Benjamin Needs To Go

[pig]

On 27/11/2023 at 17:53, anonguest said:

Firstly, in respect of the ramblings of a 95-year old it's hardly worth responding to any more than I would the ramblings of any other 95 year old anywhere else.

But with regards the West Bank settlers....

I've said before that I think the behaviour of some of them, particularly of late, is reprehensible/disgusting.

BUT, as I've also pointed out before, their actions are not official policy of the state. If they kill a Palestinian then they face the usual judicial processes involved in any killing - and some have been convicted of serious crimes.

This contrasts with Hamas, whose explicit policy is to demonise and kill Israelis and persuade the populace to do this. Israelis do not get taught from nursery age or in their school textbooks about the need to and virtue in killing Palestinians. IDF soldiers do not get indoctrinated/brainwashed to kill Palestinians at any opportunity they can.

Thus, all those overemotional hysterical nutters here and elsewhere ridiculously ranting on about Israel committing genocide are talking complete BS.

Hamas turned the economy of Gaza into one giant rabid Jew hate machine delusionally and obsessively dedicated to the destruction of their neighbour. Whereas, as I've said repeatedly, Israel has been an overall force for good in since 1948 - and humanity owes a great deal to the contribution the country has made to the world in respect of agriculture, science, medicine, technology, etc. What have the Palestinians contributed to the world? 

 

There is no excuse for West Bank settler activity - at the very least its turning Gaza into one giant rabid Jew hate machine delusionally and obsessively dedicated to the destruction of their neighbour.  And please stop with the repetitive whataboutery. Its getting really stale and is doing the opposite of separating Israel from the accusation of batsh1t extremism.

 

[bumble bee]

CHINA'S ambassador to the UN said “enough is enough” as he joined a Security Council visit to the besieged Gaza Strip. It came after the United States veto.

[anonguest]

16 hours ago, bumble bee said:

CHINA'S ambassador to the UN said “enough is enough” as he joined a Security Council visit to the besieged Gaza Strip. It came after the United States veto.

Big words from the representative of a country involved in actual genocide of the muslims within it's own borders!

IF there was a Nobel prize for hypocrisy this chap would win it hands down!

[bumble bee]

4 hours ago, anonguest said:

Big words from the representative of a country involved in actual genocide of the muslims within it's own borders!

IF there was a Nobel prize for hypocrisy this chap would win it hands down!

Nice try to derail discussion, but back on track and to Gaza ...

 

Quote

 

UN calls for immediate ceasefire in Gaza, Biden warns Israel is losing support

The United Nations on Tuesday demanded an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in the Gaza Strip as U.S. President Joe Biden warned Israel it was losing international support because of its "indiscriminate" bombing of civilians in its war against Hamas militants.

After dire warnings by U.N. officials about a deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the 193-member U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire with 153 countries voting in favour and 23 abstaining. The U.S. and Israel, which argue a ceasefire only benefits Hamas, voted against the measure along with eight other countries.

The resolution is not binding but carries political weight, reflecting a global view on the war. The United States vetoed a similar call in the 15-member Security Council last week.

The Palestinian Authority welcomed the resolution and urged countries to pressure Israel to adopt the ceasefire.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hunger-rises-gaza-un-prepares-vote-ceasefire-resolution-2023-12-12/

 

 

[anonguest]

2 hours ago, bumble bee said:

Big words from the representative of a country involved in actual genocide of the muslims within it's own borders!

IF there was a Nobel prize for hypocrisy this chap would win it hands down!

 

2 hours ago, bumble bee said:

Nice try to derail discussion, but back on track and to Gaza ...

It's a perfectly valid and RELEVANT point.

People who are guilty of actively and unambiguously committing a crime have no moral authority in condemning that same crime supposedly being committed by someone else.

To use more common, and less diplomatic, parlance..... the Chinese ambassador to the UN can go f*ck himself!

IF you want to talk morality and use public figures to back up your point then at least pick someone we can both agree we are willing to take lessons in morality from.

Edited December 13, 2023 by anonguest

[anonguest]

7 hours ago, bumble bee said:

UN calls for immediate ceasefire in Gaza, Biden warns Israel is losing support

The United Nations on Tuesday demanded an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in the Gaza Strip as U.S. President Joe Biden warned Israel it was losing international support because of its "indiscriminate" bombing of civilians in its war against Hamas militants.

After dire warnings by U.N. officials about a deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the 193-member U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution calling for a ceasefire with 153 countries voting in favour and 23 abstaining. The U.S. and Israel, which argue a ceasefire only benefits Hamas, voted against the measure along with eight other countries.

The resolution is not binding but carries political weight, reflecting a global view on the war. The United States vetoed a similar call in the 15-member Security Council last week.

The Palestinian Authority welcomed the resolution and urged countries to pressure Israel to adopt the ceasefire.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hunger-rises-gaza-un-prepares-vote-ceasefire-resolution-2023-12-12/

And your point is?

As far as I'm concerned any U.N resolution that makes no mention at all of Hamas isn't morally worth the paper it's written on. End of.

And as for Biden. Seriously?! 

Why anyone with more than 3 functioning brain cells listens to the ramblings of the U.S Alzheimer Patient-in-Chief is beyond me. Anything he utters is prepared by his handlers. And right now they are terrified of losing support of the nutty "Trump is Hitler" ultrawoke Lefties and muslim voter base, with him already trailing well behind Trump in polling figures. He's a true U.S politician who will change his tune on a dime and sell his own mother if he thought it would win votes.

Edited December 13, 2023 by anonguest

[bumble bee]

1 hour ago, anonguest said:

 

It's a perfectly valid and RELEVANT point.

People who are guilty of actively and unambiguously committing a crime have no moral authority in condemning that same crime supposedly being committed by someone else.

To use more common, and less diplomatic, parlance..... the Chinese ambassador to the UN can go f*ck himself!

IF you want to talk morality and use public figures to back up your point then at least pick someone we can both agree we are willing to take lessons in morality from.

You are contradicting yourself, are you not?

[anonguest]

3 hours ago, bumble bee said:

You are contradicting yourself, are you not?

No.  You are not reading properly.

Read it again.

I draw your attention to the difference between 'unambiguously' and 'supposedly'.

Nobody other than China (and those politically compromised by/totally subservient to China) denies that China has been engaging in de facto genocide of the Turkic Muslims (Uyghurs) in China.

On the other hand some people are arguing (very poorly!) that Israel is committing genocide. My view, for the present, is that they are unambiguously NOT committing genocide - and those who make these claims are using the language hysterically and overemotionally.  More likely than not deliberately so.  Israel may very arguably be doing some things it should not be doing BUT genocide is not one of them - by any definition of the word.

In any case my original criticism of your post is still perfectly valid. You pointing to the official opinions of China on the matter of whether another country is committing genocide really is laughably stupid - a case of the pot calling the kettle black if ever there was one.

[DiggerUK]

Accusing politicians and states of hypocrisy is a pointless exercise. It's an integral part of their makeup.

The reason the fingers and tongues are wagging against the USA and Israel, is because the USA is not the overbearing world power any more. The USA has many challengers and wannabees who are not going to be the americans Aunt Sally any more. Israels free ticket is past it's use by date because overwhelming american dominance is past it's use by date.

China being rude to Uighurs and others being very rude and rough with the gays and lesbians in their countries is of no import when sorting the  baduns from the gooduns. I'm as convinced as I need to be that the balance of world power has been irreversibly smashed.

That still leaves the slaughter in Gaza as slaughter and Netanyahu finished..._

[anonguest]

15 hours ago, DiggerUK said:

Accusing politicians and states of hypocrisy is a pointless exercise. It's an integral part of their makeup.

The reason the fingers and tongues are wagging against the USA and Israel, is because the USA is not the overbearing world power any more. The USA has many challengers and wannabees who are not going to be the americans Aunt Sally any more. Israels free ticket is past it's use by date because overwhelming american dominance is past it's use by date.

China being rude to Uighurs and others being very rude and rough with the gays and lesbians in their countries is of no import when sorting the  baduns from the gooduns. I'm as convinced as I need to be that the balance of world power has been irreversibly smashed.

That still leaves the slaughter in Gaza as slaughter and Netanyahu finished..._

Slaughter of who though? Innocent 'civilians' carrying Kalashnikovs and RPGs? (Just go online and have a look at some of Hamas's own 'on the ground' propaganda videos!).

There's even one such jaw dropping video of scene with a guy who, at first glance, appears dressed as a paramedic in middle of a gunfight. He runs to someone shot (by the IDF most presumably). One assumes to tend to him. But instead he picks up the (still alive!) guy's kalashnikov, takes it and runs for cover to then use it himself! Hamas really are stupid. Openly publicising to the world that their fighters dress in jeans and t-shirts and Nike just like regular civilians.

Good riddance to them!

Edited December 14, 2023 by anonguest

[DiggerUK]

It could be that the news channels are faking the footage from Gaza. As none of the usual nasties around here are making such outlandish claims, I'll go with the Genocide claims.

With such obvious Genocide, available 24 hours a  day, it was puzzling some observers as to why no action to move action through the International Court of Justice (ICJ) or the International Criminal Court (ICC)

Now Craig Murray has reported from Geneva UN proceedings the mind blowing possibility as to why. He also points out that the Palestinian Authority, who have representation at the UN, have not made any such moves either. But he does point out that their funding might stop if they did.

 "Yesterday I attended a session called by Palestine at the United Nations in Geneva. Over 120 states attended. While the formal session consisted of statements of national position with few surprises, I was able to discuss with a large number of delegates in the corridors why the Genocide Convention has not been activated triggering a reference to the International Court of Justice.The answer is now clear to me. It is not that people are worried that a claim of genocide will not be successful at the International Court of Justice. It is that everybody is quite sure it will succeed. There is no respectable argument that this is not a genocide in the terms outlined above. The problem is that once the ICJ has determined that this is a genocide, it follows that not only are Netanyahu and hundreds of senior Israeli officials and military personally liable, but it is absolutely plain that “Genocide Joe” Biden, Sunak and members of their administrations are also criminally liable for complicity, having provided military support for the genocide"

Is anybody here beginning to question if it is only Netanyahu who needs to go..._

 

[anonguest]

4 hours ago, DiggerUK said:

It could be that the news channels are faking the footage from Gaza. As none of the usual nasties around here are making such outlandish claims, I'll go with the Genocide claims.

With such obvious Genocide, available 24 hours a  day, it was puzzling some observers as to why no action to move action through the International Court of Justice (ICJ) or the International Criminal Court (ICC)

Now Craig Murray has reported from Geneva UN proceedings the mind blowing possibility as to why. He also points out that the Palestinian Authority, who have representation at the UN, have not made any such moves either. But he does point out that their funding might stop if they did.

 "Yesterday I attended a session called by Palestine at the United Nations in Geneva. Over 120 states attended. While the formal session consisted of statements of national position with few surprises, I was able to discuss with a large number of delegates in the corridors why the Genocide Convention has not been activated triggering a reference to the International Court of Justice.The answer is now clear to me. It is not that people are worried that a claim of genocide will not be successful at the International Court of Justice. It is that everybody is quite sure it will succeed. There is no respectable argument that this is not a genocide in the terms outlined above. The problem is that once the ICJ has determined that this is a genocide, it follows that not only are Netanyahu and hundreds of senior Israeli officials and military personally liable, but it is absolutely plain that “Genocide Joe” Biden, Sunak and members of their administrations are also criminally liable for complicity, having provided military support for the genocide"

Is anybody here beginning to question if it is only Netanyahu who needs to go..._

 

Yawn

[DiggerUK]

The backstory in the aftermath of the civilian deaths following the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel, is not yet complete. The Grayzone has more information that questions the Israeli narrative as presented.

The claims of sickening brutality towards Israelis seem to be shy of verifiable evidence if this article from The Grayzone is accurate. Research by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz confirms much  of The Grayzone report..._

 

[anonguest]

23 hours ago, DiggerUK said:

The claims of sickening brutality towards Israelis seem to be shy of verifiable evidence...

 

Owen Jones walks among us here on HPC. Who'd have thought it!

Edited December 16, 2023 by anonguest

[donadoni]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:16 PM, anonguest said:

And who in their right mind wouldn't want to punish them?!

Can you clear this up? You have said that you condemn what the settlers do in the West Bank, yet you think the Gazans should be punished for what Hamas did?

You know that most of the Gazans are children and many of the people will be mentally ill due to the years of suffering.

I don't how you can condemn the Gazans for their views yet let the Israelis get away with having worse views. 

Do you also think us Brits deserve to be combed because we voted for Blair after he bombed Iraq?

[donadoni]

 

[donadoni]

How do you trust soldiers and leaders who keep making genocidal statements?

This is from 2014:

Quote

“They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists,” said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, “they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists,” Shaked added.
A day before Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khudair was kidnapped and burned alive allegedly by six Israeli Jewish youths, Shaked published on Facebook a call for genocide of the Palestinians.
The posts were considered as a call for genocide because it declared that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” she also called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”

https://geopolitics.co/2014/07/22/palestinian-mothers-should-be-killed/

[donadoni]

 

[anonguest]

4 hours ago, donadoni said:

Muhammad Abu Khudair was kidnapped and burned alive allegedly by six Israeli Jewish youths

ALLEGEDLY!

As opposed to UNAMBIGUOUSLY in the case of Hamas - who went to the effort to livestream their atrocities.

[anonguest]

22 hours ago, donadoni said:

How do you trust soldiers and leaders who keep making genocidal statements?

This is from 2014:

https://geopolitics.co/2014/07/22/palestinian-mothers-should-be-killed/

Repulsive comments for sure.

BUT, then again, have you seen the behaviour and sentiment of large swathes of Palestinian mothers with regards how they view their children - and how willing they are to sacrifice their children 'for the cause' ??!  So, whilst unacceptable in the cold light of day and which will never become official policy of the Israeli state, it is understandable that some of the more hot headed in Israel will feel they way they do having been at the receiving end of Palestinian Jew hate violence for decades.

Once again, you and others simply do not grasp the fundamental difference between a handful of extremists in Israeli politics venting their spleen and advocating policies that will never become acceptable by the Israeli majority and the Palestinians who actively pursue such policies.

Seriously. How old are you!?

People quoting these sorts of statements by fringe lunatics in Israeli politics and using them as the basis of some sort of argument to try and pain Israel in a bad light are displaying childish stupidity and naivete. Like an 8 year old complaining about getting punished by his parents for using bad language at the dinner table when his twin sibling didn't get punished as much as him and, he claims, having used far worse language.

These absurd politician statements have no more relevance than quoting opinions of, say for example, senior members of the BNP here in the UK and giving them any meaningful weight or significance and treating them as if they shape UK government policy - and using those statements to claim how bad a country the UK is.

You point to some vulgar loudmouth Israeli politician and hold that up as grounds for treating the whole country as a pariah state. But Hamas and large portions of the Palestinian politicians do worse than this and you have nothing to say about that!

Grow up!

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by anonguest

[anonguest]

22 hours ago, donadoni said:

Can you clear this up? You have said that you condemn what the settlers do in the West Bank, yet you think the Gazans should be punished for what Hamas did?

What is there to clear up?  Unless English is not your native language I made myself very clear.

In a civilised society the actions of both these groups warrant punishment.

BUT there is a difference between isolated thuggery carried out by hotheads acting out of their own volition AND mass murderers carrying out their actions as state policy.

In addition the magnitude of difference of the crimes by one group compared to the other means that the punishments to be meted out should also be different.

 

22 hours ago, donadoni said:

You know that most of the Gazans are children and many of the people will be mentally ill due to the years of suffering.

Do I? How do I know that? You don't KNOW that anymore than I do.

IF they are then maybe they're 'mentally ill' because of the particular stream of Islam they have been brainwashed with from the age they can speak!? Have you seen what Palestinian kindergarten and childrens TV programmes are like?!

And how do you know that the West Bank Jewish inhabitants will not be suffering mental stress/illness from having to live in fear of Palestinian terror attacks at any time?  Your stupid logic works both ways you know!

 

22 hours ago, donadoni said:

I don't how you can condemn the Gazans for their views yet let the Israelis get away with having worse views. 

Really? The majority of Israelis (which includes 2 million Arabs with the vote, etc.) have worse views than the Gazans?! 

Your moral compass is so screwed up I'm surprised you even know which way is up anymore.

Israel treated Yahya Sinwar (head of Hamas in Gaza) for a brain tumour while he was in prison (something I'm sure many regret now!). 

You think the Gazans are giving their Israeli hostages the medical treatment they need?  Just another one of those young women, taken alive and kicking, reported found murdered today!

 

22 hours ago, donadoni said:

Do you also think us Brits deserve to be combed because we voted for Blair after he bombed Iraq?

I assume you meant to say 'bombed'.

IF the Iraqis had the means to retaliate in such a manner then it would have been quite understandable IF they would have then done so in retaliation, i.e. bombed us.

And the fact that 'we' collectively voted for an arguable war criminal would indeed mean that any claim we would then make protesting our collective innocence in the matter would have little weight - in just the same way the majority of Gazans, who voted for Hamas and other Jew hating parties, cannot now hide behind similar such claims of innocence now that retribution is being meted out to them.

Edited December 17, 2023 by anonguest

[donadoni]

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

Likud Party charter

[anonguest]

7 hours ago, donadoni said:

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

Likud Party charter

And your point is... ?

Seriously!

I think I know what you are possibly insinuating here. But I prefer not to guess. My guess is that, once again, you are not correctly comprehending/interpreting what you are reading.

So, please, do explain in your own words the point of this post. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by anonguest

[donadoni]

5 hours ago, anonguest said:

And your point is... ?

Seriously!

I think I know what you are possibly insinuating here. But I prefer not to guess. My guess is that, once again, you are not correctly comprehending/interpreting what you are reading.

So, please, do explain in your own words the point of this post. 

It's in response to those that are offended when the pro-Palestinian people say the same thing.

Also to show you that the Israeli leaders do indeed want to take the Palestinian land.

[donadoni]