Frugal Git Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 16 minutes ago, Lagarde's Drift said: That sounds like a great way to waste your day, theirs, and never get a job with that company in the future irrespective of pay. That would be the exact point in doing it. Except it wouldn’t be a waste of my day, I’d enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandOfConfusion Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 8 hours ago, Gbob said: Amazon employees are out on strike in Birmingham today pushing for £15 an hour. Seems a bit of a stretch for warehouse work. I monitor some of the YT channels which talk about coming to the UK for access to the NHS and better schooling for your kids minimum wage work and this came up in that feed a while ago: £13/hour to pick clothes & push a trolley around isn't bad, especially given that this is in the North of England (= low cost of rent & housing). 2 hours ago, Fromage Frais said: This its a horrible waste of time for companies also as those folks will not say no to an interview but will just not turn up. I once interviewed at a company where the first test was indeed just to turn up; the second was a kind of simple 'exam' consisting of nothing more than matching strings of characters to other stings of characters. There was one 'failure' and I found out afterwards that the only reason they do this was to quickly weed out DSS time wasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagarde's Drift Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, Frugal Git said: That would be the exact point in doing it. Except it wouldn’t be a waste of my day, I’d enjoy it. hmmm. and depending on the industry the interviewers will know others in the industry working at other companies so you could really be doing yourself a disservice. I suppose if your skills are in high demand you could act like a diva. Until the market turns around - it's funny how people talk about other people and reputation follows you around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Housepricecrash91 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I don't think wages are crashing in London. Wages are shit because they haven't kept up with the crazy inflation of the last few years, including rents and house prices. So they've crashed in real terms I guess? There are quite a few companies out there trying to pay the same as 10+ years ago though, which people obviously swerve.... but most decent companies are paying pre-pandemic wages... The gap between mid-level skilled roles and minimum wage or entry level wages has closed massively though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 To a small extent this must always have gone on - that is, having an official full-time job (paying not much), but then having a more lucrative sideline. With those $5 task sites and AI etc., this must be more and more common. The building repairs contractor who services our flat - they don't seem to have very high wages for skilled tradesmen in London, but they don't seem to have a problem in recruitment. After speaking to some of them it's apparent they appreciate the security of the permanent role (and the pension payments made), but more importantly it's not too taxing on time demands, which allows them to run their own repairs outfit on the side. It seems to be more common (and essential to pay the bills) for folk to have more than one job, but as I say maybe it's always gone on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 55 minutes ago, Lagarde's Drift said: hmmm. and depending on the industry the interviewers will know others in the industry working at other companies so you could really be doing yourself a disservice. I suppose if your skills are in high demand you could act like a diva. Until the market turns around - it's funny how people talk about other people and reputation follows you around. This is a question of integrity. For meaningful change to occur in labor valuation and workplace equity, individuals may need to make bold moves that challenge it. Otherwise, yeah £35-45k for an IT manager, 23k on a till. If I got blackballed - so be it. It's about asserting one's worth and refusing to accept less, based on principles rather than immediate job necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagarde's Drift Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Frugal Git said: This is a question of integrity. For meaningful change to occur in labor valuation and workplace equity, individuals may need to make bold moves that challenge it. Otherwise, yeah £35-45k for an IT manager, 23k on a till. If I got blackballed - so be it. It's about asserting one's worth and refusing to accept less, based on principles rather than immediate job necessity. The way to do that is to not go for the job and find one that's more appropriate? Let the market find equilibrium? Or if these are the jobs that get successful applicants and they're not shit then maybe that is the market rate? Or go to the interview and ask for what you think is correct salary but justify it in a reasoned constructive manner. You can then leave with positive impressions on both sides and they may remember you for another role if it comes up. This is not a question of integrity. It's a tantrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Lagarde's Drift said: The way to do that is to not go for the job and find one that's more appropriate? Let the market find equilibrium? Or if these are the jobs that get successful applicants and they're not shit then maybe that is the market rate? Or go to the interview and ask for what you think is correct salary but justify it in a reasoned constructive manner. You can then leave with positive impressions on both sides and they may remember you for another role if it comes up. This is not a question of integrity. It's a tantrum. I hear you, but relying on the market to self-correct is a passive move and “Market rate" is just code for "let's see how low you'll go." Negotiate, yes, but what if the starting point itself is an insult? Why not go ahead and challenge that? If standing firm on my value means I'm a pauper, but remembered for having a backbone, so be it. Better that than being remembered for how easily I rolled over. It's not just about a job; it's about setting a standard. If that ruffles feathers, maybe they needed ruffling. When a system consistently undervalues skilled labor, more decisive actions—what some might perceive as a "tantrum" - becomes a powerful form of communication. It's not merely about expressing dissatisfaction; it's about a refusal to participate in a system that fails to recognise value appropriately. Hell, maybe the interviewer themselves might realise they are getting screwed. It would be worth it for that alone. Edited March 27 by Frugal Git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan110_0 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 All I'll say is, there's going to be an almighty shock to the 50+ cohort when you're company makes you redundant and there's no jobs for you apart from minimum wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 7 minutes ago, Brendan110_0 said: no jobs for you apart from minimum wage. My peer group is having a much more difficult problem, we are all on the verge of retirement and some are being made redundant, we mostly own our own homes so don’t have a mortgage a bit of a pension coming in as well but none of us pass the screening none of us are invited to a interview, we just want beer money or going out to eat at a nice restaurant so not after a fortune The market for oldies looking for a job in Sainsbury’s or B&Q collecting trolleys is over My age group cannot believe that we are just not employable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orb Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 13 minutes ago, shlomo said: My peer group is having a much more difficult problem, we are all on the verge of retirement and some are being made redundant, we mostly own our own homes so don’t have a mortgage a bit of a pension coming in as well but none of us pass the screening none of us are invited to a interview, we just want beer money or going out to eat at a nice restaurant so not after a fortune The market for oldies looking for a job in Sainsbury’s or B&Q collecting trolleys is over My age group cannot believe that we are just not employable Get an HGV licence. I was talking to a driver who passed his test aged 56 and walked straight into a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Orb said: Get an HGV licence. I was talking to a driver who passed his test aged 56 and walked straight into a job. We are winding down, of the 4 all of us have high blood pressure, one has just had a triple bypass, one is obese and has diabetes type 1, I have diabetes t2 and the other al has t2 All of us are Londoners who have worked all our lives Only 2 of can walk more than 10,000 steps per day Edited March 27 by shlomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 5 hours ago, Mandalorian said: Imagine their shock when Amazon close the warehouse and reopen another 5 miles away. (Striking employees need not apply as Amazon know who they are and their application will immediately go into the reject pile) They recently closed their other distribution centre in the west midlands: https://www.logisticsmatters.co.uk/Amazon-close-Rugeley-distribution-centre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 7 hours ago, Wurzel Of Highbridge said: Definitely some deflation in new IT job salary's and number of positions. I would put this down to companies reducing the number of employees that they were hoarding, leading to more job seekers and fewer positions within the sector. During the COVID era, all companies were focusing on doing and selling everything online (due to lockdowns). Many of those online markets are now saturated and have been explored. https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/csharp.do#salary_trend I picked C# as it's quite a common language and good for showing IT market trends. So as a permie (as per the median) you would have been on £40k in 2005 and £55ish-k now. I thought there was supposed to be big money in I.T.!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 37 minutes ago, shlomo said: The market for oldies looking for a job in Sainsbury’s or B&Q collecting trolleys is over My age group cannot believe that we are just not employable My dad found exactly the same thing Couldnt believe that B&Q didnt want him, though he could potter about telling young people how to paint/do joinery etc. Another job his cohort seemed to think was an easy, guaranteed, job was "police driver". They all reckoned there was an easy, no pressure, job driving "stuff" from place to place for the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 13 minutes ago, reddog said: So as a permie (as per the median) you would have been on £40k in 2005 and £55ish-k now. I thought there was supposed to be big money in I.T.!! There is reasonable money, you just cannot be passive about getting it. The subtext behind my points on ruthlessly asserting my worth in the other posts was just that. But if people want to be passive, £55k it is. I was that exact person until I was 38. Edited March 27 by Frugal Git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddog Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Frugal Git said: There is reasonable money, you just cannot be passive about getting it. The subtext behind my points on ruthlessly asserting my worth in the other posts was just that. But if people want to be passive, £55k it is. Yeah, I work on I.T. and understand you can get more than that, the problem is it can be hard to separate work from the rest of your life if you start earning more money. (Even if you want to you colleagues my drag you into a continuously on work culture). Although saying that, I'm sure there are plenty of managers paying their developers £55k, that think they are paying them the earth and can expect anything they want in return. EDIT: Also my point was more about the Salary only going up by £15k in 19 years. Edited March 27 by reddog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 23 minutes ago, shlomo said: We are winding down, of the 4 all of us have high blood pressure, one has just had a triple bypass, one is obese and has diabetes type 1, I have diabetes t2 and the other al has t2 All of us are Londoners who have worked all our lives Only 2 of can walk more than 10,000 steps per day I was wondering why companies/agencies are so averse to interviewing/recruiting oldsters. They often have a great set of skills, know how to be punctual and reliable and (despite some claims on here) are quite happy to work for reasonable rates in return for a steady number. But you have highlighted what must be a big concern. That 50/60 year old may just be about to hit health issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, Trampa501 said: I was wondering why companies/agencies are so averse to interviewing/recruiting oldsters. They often have a great set of skills, know how to be punctual and reliable and (despite some claims on here) are quite happy to work for reasonable rates in return for a steady number. But you have highlighted what must be a big concern. That 50/60 year old may just be about to hit health issues. They can only type one letter per second and are likely useless at Excel. ✓ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, reddog said: Yeah, I work on I.T. and understand you can get more than that, the problem is it can be hard to separate work from the rest of your life if you start earning more money. (Even if you want to you colleagues my drag you into a continuously on work culture). Although saying that, I'm sure there are plenty of managers paying their developers £55k, that think they are paying them the earth and can expect anything they want in return. Honestly - it's almost the opposie. the work life balance hasn't altered at all. The higher you're paid, the more respected you are, the more agency you have to dictate your terms etc etc. Probably one of the best ever posters on here @wish I could afford one, used to post exactly how he achieved financial independence by being exactly that type of person. He did not wait for the 'market rate' to adjust to what his value was. His example was what I ended up following. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, Stewy said: They can only type one letter per second and are likely useless at Excel. ✓ They probably invented/developed Excel! You'd have a better point stating they don't know how to market with the likes of Tik Tok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewy Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Trampa501 said: They probably invented/developed Excel! You'd have a better point stating they don't know how to market with the likes of Tik Tok. I bet only one in a thousand of 55+ y/o know who do a clever Vlookup+concatenate combination, or Averageifs.. ✓ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkey Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 6 minutes ago, Trampa501 said: I was wondering why companies/agencies are so averse to interviewing/recruiting oldsters. They often have a great set of skills, know how to be punctual and reliable and (despite some claims on here) are quite happy to work for reasonable rates in return for a steady number. But you have highlighted what must be a big concern. That 50/60 year old may just be about to hit health issues. But the government wants us all to work til 70 so even at 55 there is still 15 years odd left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Stewy said: I bet only one in a thousand of 55+ y/o know who do a clever Vlookup+concatenate combination, or Averageifs.. ✓ You're not impressing anyone until you start talking about conditional formatting/pivot tables/data validation techniques, and even then it's all fairly basic stuff anyone (even "oldies") who claim to be experienced in Excel would know. There will also be folk (old or young) who have real experience of manipulating data sets with databases, who are p**ing themselves with laughter at your boasting. When you find out eventually you effectively know nothing, that will be the start of wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, Stewy said: They can only type one letter per second and are likely useless at Excel. ✓ Typing one letter per second sounds hyperbolic... almost hypersonic. An average letter is about 500 words long - so that would require keys to be pressed at about 3kHz. If a candidate were useless at Excel, in line with mainstream IT opinion, I'd see that as correlating positively with IT competence. The last thing any business needs is someone who, faced with (almost any) tasks, turns to Excel while presuming this will result in a quality outcome. If you disagree with me, perhaps you can post an Excel scatter plot showing the correlation between the use of Excel and incompetent disasters that resulted in substantial loss. For bonus marks, you could embed it into a PowerPoint presentation to ensure optimum credibility - alongside a scatter plot demonstrating the correlation between PowerPoint presentations and business failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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