State pension should be linked to wages

[winkie]

Those with the biggest hands the highest income will have the largest tax relief private pension pots.......why should they also have the biggest no means tested state pensions on top and all the benefits that are tied into it......so a strong no I say.

[scottbeard]

1 hour ago, steve99 said:

However, as it stands our state pension is one of the lowest in the western world. I have a min wage friend in Austria who's state pension is linked to his wages (as well as much lower living costs, eg his rent including energy and heating, council tax etc is less than we pay for ongoing costs  in an outrightly owned but modest, cheap house in the midlands never mind his transport costs of 30Euros a month for the whole city). His pension will be much higher than ours than ours. I agree in principal but we need to also get rid of employer pensions at the same time. Min pension in that case needs to be far higher.

I think that's a terrible idea - instead of being partially dependent on the whim of future governments for our standard of living in retirement we become completely dependant upon them?!

The whole reason cross-country pensions comparisons are bad is because the UK has generally better employer pensions than other countries.  I'd rather see them made better still than abolished.

[kzb]

1 hour ago, winkie said:

Those with the biggest hands the highest income will have the largest tax relief private pension pots.......why should they also have the biggest no means tested state pensions on top and all the benefits that are tied into it......so a strong no I say.

Well bear in mind they've just had to increase the tax relief for the richest pensioners, because all the medics were retiring too early.

So it was all about protecting our NHS again.

[winkie]

27 minutes ago, kzb said:

Well bear in mind they've just had to increase the tax relief for the richest pensioners, because all the medics were retiring too early.

So it was all about protecting our NHS again.

What has that got to do with anything.

Edited December 15, 2023 by winkie

[jiltedjen]

Can’t compare UK pensions to other countries Its a bit of a falsehood.

Other countries don’t have such drastic wealth concentrations into the oldest cohorts.

UK pensioners are very very wealthy, and they had a ridiculously good run. Not to mention the country shut down to protect them.

pensions should be cut and then hard-linked to a suitable fraction take-home wages of average earners. 

private pensions for over 40’s should be taxed heavily as a claw-back (taxes progressively higher for each decade older they are). 

everything I have been saying has slowly been filtering through to reality also.

you just can’t have half the country working full time deeply in debt and struggling, and the other half being very wealthy and moaning that poorer pensioners in other countries get more.

but I guess reality will dawn eventually.

that wealth discrepancy between generations won’t last much longer, and it does mean many 50-somethings now just won’t have the retirement they imagined.

all the lip service to the older generations will quickly be reserved once the next party takes charge.

Check out this video where he also alludes to coming changes

New statesmen 

I guess the reason pensioners are worried about their pension being linked to working peoples take home pay, is they know full well they would have to face reality also.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by jiltedjen

[Insane]

12 minutes ago, jiltedjen said:

that wealth discrepancy between generations won’t last much longer, and it does mean many 50-somethings now just won’t have the retirement they imagined.

all the lip service to the older generations will quickly be reserved once the next party takes charge.

Check out this video where he also alludes to coming changes

New statesmen 

I guess the reason pensioners are worried about their pension being linked to working peoples take home pay, is they know full well they would have to face reality also.

Don't worry you will be over 50 very soon yourself. Until then why not try and enjoy your younger life instead of being so hung up about those older than yourself. 

[Chunketh]

2 hours ago, Insane said:

Don't worry you will be over 50 very soon yourself. Until then why not try and enjoy your younger life instead of being so hung up about those older than yourself. 

Not being funny but I am at the precipice of that boundary myself. Let me look through my binoculars....

Having planned for my own retirement, the state will withdraw my "entitlement" to a state pension, through means testing as I have done exactly what they asked me to do and paid into a SIPP. I have paid very aggressively into said SIPP because that made sense and that is what the government wanted me to do. 

The upshot of this will be that I get ****** all from the state, despite having paid "into" other folks pensions my entire life.

• Explain how I am wrong.
• Explain how this isn't exactly what the younger generation are now clued into, and pissed off about.
• Explain how it is, that just "paying stamp" entitles you to such a outsized return on investment....while we will get sweet FA.

Thanks

[RentingForever]

16 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Not being funny but I am at the precipice of that boundary myself. Let me look through my binoculars....

Having planned for my own retirement, the state will withdraw my "entitlement" to a state pension, through means testing as I have done exactly what they asked me to do and paid into a SIPP. I have paid very aggressively into said SIPP because that made sense and that is what the government wanted me to do. 

The upshot of this will be that I get ****** all from the state, despite having paid "into" other folks pensions my entire life.

• Explain how I am wrong.
• Explain how this isn't exactly what the younger generation are now clued into, and pissed off about.
• Explain how it is, that just "paying stamp" entitles you to such a outsized return on investment....while we will get sweet FA.

Thanks

Because paying for the feckless seems to be the way we're all heading now. Today's news is that we're paying a new supplement to cover their unpaid energy bills: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/15/ofgem-plans-household-charge-to-help-energy-firms-recover-bad-debts

[Insane]

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

Having planned for my own retirement, the state will withdraw my "entitlement" to a state pension,

What are you on about? You will still get your state pension, since when did paying into a SIPP exclude you from a state pension? 

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

The upshot of this will be that I get ****** all from the state, despite having paid "into" other folks pensions my entire life.

Repeating yourself there well I won't repeat the answer just see the one above. 

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

Explain how I am wrong.

Already done that.

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

Explain how this isn't exactly what the younger generation are now clued into, and pissed off about.

Some of the young like the poster who started this thread want to see the state pension massively reduced. So they are actively calling for their own state pension to be reduced or stopped completely. There are no plans to do this but young people asking for it to happen is like Turkeys asking for Christmas. 

1 hour ago, Chunketh said:

Explain how it is, that just "paying stamp" entitles you to such a outsized return on investment....while we will get sweet FA.

What are you on about when is the state pension going to be scrapped? Please enlighten me? 

[Insane]

1 hour ago, RentingForever said:

Because paying for the feckless seems to be the way we're all heading now. Today's news is that we're paying a new supplement to cover their unpaid energy bills: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/15/ofgem-plans-household-charge-to-help-energy-firms-recover-bad-debts

Yes the feckless not the pensioners unpaid bills. They have not given a breakdown of what aged people are not paying their bills, but I would guess it would be across all age ranges not just pensioners. 

[Chunketh]

1 minute ago, Insane said:

What are you on about? You will still get your state pension, since when did paying into a SIPP exclude you from a state pension? 

Repeating yourself there well I won't repeat the answer just see the one above. 

Already done that.

Some of the young like the poster who started this thread want to see the state pension massively reduced. So they are actively calling for their own state pension to be reduced or stopped completely. There are no plans to do this but young people asking for it to happen is like Turkeys asking for Christmas. 

What are you on about when is the state pension going to be scrapped? Please enlighten me? 

If you think the 50 or below cohort will get a non means tested pension, ive got news for you.

IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

[Insane]

1 minute ago, Chunketh said:

If you think the 50 or below cohort will get a non means tested pension, ive got news for you.

IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN

Wow I thought you were going to give me dates and hard facts of when the state pension is going to be withdrawn from those who have a SIPP. From the way you wrote your other post that is what I was expecting. 

But your just guessing the future then writing as if it is fact. 

You do realise that if there is any reduction to the state pension for the cohort below 50 you are the ones cheering it on from the side lines. When you should be the ones more than anyone else demanding that it stays in place. 

[Chunketh]

5 minutes ago, Insane said:

Wow I thought you were going to give me dates and hard facts of when the state pension is going to be withdrawn from those who have a SIPP. From the way you wrote your other post that is what I was expecting. 

But your just guessing the future then writing as if it is fact. 

You do realise that if there is any reduction to the state pension for the cohort below 50 you are the ones cheering it on from the side lines. When you should be the ones more than anyone else demanding that it stays in place. 

Its going to be withdrawn. Any fool can see that. I pay a third of my salary into a private pension for a reason. 

Its totally unsustainable and halfwits like you demanding a percentage of national average wage are just accelerating it.

 

[Insane]

6 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Its going to be withdrawn. Any fool can see that. I pay a third of my salary into a private pension for a reason. 

When?

6 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Its totally unsustainable and halfwits like you demanding a percentage of national average wage are just accelerating it.

No it is not totally unsustainable where did you get that idea from? You do seem easy to fool. 

I have never demanding a percentage of the national wage (what percentage did I ask for?) I am like everyone else that is not drawing the state pension yet I have another 7 years to wait to draw it. But unlike you I am not calling for it to be reduced or stopped only a halfwit defeatist would call for that and state that they already know it is going to happen. 

 

[Chunketh]

1 minute ago, Insane said:

When?

No it is not totally unsustainable where did you get that idea from? You do seem easy to fool. 

I have never demanding a percentage of the national wage (what percentage did I ask for?) I am like everyone else that is not drawing the state pension yet I have another 7 years to wait to draw it. But unlike you I am not calling for it to be reduced or stopped only a halfwit defeatist would call for that and state that they already know it is going to happen. 

 

Im not calling for it to be removed at all, but the triple lock and the subject of this thread will kill it off sooner rather than later. I'd rather the triple lock was abolished and that the state pension became a baseline income stream. I really would prefer it stays, genuinely. 

Its a simple fact. You cant have folk paying in minimum contributions (as a large percentage do) and pulling 12-15k a year. This shit ISNT invested. Its paid from MY paycheque to the pensions, directly. Who is going to pay for mine? Immigrants? The newly born?

Demographics matter.

[Insane]

3 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Im not calling for it to be removed at all

You have already told me that only a halfwit could not see it not happening. You have decided and stated that it is going to happen. 

4 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

but the triple lock and the subject of this thread will kill it off

There you have stated it again. 

6 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

I really would prefer it stays, genuinely. 

Well stop telling us all that it is going to be scrapped would be a help in making sure it is kept. 

6 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Its a simple fact. You cant have folk paying in minimum contributions (as a large percentage do) and pulling 12-15k a year. This shit ISNT invested. Its paid from MY paycheque to the pensions, directly. Who is going to pay for mine? Immigrants? The newly born?

 I left school in 1979 I did not know what National Insurance was until it appeared on my first wage slip. I asked others and was told that it was for the NHS and the state pension. During that conversation in a works tea room there were people saying the state pension would be scrapped before I got mine, that was 44 years ago yet it is still here. So like everyone else the money those people paid in back then and mine was not invested it was used to pay out pensions for others. 

Its paid from MY paycheque to the pensions, directly.

Stop playing the victim we all pay in and if still alive will draw the state pension, you are not paying for the whole of the UK's state pension. But you are determined that you won't be getting one. You will be getting one. 

National insurance contributions are the measure the government use to determine how much state pension a person receives. However those people will have made massive tax contributions all their lives and will carry on paying taxes during retirement. It is not a case that you pay your stamp and that is the only money you have paid in it is just a way to measure (not a good one) what someone is going to get. 

 Who is going to pay for mine? Immigrants? The newly born?

Well yes that is the way it has always worked. Are you saying that the newly born today will never earn any money and never pay any taxes? Are you saying that immigrants don't pay taxes? 

You sound like your the last and only person in the UK paying any tax. 

[Chunketh]

1 hour ago, Insane said:

You have already told me that only a halfwit could not see it not happening. You have decided and stated that it is going to happen. 

2 hours ago, Chunketh said:

Sigh...thats VERY different for calling it to be removed. You do understand that....right?

1 hour ago, Insane said:

There you have stated it again. 

2 hours ago, Chunketh said:

No, I have stated a simple fact. Again, NOT calling for it to be removed, just stating that unreasonable demands will kill it off. There is a difference. 

 

1 hour ago, Insane said:

Well stop telling us all that it is going to be scrapped would be a help in making sure it is kept. 

2 hours ago, Chunketh said:

Telling you hard truths isnt "jinxing" it. Its pointing out some facts. AGAIN.

Jesus, you really need to learn to read.

1 hour ago, Insane said:

Stop playing the victim we all pay in

Kinda. Paying in implies a pot. The "pot" is gone, we pay out to the recipients now. Directly.

That's kinda my point, although it seems to have totally escaped you. Along with the reasoning behind why its unsustainable.

1 hour ago, Insane said:

However those people will have made massive tax contributions all their lives

Most of them have not. If you are paid an average wage, you are a net recipient. Not a contributor.

 

1 hour ago, Insane said:

Well yes that is the way it has always worked. Are you saying that the newly born today will never earn any money and never pay any taxes? Are you saying that immigrants don't pay taxes? 

No, I am saying that the young are not replacing the old in anywhere near close to the numbers that are required. We have a toxic culture with regard to immigration, as you should already know. We are on the HPC forum after all...

Genuine question  - are you being deliberately stupid? This shit is ******ing obvious. Yet you clearly have a really hard time grasping it.

[kzb]

8 hours ago, winkie said:

What has that got to do with anything.

I could say the same to you.

[kzb]

7 hours ago, jiltedjen said:

Can’t compare UK pensions to other countries Its a bit of a falsehood.

Other countries don’t have such drastic wealth concentrations into the oldest cohorts.

UK pensioners are very very wealthy, and they had a ridiculously good run. Not to mention the country shut down to protect them.

pensions should be cut and then hard-linked to a suitable fraction take-home wages of average earners. 

private pensions for over 40’s should be taxed heavily as a claw-back (taxes progressively higher for each decade older they are). 

everything I have been saying has slowly been filtering through to reality also.

you just can’t have half the country working full time deeply in debt and struggling, and the other half being very wealthy and moaning that poorer pensioners in other countries get more.

but I guess reality will dawn eventually.

that wealth discrepancy between generations won’t last much longer, and it does mean many 50-somethings now just won’t have the retirement they imagined.

all the lip service to the older generations will quickly be reserved once the next party takes charge.

Check out this video where he also alludes to coming changes

New statesmen 

I guess the reason pensioners are worried about their pension being linked to working peoples take home pay, is they know full well they would have to face reality also.

 

JJ, your parents intentionally spending your inheritance on flippancy is a hard thing to take.  I can understand that. 

I am lucky, in that our mother is determined to defend my, and my siblings', inheritance, such as it is.

Please understand that punishing pensioners generally is not going to help you.  You need counselling to get over this unfairness you have suffered.

[kzb]

15 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

Most of them have not. If you are paid an average wage, you are a net recipient. Not a contributor.

Every UK citizen has contributed to the growth of UK PLC.

The size of the business (i.e. UK GDP) has grown hugely, as a result of everyones' past contributions.

Those "contributions" are not measured simply in tax/NI receipts.  It is much wider than that.  Raising the next generation for one.

The people who actually manage to shortcut that system are immigrants.  Everyone who steps off a plane immediately receives the one-67 millionth benefit of centuries of business and infrastructure growth, without their family ever contributing to it in the past.  Why don't you think about that ?

 

[Trampa501]

6 hours ago, kzb said:

Every UK citizen has contributed to the growth of UK PLC.

The size of the business (i.e. UK GDP) has grown hugely, as a result of everyones' past contributions.

Those "contributions" are not measured simply in tax/NI receipts.  It is much wider than that.  Raising the next generation for one.

The people who actually manage to shortcut that system are immigrants.  Everyone who steps off a plane immediately receives the one-67 millionth benefit of centuries of business and infrastructure growth, without their family ever contributing to it in the past.  Why don't you think about that ?

 

Other way around (I was wondering when the usual suspects would revert to the "it's all the fault of immigruntz" line) actually.

The person stepping off the plane has not had the UK state spending 16 years of education (sometimes more) on them. Nor child benefit/unemployment or other benefit. Nor the umpteen billions that state and councils have spent on the environment the native born here benefits from (of course some here deny it's a benefit). Yet in many cases they can step almost straight away into a role that benefits our society, whether it's as a bus driver, store keeper, nurse, care worker etc etc.  And yes, if they bring kids they also help to "raise the next generation".

I'm sure there will be plenty of replies here who disagree and think immigrants "don't contribute". Yet it's very rare that any of those on this board who claim that, can show they currently contribute themselves. It's always "yes I did in the past", or "but the tax system is too harsh so I take it easy".

[jiltedjen]

equally how much ‘growth’ was actually growth?

how much was a one time 30 year financial bubble and housing bubble?

so I would claim that the older cohort just damaged the UK’s prospects for their own gain. And now leave a shit economy for the young to try and survive in. 

and yet still demand better and better pensions, while having a massively outsized % of wealth.

I just think the financial pain should be spread out and wealth better distributed, which means the old have to get substantially poorer and the young made much better off.

hence why the fortunes of the old need to be tied to the fortunes of the young. 

Not just in pensions, but many other aspects of life. 

Better to vote as a coherent unit as a ‘whole’ in the UK, so we can all end up better off.

The old used up all our oil, no wealth fund, nothing. They enjoyed the tax cuts. But didn’t invest in infrastructure, we have crumbling schools etc.

The old should suffer for their choices and their voting, lack of investment, and brexit decisions.

The UK shut down to help the old already. There comes a point when it’s not acceptable to keep shovelling money to the old. It’s obvious really. It’s common sense.

politics will soon reflect this, policies such as free childcare hours etc, it’s the thing edge of a wedge.

tripple lock may survive this election, but be rolled back on soon afterwards, best time to do it, when you have 5 years to benefit from the savings (to be used on the young).

if anything a lot of what I post is screaming at the moon. But it’s also a warning of what’s coming.

tripple lock will be scrapped. The old won’t be protected. There will be loads more pro-young policies, and wealth taxes (instead of income taxes).

can’t keep cranking up the costs of the old on the struggling working population. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by jiltedjen

[Nick Cash]

17 hours ago, kzb said:

Well bear in mind they've just had to increase the tax relief for the richest pensioners, because all the medics were retiring too early.

So it was all about protecting our NHS again.

Not just the NHS though. We are allegedly short of workers over 55.
 

If you’ve got more than £23k saved then you’re expected to pay for your own care. Given this can easily be £100k a year for 5 or so years is it any surprise that anyone who can wants to maximise their self funding pot. Tax rates need to reflect this for the good of everyone. 

There are only 2 logical strategies re funding care. Either spend everything over the threshold and use the state or save, save, save and hope to have a few pennies left above the threshold as you die. At least with self funded care you can have a much better quality of very late life.

[debtlessmanc]

17 hours ago, jiltedjen said:

Other countries don’t have such drastic wealth concentrations into the oldest cohorts.

??

colleagues daughter lives in France - her neighbour (teacher) retired last at 62 on 105% of her finally salary (she taught in French overseas departments for a while and this boosts the pension apparently. 
meanwhile my wife 90 year old friend (stayed with them on school year abroad in 1970s) is a former civil servant. Owns a villa worth millions in the cote d’azure and, until recently, holidayed every year in south east asia - retired at 60.

France has huge and growing slums of the poor too.

I don’t know people on here get these rose tinted spectacles about other countries from.

my take in the original post… we already have the problem that the sitting govt view national insurance as to be spent now and the growing pensions to be spent by a future govt they do not care a out.

this will magnify it several times. Unless the money is truly invested in a sovereign investment fund- no way.

Edited December 16, 2023 by debtlessmanc

[Nick Cash]

18 hours ago, jiltedjen said:

 

 

private pensions for over 40’s should be taxed heavily as a claw-back (taxes progressively higher for each decade older they are). 

 

 

You have posted so much nonsense over the last 6 months, I can’t take you seriously.  But this is unbelievable. 

Your life must be severely screwed up if you believe what you have posted above.