Will Russia invade Ukraine and what happens if it escalates with NATO/US getting involved

[Grayphil]

5 hours ago, bumble bee said:

Daily Mail comment, Griffin1991:

 

They (Ukraine) need good aged fighting men, Russia has wiped out a whole generation of men, the average age of a Ukraine soldier now is 43 years old. The EU knew it didn't matter how much equipment they gave Ukraine they was never ever going to beat Russia, this was a poxy war to test Russias capabilities. And the poor Ukrainian men have paid the price. Russia hasn't even gone full throttle and they accomplished their goals. They need to come to a peace deal, Russia left the door open for a peace deal within the first 18 months of the war, they have now shut that door. Now the US and UK are telling Zelenskyy to ask them to reopen that door and find peace. The war is lost. Zelenskyy and his friends have become very rich.

This is a comment by some random person, it's complete tripe, it is the Russian line I do understand,  but that'd just it..

Meanwhile Ukraine have been busy destroying more of Russias Navy..seems a landing ship, potentially carrying lots of Shahed drones has just been obliterated in Crimea.

Crimea is more of a target than Marinka, and it looks to be quite a realistic proposition.

 

BTW, why didn't air defence stop the missiles? There is an air defence platform right next to to Dock.

So Russia looks to be out of air defence in Crimea

[Grayphil]

3 hours ago, satsuma said:

Didn’t realise Russia were still keeping ships in the Black Sea and certainly not in Crimea, goes to show they should pull them back to a safe place or they get sunk.

The more interesting question is what has happened to the air defence, apparently there is a SAM battery just nearby, wouldn't it be great if that massive explosion from the destroyed ship was replacement missiles...

[Grayphil]

1 hour ago, MerchantNavy said:

That doesn't answer the original question. What will we get in return for the support provided? Will Ukraine pay back double? Russia has clearly demonstrated it has a poor military that can't threaten NATO so future threat isn't really a reason.

It doesn't work like that, firstly we asked for them to abandon their nuclear weapons in return for our protection.

Secondly, Russia are already threatening to take other places, state media frequently says its going to move on the Baltics and Poland after successfully taking all of Ukraine.

Thirdly, it's not great to allow genocide and war crimes especially after we promised to protect Ukriane.

If we defend Ukraine and allow them into Europe, the whole EU becomes more prosperous and secure

If the west doesn't rally around now to support Ukraine, the Chinese would also be emboldened to take on Taiwan.

They are all returns on investment 

[pig]

16 minutes ago, MerchantNavy said:

That isn't the reason for aid is it? Otherwise aid would would be given to Palestine to stop israel genociding then.

LMAO Putinists are now trying to play some kind of delirious 'moral equivalence' game with Palestine ?  Jesus wept what Alice in wonderland world are you lost in !

[pig]

35 minutes ago, bumble bee said:

Now, you are asking a very good questions about (neo) Nazi in Ukraine and who is supporting them.

Basically, Russians are supporting the Nazis in Ukraine lunacy. Also satanism and genocide and biological weapons and on and on...

Russia must have done something incredibly screwed up if it needs that mountain of horsesh1t to try to cover itself  

Part of your Big Secret Identity is supporting Russian Nazi disinformation, but China is also spending billions spreading disinformation, and Iran has got in the act. So you (and Rollover of course) are not necessarily Russian.

 

[MerchantNavy]

Just now, Grayphil said:

It doesn't work like that, firstly we asked for them to abandon their nuclear weapons in return for our protection.

Secondly, Russia are already threatening to take other places, state media frequently says its going to move on the Baltics and Poland after successfully taking all of Ukraine.

Thirdly, it's not great to allow genocide and war crimes especially after we promised to protect Ukriane.

If we defend Ukraine and allow them into Europe, the whole EU becomes more prosperous and secure

If the west doesn't rally around now to support Ukraine, the Chinese would also be emboldened to take on Taiwan.

They are all returns on investment 

Reason 1. Fair enough, but does that protection not go to direct involvement?

 

Reason 2. Threatening and that's it. They do not stand a chance against NATO so would not attempt it.

 

Reason 3. What evidence is there of genocide. Was what Ukraine doing in Donbass not genocide?

 

4. How does allowing Ukraine into the Europe make it more prosperous? I'd go far as saying it would the opposite, similar to the addition of South Eastern Europe.

 

6. Seems a good reason until you find out both China and Taiwan agree to one nation. It's just the leadership they disagree on.

[MerchantNavy]

55 minutes ago, pig said:

LMAO Putinists are now trying to play some kind of delirious 'moral equivalence' game with Palestine ?  Jesus wept what Alice in wonderland world are you lost in !

Apples for apples. Why not?

[yelims]

3 hours ago, MerchantNavy said:

That doesn't answer the original question. What will we get in return for the support provided? Will Ukraine pay back double? Russia has clearly demonstrated it has a poor military that can't threaten NATO so future threat isn't really a reason.

You get to keep raping and murdering Russian Nazis and barbarians away from your kids without sacrificing NATO soldiers 

Its not a difficult concept 

for a single digit percent of nato yearly expenditure we got to destroy half the Russian nazi military without losing a soldier

Edited December 26, 2023 by yelims

[MerchantNavy]

7 minutes ago, yelims said:

You get to keep Nazis and barbarians away from your kids without sacrificing NATO soldiers 

Its not a difficult concept 

for a single digit percent of nato yearly expenditure we got to destroy half the Russian nazi military without losing a soldier

Got you. Ukrainians are expendables so we don't lose NATO troops.

 

I agree in principal as I consider our British troops lives far more valuable than the troops of other nations.

[yelims]

6 minutes ago, MerchantNavy said:

Got you. Ukrainians are expendables so we don't lose NATO troops.

 

I agree in principal as I consider our British troops lives far more valuable than the troops of other nations.

They are not expendable hence why more and continued aid and training is needed 

You on other hand do consider these defenders of your freedom from criminal Russian rapists / murderering barbarians expendable because you continue to question why they need help and continue to spread russiqn propaganda talking points 

[yelims]

Russian double headed eagle losing one head 

 

 

[MerchantNavy]

5 minutes ago, yelims said:

They are not expendable hence why more and continued aid and training is needed 

You on other hand do consider these defenders of your freedom from criminal Russian rapists / murderering barbarians expendable because you continue to question why they need help and continue to spread russiqn propaganda talking points 

They must be expendable if they are begging for aid and not getting it.

 

They aren't defending my freedom as we aren't under threat. Russia would first have to get past Ukraine (which it can't do), then Poland (which is a fantasy), Germany, France and finally the English Channel before having an opportunity. 

[Grayphil]

1 hour ago, MerchantNavy said:

Reason 1. Fair enough, but does that protection not go to direct involvement?

 

Reason 2. Threatening and that's it. They do not stand a chance against NATO so would not attempt it.

 

Reason 3. What evidence is there of genocide. Was what Ukraine doing in Donbass not genocide?

 

4. How does allowing Ukraine into the Europe make it more prosperous? I'd go far as saying it would the opposite, similar to the addition of South Eastern Europe.

 

6. Seems a good reason until you find out both China and Taiwan agree to one nation. It's just the leadership they disagree on.

I don't understand why they couldn't do more, I personally think they should, but I guess it's a fine line without actually involving NATO directly.

Their is plenty of evidence and it's waiting at the ICC.. and Ukraine wasn't commiti genocide in Donbass, it was literally fighting against Russian backed mercenaries, and even the Wagner group. Unlike Putin who is still attacking civilian targets, because his army isn't competent enough to strike legitimate military targets 

As for strengthening Europe, it will take time,  but I also remember people saying the the inclusion of the Baltic states into Europe would weaken Europe, 20 years later they are powering along.

I think that Taiwan doesn't want China invading it.. very similar vibe, to a larger neighbour attacking.

[Grayphil]

32 minutes ago, MerchantNavy said:

They must be expendable if they are begging for aid and not getting it.

 

They aren't defending my freedom as we aren't under threat. Russia would first have to get past Ukraine (which it can't do), then Poland (which is a fantasy), Germany, France and finally the English Channel before having an opportunity. 

That's a bit of a weak argument, you would want Russia to take all of europe with countless millions dead, until you thought about being arsed about it.

Also, as you title is merchant Navy, how do you think the MN benefits with all of Europe at war

The war can be stopped, and all it takes is for concrete support from western nations... 

Russia could have already been pushed back but Ukraine didn't receive the equipment it needed

 

[pig]

1 hour ago, MerchantNavy said:

Apples for apples. Why not?

Yeah of course apples are  planets. They're both round after all ?

[yelims]

1 hour ago, MerchantNavy said:

They must be expendable if they are begging for aid and not getting it.

 

They aren't defending my freedom as we aren't under threat. Russia would first have to get past Ukraine (which it can't do), then Poland (which is a fantasy), Germany, France and finally the English Channel before having an opportunity. 

Ffs they asked for direct nato involvement and no fly zone and we said no

so they said fine give us the tools to kill nazis

 and here you are moaning about these nazi swatting tools being given to help Ukrainians 

So once again why do you support Russian Nazis?

Edited December 26, 2023 by yelims

[bumble bee]

46 minutes ago, yelims said:

Ffs they asked for direct nato involvement and no fly zone and we said no

so they said fine give us the tools to kill nazis

 and here you are moaning about these nazi swatting tools being given to help Ukrainians 

So once again why do you support Russian Nazis?

What are you thinking about the US, the EU, the UK and Western allies, instead of sending Ukraine money, weapons, ammunition and 500 000 trained fighting man they desperately needing right now and for the next year counteroffensive, wishing Ukraine Merry Christmas and happy new year 2024?

[yelims]

49 minutes ago, bumble bee said:

What are you thinking about the US, the EU, the UK and Western allies, instead of sending Ukraine money, weapons, ammunition and 500 000 trained fighting man they desperately needing right now and for the next year counteroffensive, wishing Ukraine Merry Christmas and happy new year 2024?

I think it’s a travesty that likes of Orban and Republicans are in bed with Putin

and hence slowing down help

which is a reminder that we in west how our own homegrown scumbags 

[bumble bee]

1 hour ago, yelims said:

I think it’s a travesty that likes of Orban and Republicans are in bed with Putin

and hence slowing down help

which is a reminder that we in west how our own homegrown scumbags 

It's not only Orban and Republicans but others as well, btw Orban has been used as a scapegoat.

Russia military-linked production increased at double-digit rates. But regardless of some successes, for how long can Ukraine hold off?

 

Kyiv's counter-offensive ground to a halt at the start of winter and there are fears that the Russians could simply outgun Ukraine.

Mr Shoigu gave details on Tuesday of the damage to the ship to President Vladimir Putin, before declaring that Russian forces had brought Ukraine's counter-offensive to a halt and were now pushing forward on all fronts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67820916

 

[yelims]

27 minutes ago, bumble bee said:

It's not only Orban and Republicans but others as well, btw Orban has been used as a scapegoat.

Russia military-linked production increased at double-digit rates. But regardless of some successes, for how long can Ukraine hold off?

 

Kyiv's counter-offensive ground to a halt at the start of winter and there are fears that the Russians could simply outgun Ukraine.

Mr Shoigu gave details on Tuesday of the damage to the ship to President Vladimir Putin, before declaring that Russian forces had brought Ukraine's counter-offensive to a halt and were now pushing forward on all fronts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67820916

 

Well some sort of merry xmas “wishes” are knocking down Russian airplanes and ships

yes it’s worrying that Russia (claims) to have increased production, but the solution to that is more sanctions and more aid to Ukraine 

yet we still have people like merchantnavy here asking why help Ukraine at all which beggars the mind. Why does one even need to explain why killing Nazis is the right thing to do?

Edited December 26, 2023 by yelims

[Peter Hun]

On 25/12/2023 at 19:26, MerchantNavy said:

Great investment for who?

What have we gained here in the United Kingdom?

Annihilation of what is clearly revealed as a massive threat to the UK.

When the Russians boast that they want to nuke the UKm they do mean it.

[Peter Hun]

22 hours ago, MerchantNavy said:

I don't support Russia. Neutral. I want to know how will we be recovering costs. Can't expect freebies in life.

 

P.S If military aid is being provided to Ukraine, should that not also be extended to Palestine defending against Israeli Nazis?

It's not your money, you tax avoiding git.

[Peter Hun]

11 hours ago, satsuma said:

Didn’t realise Russia were still keeping ships in the Black Sea and certainly not in Crimea, goes to show they should pull them back to a safe place or they get sunk.

Look where it is on the map... far away from unoccupied land. Speculated that the full range Storm Shadow has been supplied for the job ( all export missiles are range limited by treaty - rather pointlessly now)

[yelims]

6 hours ago, MerchantNavy said:

Apples for apples. Why not?

So now you moved on from cheering for Russian Nazis to calling for genocide of Jews 

Congrats for squaring that swastika 

[MerchantNavy]

7 hours ago, Grayphil said:

I don't understand why they couldn't do more, I personally think they should, but I guess it's a fine line without actually involving NATO directly.

Their is plenty of evidence and it's waiting at the ICC.. and Ukraine wasn't commiti genocide in Donbass, it was literally fighting against Russian backed mercenaries, and even the Wagner group. Unlike Putin who is still attacking civilian targets, because his army isn't competent enough to strike legitimate military targets 

As for strengthening Europe, it will take time,  but I also remember people saying the the inclusion of the Baltic states into Europe would weaken Europe, 20 years later they are powering along.

I think that Taiwan doesn't want China invading it.. very similar vibe, to a larger neighbour attacking.

I don't know either. Seems to be let both armed forces beat each other to death. Two armies fighting is like one giant army committing suicide.

That's great it has gone to the ICC but it seems to be very political. We didn't see Blair being investigated. At the same time Ukrainian crimes have been brushed under the carpet.

I don't recall the questioning of Baltic's but we have all witnessed first hand what has happened since South East Europe joined. So back to the original question, in what way will it strengthen Europe? 

7 hours ago, Grayphil said:

That's a bit of a weak argument, you would want Russia to take all of europe with countless millions dead, until you thought about being arsed about it.

Also, as you title is merchant Navy, how do you think the MN benefits with all of Europe at war

The war can be stopped, and all it takes is for concrete support from western nations... 

Russia could have already been pushed back but Ukraine didn't receive the equipment it needed

 

Disagree completely. The only way it would go into millions is if it went Nuclear which Russia could do now. Excluding nuclear, Russia knows it does not stand a chance.

It doesn't. Maybe the war would have been over if it was ignored?

That's unlikely. Taking all territory back would include Crimes. That would push Russia into desperate measures (nuclear).

7 hours ago, pig said:

Yeah of course apples are  planets. They're both round after all ?

Yes you do need to sleep. Answer the question. You are so passionate about providing aid to Ukraine to defend itself but don't want to extend this assistance to Palestine who has been getting stomped over for decades.

7 hours ago, yelims said:

Ffs they asked for direct nato involvement and no fly zone and we said no

so they said fine give us the tools to kill nazis

 and here you are moaning about these nazi swatting tools being given to help Ukrainians 

So once again why do you support Russian Nazis?

I have asked what returns will we see. If we provided £10B in aid and Ukraine 'wins' the war, can we expect to see that money back + profit?

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

Annihilation of what is clearly revealed as a massive threat to the UK.

When the Russians boast that they want to nuke the UKm they do mean it.

Yeah, sure. Can't take a complete province from Ukraine and we're supposed to be scared of this threat.

2 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

It's not your money, you tax avoiding git.

When I look at my weekly payslip, I can clearly see tax deductions. Will you have the courage to admit you have made a false claim and retract your comment?

2 hours ago, yelims said:

So now you moved on from cheering for Russian Nazis to calling for genocide of Jews 

Congrats for squaring that swastika 

What? You are calling for extinction of the human race?

See, two can play at 'Make up a false statement'.