And even the second leg of HS2 now gone

[Staffsknot]

14 minutes ago, Si1 said:

You are an utter tw#t. A small percentage of a small number of ancient forests would be affected, and indeed most of them have no public access anyway. The damage to ecological function is tiny compared to the global environmental benefits of shifting so much road traffic to rail.

So yeah the nasty HS2 project was a cover for drug dealing so let's throw the smelly northerners under the bus. F#ck off.

Si calm down there's no need to be insulting and you will undo anything of interest you might have to say.

[Nick Cash]

13 minutes ago, Si1 said:

You are an utter tw#t. A small percentage of a small number of ancient forests would be affected, and indeed most of them have no public access anyway. The damage to ecological function is tiny compared to the global environmental benefits of shifting so much road traffic to rail.

So yeah the nasty HS2 project was a cover for drug dealing so let's throw the smelly northerners under the bus. F#ck off.

Merely the truth about the impacts on a small community. 
 

I supported HS2 but was appalled by the mismanagement at all sorts of levels and in all sorts of locations. The project made sense, the way it progressed did not.

 

[Si1]

16 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Si calm down there's no need to be insulting and you will undo anything of interest you might have to say.

Dude, after what's happened I'm past caring about that. But I will shut my gob.

[pig]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

No. It's poisoning the well. It's absolutely f#cking evil.

I can't find a link but it's all over Twitter. I guess it was verbally announced at the Tory conference.

Edit - Faisal Islam's tweet may be passably authoritative: 

 

 

They're also cancelling the planning protections protecting corridors for future phases. And developing Euston station with reduced HS2 platforms so it won't have the capacity to handle future northern HS2 traffic even if it does get built. And building apartments on the land that was earmarked for the extra platforms to really make sure.

Imho the agenda is this - the London metropolitan set got their relief mainline to vastly relieve rail congestion commuting into London in quite a wide area around Milton Keynes.

But they've shown their contempt for the north because they actively do not want the regions and north to have economic success, this would threaten the London hegemony and the power of the ruling classes. So its entirely intentional to subjugate the north. 

 

Nah too complicated, too conspiracy theory : surely the idea is simply for 'surprise' tax cuts before the election, and screw up the potential for Labour to rescue the plan after  eg make it as unaffordable as possible?

Or even before the election could be a red wall smashing gift - although probably best for Labour not to commit atm.

Personally I've come round to HS2 - ish: though I  still don't understand the costs. Back in the 90s when living in the North I gave short shrift to much of the anti-London anti-southerner delusions (plus I loved a good barney ).  But I did think public transport connections within the North were a ludicrous national disgrace. Some of the informed opinions, much quieter than the "whats the point of all this money for a few minutes quicker to London" views, have persistently pointed out its not actually about "HS", but about capacity and opening up the network for better local connections.

What if it were called something like LRC - Local Rail Connectivity? would it have had a different political fate ?

[Staffsknot]

3 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Dude, after what's happened I'm past caring about that. But I will shut my gob.

Nah don't shut up just dial it back a bit.

One of the simplest tricks of appearing to win an debate is to say lots of half truths or things that will exasperate the other party until they blow their stack. From the outside looking in the calm person appears more rational and more reasoned, consequently their 'facts' become accepted

 

[kzb]

12 hours ago, TheChangeIsCast said:

They also promised to extend Metrolink to Manchester airport! This line has existed for 9 years! Jesus wept. Unbelievable stuff really, they’re finished as a party in my opinion.

I have not seen the full speech TBH, but if he really said this it shows how much research went into it.  In other words none, it's just made up with some pals the night before.

[Si1]

5 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Nah don't shut up just dial it back a bit.

One of the simplest tricks of appearing to win an debate is to say lots of half truths or things that will exasperate the other party until they blow their stack. From the outside looking in the calm person appears more rational and more reasoned, consequently their 'facts' become accepted

 

Quite. But we've already lost. Sunak has done a job.

[Si1]

7 minutes ago, pig said:

.

Personally I've come round to HS2 - ish: though I  still don't understand the costs. Back in the 90s when living in the North I gave short shrift to much of the anti-London anti-southerner delusions (plus I loved a good barney ).  

Same here. Such 'delusions' persist and I buy into them because I believe there really is anti-regional bias on UK govt. The wealth divide between the regions and the capital is internationally significant and owed, in my opinion, to govt bias.

[Staffsknot]

1 minute ago, Si1 said:

Same here. Such 'delusions' persist and I buy into them because I believe there really is anti-regional bias on UK govt. The wealth divide between the regions and the capital is internationally significant and owed, in my opinion, to govt bias.

One of the great ironies is regions received more EU cash and then voted a certain way believing they'd get more from the Gov when out...

[pig]

1 minute ago, Si1 said:

Quite. But we've already lost. Sunak has done a job.

Just now, Si1 said:

Same here. Such 'delusions' persist and I buy into them because I believe there really is anti-regional bias on UK govt. The wealth divide between the regions and the capital is internationally significant and owed, in my opinion, to govt bias.

Sunak also has factional in-fighting, ultimately with his premiership in the cross-hairs.  

The apparent popularity of Liz Truss's speech among batsh1ts at the conference hit the news. That ideology will be baying for tax cuts and slashing public sphere - something to pump them up and reward their backers. Although the equation "The North vs Liz Truss = Screw the  North" does sound incredible on the face of it.

[Si1]

Just now, Staffsknot said:

One of the great ironies is regions received more EU cash and then voted a certain way believing they'd get more from the Gov when out...

They were just tired of their kids being denied entry level jobs that were going to incoming people from the EU with no protections put in place to give their own kids a beginning in life. Successive Labour and Tory govts just ignored them. There was little thought to just how this affected communities. Cameron, to some credit, tried to get some immigration concessions from the EU but failed. It was a fait accompli after that as noone was listening.

[Staffsknot]

What people miss with the new 'announcements' of investment are, nothing is costed, nothing has been properly planned and the 'quicker benefits' claim is misleading as no timetable has even been given for them.

Its pure pie in the sky deflction and downright dishonest.

Right or wrong HS2 was happening, work was taking place. This has been exchanged for a sheet of paper with some squiggles on it. 

If stuff physically in motion can be cancelled how cancelable do each of the squiggles seem? Also some cancelled prev by said PM as Chancellor

[Si1]

1 minute ago, pig said:

Sunak also has factional in-fighting, ultimately with his premiership in the cross-hairs.  

The apparent popularity of Liz Truss's speech among batsh1ts at the conference hit the news. That ideology will be baying for tax cuts and slashing public sphere - something to pump them up and reward their backers. Although the equation "The North vs Liz Truss = Screw the  North" does sound incredible on the face of it.

Truss' popularity is owing to being the only Tory with a vision. That's a sign of how comprehensively weak they are.

This is a huge exercise in reversion to the mean. Thatcher's vision is now proving a drag on the party. No talent can blossom under that shadow.

[Si1]

1 minute ago, Staffsknot said:

What people miss with the new 'announcements' of investment are, nothing is costed, nothing has been properly planned and the 'quicker benefits' claim is misleading as no timetable has even been given for them.

Its pure pie in the sky deflction and downright dishonest.

Right or wrong HS2 was happening, work was taking place. This has been exchanged for a sheet of paper with some squiggles on it. 

If stuff physically in motion can be cancelled how cancelable do each of the squiggles seem? Also some cancelled prev by said PM as Chancellor

Gonna add costs to future projects owing to uncertainty.

[Staffsknot]

4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

They were just tired of their kids being denied entry level jobs that were going to incoming people from the EU with no protections put in place to give their own kids a beginning in life. Successive Labour and Tory govts just ignored them. There was little thought to just how this affected communities. Cameron, to some credit, tried to get some immigration concessions from the EU but failed. It was a fait accompli after that as noone was listening.

Those same kids ain't getting the entry level jobs as they are gone as is the investment.

You had to believe the Gov not funding things would magically fund them

But that's for another thread

Edited October 5, 2023 by Staffsknot

[Si1]

1 minute ago, Staffsknot said:

Those same kids ain't getting the entry level jobs as they are gone as is the investment.

I don't know the figures but that's certainly possible.

1 minute ago, Staffsknot said:

You had to believe the Gov not funding things would magically fund them

But that's for another thread

 

[winkie]

1 hour ago, MancTom said:

They know they will lose the GE and I think this is some sort of advance revenge on the electorate. Basically destroy as much as possible before they are kicked out, whilst also profit for their mates as much as possible (see Private Eyes investigations about Ben Houchen et al)

Take the money and run.

[kzb]

1 minute ago, Si1 said:

Same here. Such 'delusions' persist and I buy into them because I believe there really is anti-regional bias on UK govt. The wealth divide between the regions and the capital is internationally significant and owed, in my opinion, to govt bias.

HS2 would primarily benefit London.  The government economic case makes that very clear:  35% London, 17% North-West, 11% Yorks and Humber.

Only 4% of journeys are shifts from car.  1% are shifts from air.

On the capacity issue, the economic growth was based on economics of agglomeration.  In other words the quick journey times would generate extra, additional, journeys.  If it simply replaced existing journeys it would generate little economic growth.

 

 

[winkie]

Meanwhile......main road into South west a303 been waiting years still waiting, rail from portishead to Bristol still waiting, still waiting......nothing ever gets done, millions paid out for no action.......no benefits, just waste and cuts.

[kzb]

26 minutes ago, winkie said:

Meanwhile......main road into South west a303 been waiting years still waiting, rail from portishead to Bristol still waiting, still waiting......nothing ever gets done, millions paid out for no action.......no benefits, just waste and cuts.

Yes it would've been far better to spread the HS largesse around a lot further.  Would've got much more bang per buck.

[winkie]

3 minutes ago, kzb said:

Yes it would've been far better to spread the HS largesse around a lot further.  Would've got much more bang per buck.

Yes, at least the people could see infrastructure was happening and could benefit from it, something to boast about, this lot have nothing to boast about.......they have neglected the majority.......cuts in NHS, cuts to schools, cuts in bus services, unreliable transport services, closing of police stations.......not building enough housing that people can afford to buy or rent.......huge inflation, high interest and not even got Brexit done......what a disaster zone.

[Si1]

38 minutes ago, kzb said:

HS2 would primarily benefit London.  The government economic case makes that very clear:  35% London, 17% North-West, 11% Yorks and Humber.

That's say 35% London, 28% the north. London has approx 30% greater population than the broad north, very approximate as pop estimates are tricky. But on a per capita basis that makes those figures you cite for the north parity with London, per capita.

38 minutes ago, kzb said:

Only 4% of journeys are shifts from car.  1% are shifts from air.

On the capacity issue, the economic growth was based on economics of agglomeration.  In other words the quick journey times would generate extra, additional, journeys.  If it simply replaced existing journeys it would generate little economic growth.

 

 

 

[wighty]

18 hours ago, Blobsy said:

Should have built a whole network in the 80s really.

“Here’s what you could have won…”

There's naff all public transport anywhere else in France apart from above. Most motorways are tolls.

[Si1]

13 minutes ago, wighty said:

There's naff all public transport anywhere else in France apart from above.

They do concentrate on their TGVs....

Interestingly French cities tend to have outstanding municipal run tram systems covering the far and wide reaches of their cities' suburbs. This is because SNCF suburban rail is sh#t because they only care about TGV. So I'm told . So local councils have to compensate with outstanding light rail instead

13 minutes ago, wighty said:

Most motorways are tolls.

There's nothing wrong with that. Proper capitalism. Perfectly healthy 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Si1

[Timm]

2 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

It is also scorched earth as it means high cost if any future gov wanted to try and implement.

But yes watch friends magically become middlemen for developers.

Some farmers already trying to buy back farms have been told got to go on 'open market'...

I'm increasingly convinced of this.

Burning the fields! Salting the earth!