anonguest Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, jonb2 said: As you can see from my post, I have no truck with Hamas. They should not exist, Then how do YOU propose dealing with them? 5 hours ago, jonb2 said: but neither should the current Fascist genocidal government of Israel. Both being extremist wing-tips. You should look up the definition of 'genocide'. Please show me an example of the Israeli government committing genocide. Edited November 15, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) On 14/11/2023 at 13:24, jonb2 said: It's always about the proportionality. So the 70,000 or so UK civilian dead in WW2 vs 2+ million civilian dead in Germany and the 12,000 U.S civilian dead vs up to 800K dead in Japan means the allies were the bad guys? Really?! On 14/11/2023 at 13:24, jonb2 said: The Israeli leadership seem to see Palestinians as... sub-human animals. No. They don't. BUT they do, and arguably justifiably so, regard the majority of Palestinians as sympathisers and de facto complicit collaborators of sub-human animals (Hamas). In much the same way a huge proportion of Brits regarded the majority of Germans who weren't Nazi party members complicit in the actions of the Nazi regime. On 14/11/2023 at 13:24, jonb2 said: Violence will never solve the 100 year problem. Ever. So, exterminating countless thousands of die hard fanatic SS rabid Jew haters in WW2, and so removing them from German society and culture, didn't solve the problem of the Nazis? Really?! Similarly, exterminating 85K+ Islamic State fanatics in Mosul (which included loads of wives and children too) didn't solve that problem? Really?! The sad reality is that, human nature being what it is, violence is sometimes the only solution to some problems. You can ignore reality if you want to but you cannot ignore the consequences of reality. Edited November 15, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetong Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) . Edited November 15, 2023 by petetong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petetong Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, jonb2 said: As you can see from my post, I have no truck with Hamas. They should not exist, but neither should the current Fascist genocidal government of Israel. Both being extremist wing-tips. An Israeli-Arab Lawmaker on the Stifling of Anti-War Voices | TIME https://time.com/6333939/israeli-arab-lawmaker-aida-touma-sliman-anti-war-gaza/?et_rid=240431980&lctg=240431980 I am trying to make the point before peace is found - both these factions need to be muzzled, chained and kennelled. It's politically expedient for those seeking justification to paint Hamas as the same as ISIS. But to understand everything from a 'humanity' POV is the way forward. To break the washing machine of death. Nothing else will work "Many Israelis, seeking to understand the horrors of Oct. 7, have turned to comparing Hamas to ISIS. The hashtag “#HamasisISIS” has trended on social media as Israeli leaders—including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu—have frequently equated the two. But scholars of Islamist movements like myself, as well as counterterrorism officials, have long understood the comparison to be false. As Gershon Baskin, who has been Israel’s lead hostage negotiator with Hamas since 2006, told me recently: “Its acts of terrorism resemble ISIS, but they don’t have the same ideology.” The first and most important difference is that Hamas is a Palestinian nationalist Islamist movement. That fused, dual identity differentiates it from ISIS, which is a transnational pan-Islamist movement that wants to gather a universal umma, or community of Muslim believers, into an “Islamic state” untethered from any nationalist project. Hamas, on the other hand, has more localized demands: it identifies “liberation of all of Palestine” from what it terms “the Zionist enemy” as its core goal in its 2017 Charter. There is also the inconvenient fact that ISIS “literally views Hamas as apostates” because of its support from Shia Iran, as the Washington Institute for Near East Policy’s Aaron Zelin recently posted on X. A second key difference is their relative religious extremism. Hamas is religiously conservative, but it does not ruthlessly harass or kill non-Muslims in Gaza simply because of their faith or religious comportment. It tolerates women who don’t wear the hijab, people who sport tattoos, and teenagers who listen to American music. Christians and churches also coexist with Muslims in the Hamas-run enclave. None of this would have been possible under ISIS, a far more religiously extremist organization that tortured and mutilated people to compel their adherence to an ultra-radical version of Islam." Hamas Is Not ISIS. Here's Why That Matters | TIME https://time.com/6329776/hamas-isis-gaza/ Hmm who's going to know more about Hamas.. the son of one of its founders who was a member of it in its inner circle or some circle jerk western journalist... Edited November 15, 2023 by petetong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 46 minutes ago, petetong said: Hmm who's going to know more about Hamas.. the son of one of its founders who was a member of it in its inner circle or some circle jerk western journalist... Indeed. But why does anyone even need to resort to listening the son of one of Hamas' founders? Hamas itself openly proclaims all you need to know to tell the difference between them and the Israelis. Hamas's own charter proclaims: The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel Hamas Charter - Wikipedia I am not aware of any part of the constitution of Israel calling for the destruction of Palestinians! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 11 hours ago, petetong said: Hmm who's going to know more about Hamas.. the son of one of its founders who was a member of it in its inner circle or some circle jerk western journalist... It's wasn't about Hamas. It's about the overall situation and the subject is Benjamin must go. To quote from the article: How do you see this ending? There are signs that they are starting to go for a ceasefire. I don’t think it’s going to end, really. Netanyahu understands very clearly that the day the war ends, his career is also going to end. There is a lot of criticism and the voices are more and more clear about him—that he should resign, that he should leave his position, that he is responsible for what happened. So he understands that very clearly and I’m afraid that he will look badly for a victory photo or a victory moment that can convince people to keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, anonguest said: So the 70,000 or so UK civilian dead in WW2 vs 2+ million civilian dead in Germany and the 12,000 U.S civilian dead vs up to 800K dead in Japan means the allies were the bad guys? Really?! No. They don't. BUT they do, and arguably justifiably so, regard the majority of Palestinians as sympathisers and de facto complicit collaborators of sub-human animals (Hamas). In much the same way a huge proportion of Brits regarded the majority of Germans who weren't Nazi party members complicit in the actions of the Nazi regime. So, exterminating countless thousands of die hard fanatic SS rabid Jew haters in WW2, and so removing them from German society and culture, didn't solve the problem of the Nazis? Really?! Similarly, exterminating 85K+ Islamic State fanatics in Mosul (which included loads of wives and children too) didn't solve that problem? Really?! The sad reality is that, human nature being what it is, violence is sometimes the only solution to some problems. You can ignore reality if you want to but you cannot ignore the consequences of reality. Come back to me in a few years and tell me how successful the Israeli campaign has been. We've been here before - many, many times. Edited November 16, 2023 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiggerUK Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 The first 9mins 15secs talks about Ukraine. Forward to 9.15 for a run down on Gaza My local Labour party met and discussed Gaza. Everybody wanted an immediate ceasefire. To any Labour Party members on here I'll repeat my warning to comrades I gave at that meeting; we ARE NOT a walk in for government at the next election. Starmer not supporting the SNP amendment in parliament calling for an immediate ceasefire, just makes him sound like the Israeli governments agent in parliament. The electorate are wanting an end to this catastrophe they are witnessing every minute of the day..._ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, jonb2 said: Come back to me in a few years and tell me how successful the Israeli campaign has been. We've been here before - many, many times. OH. NO. WE. HAVE NOT! Not remotely. Not by a wide margin! In respect of both the instigating events of October 7th and the ensuing response. What is currently in progress is many orders of magnitude beyond anything the Israelis have ever done before. And THAT, very possibly, is where Hamas 'miscalculated'. They likely assumed their actions of October 7th, including taking massive numbers of civilian hostages (compared with previous one or two captured soldiers) would be met with the 'usual' response - bombing of a few strategic buildings, more stringent blockade, round up or even assassination of some Hamas political figures outside of Gaza, etc. AND subsequent negotiations to release the hostages in exchange for their compadres elsewhere. The Israelis made it pretty clear from day one the stern warning that "what has been before will be no more". Whilst I have no doubt the Israelis will be making every militarily reasonable effort to free the hostages (as they did successfully for just one of their female conscripts just a week ago) I suspect that this time, privately in the corridors of power at least, the mindset is that IF the hostages end up dead then they will just a sad part of the total casualties of the October 7th massacre - and that sole blame for their deaths will, quite rightly of course, lie at the feet of Hamas for taking them captive in the first place. I suspect that having seen the failed result of past prisoner exchanges (with the current hunted chief scumbag in Gaza himself having been released from a murder conviction in one of those exchanges!) they have decided to no longer allow the whole nation to be held to ransom over just a few people. Appeasement is likely over forever in their minds. Their continued absolute insistence on no ceasefire until all the hostages are released supports this view. Hamas, apparently, with their backs now increasingly up against a wall just the other day offered to release 70 of them and, probably to their surprise, Israel rejected it point blank. I suspect the majority of the hostages will tragically be killed if their Hamas captives finally realise their end really is nigh. Many are probably dead already. Netanyahu is finished politically - and he knows it. He has little to lose by doing what he believes is the right thing in the bigger scheme of things, and 'sacrificing' the hostages IF he has to. Similarly for many of the other top brass there whose heads are also likely on the block of the inevitable post-war enquiry. Edited November 16, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, DiggerUK said: Starmer not supporting the SNP amendment in parliament calling for an immediate ceasefire, just makes him sound like the Israeli governments agent in parliament. No. It makes him sound like a calm level headed lawyer - who knows his international law a lot better than your typical grassroots hot headed union rep/school teacher/social worker party activist types, for whom policy is guided by feelings more than facts. 12 hours ago, DiggerUK said: The electorate are wanting an end to this catastrophe they are witnessing every minute of the day..._ Well, you need to get out more and talk with non-Labour party members more often. I think you'll find the the majority of the non-muslim public put Gaza as #934 in the list of things they really truly care about. I hear people gripe about the trains, cost of food and even the state of the roads. Haven't heard anyone, yet, moan about Gaza in a political sense (i.e. will influence how they vote in the next election). And, frankly, IF it's #1 thing for you - in deciding how you will vote - then you deserve whatever domestic sh*t comes your way after the election. Evesdropping on private conversation in passing in public (e.g. sitting on a train, etc.) and I have heard only one instance of people agreeing that there should be a ceasefire (unsurprisingly two youthful and naive university students who were clearly ignorant of so many facts). The majority of people I have overheard express any sort of opinion on the topic have broadly fallen in the to "they should wipe the (Hamas) f*ckers out" category. People moaning about Gaza, and claiming it will sway their vote at the next election, remind me of all those muppets who, in the run up to the Tony Blair victory of 1997, were banging on about the importance of banning fox hunting - then complaining about unaffordable house prices barely a few years later! Edited November 16, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 5 hours ago, DiggerUK said: The first 9mins 15secs talks about Ukraine. Forward to 9.15 for a run down on Gaza My local Labour party met and discussed Gaza. Everybody wanted an immediate ceasefire. To any Labour Party members on here I'll repeat my warning to comrades I gave at that meeting; we ARE NOT a walk in for government at the next election. Starmer not supporting the SNP amendment in parliament calling for an immediate ceasefire, just makes him sound like the Israeli governments agent in parliament. The electorate are wanting an end to this catastrophe they are witnessing every minute of the day..._ Starmer's wife is Jewish. UK Labour leader Starmer opens up about his family's Jewish traditions | The Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-leader-starmer-opens-up-about-his-familys-jewish-traditions/ Who is Keir Starmer's wife, Lady Victoria Starmer? | Politics News | Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-keir-starmers-wife-lady-victoria-starmer-12981688 Who is Keir Starmer's wife, Lady Starmer? | Tatler https://www.tatler.com/article/who-is-keir-starmers-wife-victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 2 hours ago, anonguest said: OH. NO. WE. HAVE NOT! Not remotely. Not by a wide margin! In respect of both the instigating events of October 7th and the ensuing response. It's not the scale. That's inevitable. It's the hatred on both sides which guarantees escalation. When nobody listens, things just get louder. Why does Hamas exist? They are like buses, they'll be another along in a minute. And so it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, jonb2 said: Why does Hamas exist? That's like asking "why does insanity exist". It just does. The issue is whether you are prepared to deal with it before consequences of it kills you. 15 hours ago, jonb2 said: They are like buses, they'll be another along in a minute. And so it goes. So, we'll kill them too. We're getting better at it. Edited November 17, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 22 hours ago, jonb2 said: Starmer's wife is Jewish. UK Labour leader Starmer opens up about his family's Jewish traditions | The Times of Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-leader-starmer-opens-up-about-his-familys-jewish-traditions/ Who is Keir Starmer's wife, Lady Victoria Starmer? | Politics News | Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-keir-starmers-wife-lady-victoria-starmer-12981688 Who is Keir Starmer's wife, Lady Starmer? | Tatler https://www.tatler.com/article/who-is-keir-starmers-wife-victoria Hey. Don't beat about the bush. Why don't you just come out say what you really mean! You do realise the stupid and ugly point you are clearly insinuating here works both ways, don't you?! Anyone married to a muslim..... Edited November 17, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 17, 2023 Share Posted November 17, 2023 (edited) The bodies of two of the Israeli hostages, who were taken to Gaza alive and well, have been found in the last 24 hours. Both of them in the grounds of the Shifa hospital. But all those WHO and UN staff, 'doctors' & 'journalists' - all at the hospital and/or supposedly claiming to know what was going on there - and none of them ever saw a thing. Meanwhile the media, like BBC and Channel4 News, are too busy acting like children to ask any of the right questions. Edited November 17, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexton Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 16 hours ago, anonguest said: The bodies of two of the Israeli hostages, who were taken to Gaza alive and well, have been found in the last 24 hours. Both of them in the grounds of the Shifa hospital. Israeli snipers get them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, sexton said: Israeli snipers get them? Yeah sure. Hamas let 'em out for a stroll to have a fag and Israeli snipers decided the women were Hamas in disguise and so decided to shoot them. Jeeezus. Have you any idea how stupid you sound?! If you've got nothing sensible to say or contribute here then don't say anything at all. Have you seen the death photo of the 19-year old victim that Hamas released before her body was found? One of her feet was, it appears, cut off and the other seriously mangled. In any case, you're completely missing or, more likely methinks, deliberately ignoring the point I was making. The hostages were found within the grounds of the hospital. A place where there was supposed to be free of Hamas activity taking place, according to Hamas. And none of the supposedly Hamas independent people (UN or WHO representatives, doctors, nurses, etc.) saw anything. Yeah sure. 'Innocent' civilians my ar*e! They were taken into Gaza physically well and without scratch. But were found in a state far from that. I'm sure Hamas played no part in that, right? I'm sure you think they just fell down the stairs? Edited November 18, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexton Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 45 minutes ago, anonguest said: One of her feet was, it appears, cut off and the other seriously mangled. OK. Sounds more like an israeli bomb or bulldozer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, sexton said: Sounds more like an israeli bomb or bulldozer. Sounds more like you're completely f*cked in the head! Many of the women hostages had their feet/ankles cut by Hamas when taken captive on October 7th (almost certainly to stop them from subsequently fleeing). You've perhaps seen the brief broadcasted footage of a teenage woman captive, with bloodied tracksuit bottom, being manhandled and bundled into a 4x4 in Gaza? Most people, I'm guessing, probably focused on her bloodstained rear. Have a look at that footage again. You'll see one of her ankles was cut. Edited November 18, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 Every move is a losing move. https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israel-and-americas-growing-zugzwang Israel and America's Growing Zugzwang We can now safely say that our previous reading of the Israeli situation appears to be accurate. The U.S. is acting as a rudderless ship, rushing to the MidEast out of reflex with no clear gameplan, and is in fact terrified of Iranian escalations. We now know this due to a confluence of new data. Firstly, recall when I said you’d know how serious the U.S. was based on where it positioned its carrier group. It’s now turned out that the USS Eisenhower is positioned off the coast of Oman exactly where I said it would be if the U.S. were not serious about doing anything more than posturing. That’s because it’s too distant to strike the most important targets of Iran, but is safely out of reach of a majority of coastal missile defense systems. Iranian proxies have continued to strike U.S. bases including another major blow as of this writing on a U.S. base: ⚡️⚡️⚡️Iranian proxies covered a hangar with equipment at the US Harir military base in Iraq. There is no information on the victims. Iranian proxies vow to attack the United States as Israel continues its genocide in Gaza. Where is the air defense??⚡️⚡️⚡️ Meanwhile casualties continue to go up. Not only have the earlier ~40 now risen to ~55, but there were reports of U.S. soldiers deaths in another strike days ago, now being hushed up. My point is that, Iran is striking major blows on the U.S. And how does Biden respond? That’s right—this is my second reason as proof. Biden is now offering to bribe Iran with a massive $10B as concession to make them stop escalating. Why is that? As I wrote before, it’s primarily because the U.S. is not ready for true full-scale war, doesn’t have the ammo or assets in place, nor has the resolve—as there is a full-blown mutiny inside the State Department as more and more officials side with Palestinians and believe the U.S. to be in the wrong. The tide is slowly being turned against Israel with many in the Western structures now seeing a ceasefire and some sort of political solution as best. In fact, some have opined that the West is signaling this to Israel via its control over the media. There has been a very bizarre raft of new reports from Western MSM stalwarts like BBC and CNN that are suddenly quite critical of Israel. Some believe it’s just the networks ‘covering their own asses’ and saving themselves from the coming firestorm after the dust settles. However, it does appear like pressure is being put on Israel to limit its genocide. These networks do not report anything without clear guidance from above, which comes from the same globalist cartels that control Western governments. Another theory I’m partial to is that they’ve identified the writing on the wall that the genocide Israel is currently committing is condemning the entire country to an untimely end. I wrote about this several articles ago where I said that Israel is facing an existential crisis and may cease to exist in the future. Current actions represent an all out hail mary attempt to challenge fate, but may in fact accelerate that demise. The powers that be have recognized this and are panicking because Israel has always been nothing more than a neo-colonialist forward base for the Western / Atlanticist empire to dominate the Middle East and thereby the Heartland of the world. Israel’s current actions are seen as accelerating the realignment of the entire globe to such a dangerous degree that the U.S. and co. see no “off-ramp” to ending the conflict without the total loss of influence in the MidEast, as well as the handing the entire future destiny of the globe on a silver platter to Russia and China—who are being perceived as the ‘good guys’ on the right side of history as per this conflict. In yesterday’s CNN piece Jake Tapeworm, I mean Tapper, goes completely out of character slamming the “racist” Jewish supremacism of many members of Israel’s Knesset, including heavily criticizing Netanyahu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) We've by now all seen the barely veiled pure religious hatred side of 'Free Palestine' protestors. This is the face of many of the others - the typical useful idiots. The usual Tofu eating 'Just Stop Oil' loony Lefty types. Their prior Trump Derangement Syndrome now seemingly having morphed into completely irrational Israel Derangement Syndrome. Behold this old dear protesting at London Waterloo station, as an example. Let out for the day but hasn't taken her pills. Head rattling like an old washing machine. Best not to ask these types to try and explain how raping, murdering and abducting women and children equates to fighting for freedom. Their brains might explode as they try to compute it! Edited November 19, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexton Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 1 hour ago, anonguest said: Best not to ask these types to try and explain how raping, murdering and abducting women and children equates to fighting for freedom. It makes the occupying power question if the occupation is worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, sexton said: Best not to ask these types to try and explain how raping, murdering and abducting women and children equates to fighting for freedom. 45 minutes ago, sexton said: It makes the occupying power question if the occupation is worthwhile. What occupying power? What occupation? But that aside let's indulge your lunatic logic and obscene immorality here.... IF we all kill enough traffic cops it will make the authorities question whether enforcing the traffic laws is worthwhile? Edited November 19, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) And yet another hostage turns up dead at the Al Shifa hospital. The one that Hamas said they had no presence at. 22-year-old Clemens Felix Matanga. He was from Tanzania and participated in a training program as part of an agreement between Israel and his homeland. On October 7th he and a fellow countryman were abducted to Gaza. Matanga was found dead at Shifa hospital. Edited November 19, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted November 24, 2023 Share Posted November 24, 2023 I see Zug is still pushing the wibble for his own fantasy Some facts on what is happening - the prisoner swap is both sides desperately trying to get something to paint as meeting objectives short term - Hamas originally wanted thousands of prisoners and a month long ceasefire and got told eff off. They wanted a ceasefire becausebar the leaderhip in Qatar they are being severely mauled and ground leders of military wing wiped out. - this is not a Hamas victory they are giving up their only leverage in drips to stave off shortterm annihilation - Israelis & mainly Netanyau needs hostages to stave off public unrest and him being ousted. Hamas is trying to buy time to make Khan Younis and other positions defensible and extract itsremaining leaders stuck in the IDF operational areas. Israel despite the rhetoric is trying to destroy Hamas capabilities as if they didn't there'd be another operation like 7th October. @jonb2 is correct in that you can't kill an idea but nor do you jut let the capability to strike sit there. Hamas don't want peace as no reason to exit without war, same as Netanyahu and half arsed settler nutters need conflict or they'e ******ed. That Hamas is trading parts of their only cards for 4 days, possibly a few more shows they are screwed despte all the ranting fro Qatar and desperate. That Netanyau has agreed thedealagainst the wishes of the lunatic settlergroups shows he's screwed in public opinion and desperate to stop the home protests. Two weak groups faking looking strong, Hamas in weaker slot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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