Thousands of workers hit with massive tax avoidance bills

[PaulParanoia]

8 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

No ones whining - at least not me. No fine, just effectively got to pay the money we owe. Thanks for your opinion there are plenty more reasons but undoubtedly your not interested in them. 

Glad to hear you don't have an issue with paying the back tax, there's many people out there who do.  Did you ever have it in writing from HMRC that the scheme you set up for yourself and your employees was approved?  If so, that would be very different from most one-man-band contractors who entered into these schemes with little or no diligence.  If you have documented proof that HMRC approved your scheme it should be possible to challenge their retrospective demands.

[MancTom]

On 02/11/2019 at 14:29, GregBowman said:

The EBT scheme was not an IR35 scheme - you are a small trader we employed 50 people. The Employee Benefit Trust was a legitimate scheme that was registered with HMRC from the outset. Day 1. It was a trust of which there  are many different types  to facilitate tax planning. An EBT scheme enabled you to loan money to yourself and employees (which we did) and declare the loan on your P11D and pay tax on on the BIK as if it was a normal loan - as I say totally transparent and above aboard

The HMRC changed their mind - retrospectively saying it should all be treated as income. I have never been a one man band contractor and to be honest as a  company owner am pretty anti micro businesses avoiding employment taxes, thus under cutting genuine growth companies who create jobs like mine 

So my point is if you agree that HMRC can retrospectively choose how income is treated then where does it stop ? 

Get it ?

"The HMRC changed their mind - retrospectively saying it should all be treated as income"

I thought what they said was that given no money was paid back, it clearly wasn't a loan. They even said if people disagreed they were free to repay their "loans" in full to avoid being taxed.

[markyh]

26 minutes ago, MancTom said:

"The HMRC changed their mind - retrospectively saying it should all be treated as income"

I thought what they said was that given no money was paid back, it clearly wasn't a loan. They even said if people disagreed they were free to repay their "loans" in full to avoid being taxed.

Lol. Bummer. Great move by HMRC. That is a completely valid choice imho. 

[dragging boot straps]

1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

No ones whining - at least not me. No fine, just effectively got to pay the money we owe. Thanks for your opinion there are plenty more reasons but undoubtedly your not interested in them. 

Greg it is 'you're'.

In a way I do feel sorry for you as your financial illiteracy and greedy temperament have been exploited by those with a higher iq. 

They knew the schemes were dodgy when they sold you the dream. They also knew that you wouldn't do your due diligence.

Best of luck mate. Hope the lump sum wasn't too painful. 

[Pop321]

5 hours ago, PaulParanoia said:

Glad to hear you don't have an issue with paying the back tax, there's many people out there who do.  Did you ever have it in writing from HMRC that the scheme you set up for yourself and your employees was approved?  If so, that would be very different from most one-man-band contractors who entered into these schemes with little or no diligence.  If you have documented proof that HMRC approved your scheme it should be possible to challenge their retrospective demands.

An aside, my only direct dealing with HMRC was unpleasant and threatening. 

I bought a house to move to, renovated it, sold it due to a change in circumstance, wrote to the revenue who agreed IN WRITING that it was okay and nothing to worry about. This was my first ever development  

2 years later I did the same thing but with the intent of buying to sell. 

HMRC decided to retrospectively apply tax on the first house....I don’t liken that to the ‘change of mind for contractors debate’ because I understand that I moved the goalposts. 

There was no debate, I had a letter saying they were happy no tax was to be paid, I had absolute intent of moving in (I wouldn’t dare lie to HMRC)....but they made my life very uncomfortable for a few weeks. 3 years bank statements etc....queried a cheque I had paid in (about £50) and I had to find out where the cheque was from etc (it was a birthday present from my mother in law). So whilst I had done nothing wrong...the revenue was unrelenting, I rang them, offered them a relatively huge amount and they took it. 

I guess my point is HMRC felt ‘all powerful’ at that time and getting something in writing saved me worrying about going to jail....but I knew that were going to get money from me. 

Its not the same....just a story re HMRC and how they work. 

[dragging boot straps]

Tick tock for the tax dodgers here. HMRC have said that the original charge stands. 31st January 2020 to pay those bills. 

Great news and I can't see any government overturning it.  

[mrtickle]

6 hours ago, dragging boot straps said:

Tick tock for the tax dodgers here. HMRC have said that the original charge stands. 31st January 2020 to pay those bills. 

Great news and I can't see any government overturning it.  

I agree. Hopefully some nice reminder letters being sent out just before Xmas too.

 

[GregBowman]

On 04/11/2019 at 18:21, Pop321 said:

An aside, my only direct dealing with HMRC was unpleasant and threatening. 

I bought a house to move to, renovated it, sold it due to a change in circumstance, wrote to the revenue who agreed IN WRITING that it was okay and nothing to worry about. This was my first ever development  

2 years later I did the same thing but with the intent of buying to sell. 

HMRC decided to retrospectively apply tax on the first house....I don’t liken that to the ‘change of mind for contractors debate’ because I understand that I moved the goalposts. 

There was no debate, I had a letter saying they were happy no tax was to be paid, I had absolute intent of moving in (I wouldn’t dare lie to HMRC)....but they made my life very uncomfortable for a few weeks. 3 years bank statements etc....queried a cheque I had paid in (about £50) and I had to find out where the cheque was from etc (it was a birthday present from my mother in law). So whilst I had done nothing wrong...the revenue was unrelenting, I rang them, offered them a relatively huge amount and they took it. 

I guess my point is HMRC felt ‘all powerful’ at that time and getting something in writing saved me worrying about going to jail....but I knew that were going to get money from me. 

Its not the same....just a story re HMRC and how they work. 

I have experience of both - had a small ebt scheme (employee benefit trust where a small proportion of earnings paid as a loan in a two year period twenty years ago before anyone goes all pious ) declared every year on tax return and paid some tax now fallen foul of the roll up as they call it - however HMRC agreed no fine and 4 years to pay back - fair 

Unfair!! 25 years Ago in the housing crash remember those !! Had our first flat and couldn’t sell so rented out - got in a muddle and then settled and like you had a letter. Had a PAYE inspection at the business and didn’t make the dragon a cup of tea ( genuine oversight !!) 

1 week later - new letter comes through undoing previous agreement and more tax to pay 

That’s why you can never trust the f*****

[dragging boot straps]

32 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

I have experience of both - had a small ebt scheme (employee benefit trust where a small proportion of earnings paid as a loan in a two year period twenty years ago before anyone goes all pious ) declared every year on tax return and paid some tax now fallen foul of the roll up as they call it - however HMRC agreed no fine and 4 years to pay back - fair 

Unfair!! 25 years Ago in the housing crash remember those !! Had our first flat and couldn’t sell so rented out - got in a muddle and then settled and like you had a letter. Had a PAYE inspection at the business and didn’t make the dragon a cup of tea ( genuine oversight !!) 

1 week later - new letter comes through undoing previous agreement and more tax to pay 

That’s why you can never trust the f*****

HMRC set the rules to catch people like yourself. I'm comfortable with them keeping on top of your affairs and adjusting where necessary.

It's important to pay for civilian services. 

[Pop321]

1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

I have experience of both - had a small ebt scheme (employee benefit trust where a small proportion of earnings paid as a loan in a two year period twenty years ago before anyone goes all pious ) declared every year on tax return and paid some tax now fallen foul of the roll up as they call it - however HMRC agreed no fine and 4 years to pay back - fair 

Unfair!! 25 years Ago in the housing crash remember those !! Had our first flat and couldn’t sell so rented out - got in a muddle and then settled and like you had a letter. Had a PAYE inspection at the business and didn’t make the dragon a cup of tea ( genuine oversight !!) 

1 week later - new letter comes through undoing previous agreement and more tax to pay 

That’s why you can never trust the f*****

I don’t think many realise the inspectors are not robots just applying rules but rather they can be agenda driven and very human. 

The rules themselves are often in principal very fair and straightforward but applying them to different ‘what if’ scenarios makes it tricky  

My inspector wanted a feather in their cap and said as much. I knew not to make it personal...it was a battle to be lost so I just turned over and put it down to experience.

My advice to anyone is to keep things simple. I wouldn’t set up a business or try anything entrepreneurial and stick with simple transactions and tax returns.  

Leave the complicated stuff to the gangsters who run and own the country. They know the system ? 

[GregBowman]

1 hour ago, Pop321 said:

I don’t think many realise the inspectors are not robots just applying rules but rather they can be agenda driven and very human. 

The rules themselves are often in principal very fair and straightforward but applying them to different ‘what if’ scenarios makes it tricky  

My inspector wanted a feather in their cap and said as much. I knew not to make it personal...it was a battle to be lost so I just turned over and put it down to experience.

My advice to anyone is to keep things simple. I wouldn’t set up a business or try anything entrepreneurial and stick with simple transactions and tax returns.  

Leave the complicated stuff to the gangsters who run and own the country. They know the system ? 

It was a dabble and totally agree - my takeaway and kids car insurance are nice perks virtually untraceable 

We did it out of greed but a little necessity it was the tech recession 200-2003 but lesson learnt never touched anything like it again 

Still resent payroll inspections always have to give them a bone otherwise they get funny it’s like a third world country with an on the spot fine

But as you say pragmatism rules £2-£3k sees them off until the next time   

[hurlerontheditch]

28 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

It was a dabble and totally agree - my takeaway and kids car insurance are nice perks virtually untraceable 

We did it out of greed but a little necessity it was the tech recession 200-2003 but lesson learnt never touched anything like it again 

Still resent payroll inspections always have to give them a bone otherwise they get funny it’s like a third world country with an on the spot fine

But as you say pragmatism rules £2-£3k sees them off until the next time   

total joke

[GregBowman]

23 minutes ago, hurlerontheditch said:

total joke

It is !! Paid all our taxes Vat, employer’s NI, Corp tax, never cash in hand and so forth which is why I disagree with @dragging boot straps and your pious comment - you obviously haven’t dealt with the HMRC on a company level 

and by the way HMRC do not make tax laws they interpret  them (Parliament makes tax laws) - often illegally and badly 

Edited December 12, 2019 by GregBowman

[GregBowman]

3 hours ago, dragging boot straps said:

HMRC set the rules to catch people like yourself. I'm comfortable with them keeping on top of your affairs and adjusting where necessary.

It's important to pay for civilian services. 

How much tax do you pay a year across VAT,Employers NI, personal tax, Corp tax ?

I pay more than my fair share from a business I started in my boys bedroom with £500 

Do me a favour get off your pious high horse 

Edited December 12, 2019 by GregBowman

[hurlerontheditch]

16 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

It is !! Paid all our taxes Vat, employer’s NI, Corp tax, never cash in hand and so forth which is why I disagree with @dragging boot straps and your pious comment - you obviously haven’t dealt with the HMRC on a company level 

and by the way HMRC do not make tax laws they interpret  them (Parliament makes tax laws) - often illegally and badly 

did you do an Alan Partridge on it!

 

[chronyx]

This forum: the government is responsible for a colossal house price bubble

 

Also this forum:  give the government as much money as they deem fit.

[longgone]

1 hour ago, GregBowman said:

How much tax do you pay a year across VAT,Employers NI, personal tax, Corp tax ?

I pay more than my fair share from a business I started in my boys bedroom with £500 

Do me a favour get off your pious high horse 

We had the tax man search the house when I was a lad.  Even looked round the garden for loot.

Pissem off too much and they just shove a crazy estimate to pay.

[GregBowman]

4 hours ago, longgone said:

We had the tax man search the house when I was a lad.  Even looked round the garden for loot.

Pissem off too much and they just shove a crazy estimate to pay.

Exactly but apparently that’s alright with some - they merged with customs and excise so they could have their powers a little known fact  

[GregBowman]

4 hours ago, chronyx said:

This forum: the government is responsible for a colossal house price bubble

 

Also this forum:  give the government as much money as they deem fit.

Slight cognitive dissonance by some ??

[chronyx]

1 minute ago, GregBowman said:

Slight cognitive dissonance by some ??

This place is mostly nothing but retards and shills now 

[dragging boot straps]

17 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Slight cognitive dissonance by some ??

It's important to pay for public services? The tax system is a fair and equitable system to do that. 

As a former business owner of 250 employees then I always towed the line. Never had any problems settling my affairs and often went for a drink or two with the inspectors that came. 

Only those who try to cheat the system hate the system. You're a cheat so you hate it. 

[chronyx]

1 minute ago, dragging boot straps said:

It's important to pay for public services? The tax system is a fair and equitable system to do that. 

As a former business owner of 250 employees then I always towed the line. Never had any problems settling my affairs and often went for a drink or two with the inspectors that came. 

Only those who try to cheat the system hate the system. You're a cheat so you hate it. 

Why are you a former business owner?

Why do you not hate a system that makes the primary need for anyone (Barring food and water), un-affordable without either ludicrous schemes, ludicrous mortgages, ludicrous interest rates, or some combination thereof? 

[longgone]

23 minutes ago, GregBowman said:

Exactly but apparently that’s alright with some - they merged with customs and excise so they could have their powers a little known fact  

Indeed when they merged they have the power to take everything from you and leave you desolate should they feel like it.

I'm surprised dodgy builders aren't investigated more with being a high tax business.

[GregBowman]

13 hours ago, dragging boot straps said:

It's important to pay for public services? The tax system is a fair and equitable system to do that. 

As a former business owner of 250 employees then I always towed the line. Never had any problems settling my affairs and often went for a drink or two with the inspectors that came. 

Only those who try to cheat the system hate the system. You're a cheat so you hate it. 

Wow proper business congratulations ( truly not sarcastic)

However tax evasion is illegal - tax avoidance isn’t - I just avoided paying more than my fair share - does that make me a cheat ? - the EBT scheme was registered with HMRC it wasn’t a secret off shore trust 

we will have to agree to differ you have implicit faith the state will do the right thing and be fair despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary 

I believe with the exception of a welfare net and national and local security the best state is the smallest one 

[Pop321]

19 hours ago, hurlerontheditch said:

did you do an Alan Partridge on it!

 

Deja vu. I love this. This is how I felt I acted when I spoke to them...like a d1ck. 

My experience was not tax avoidance rather a change of heart by HMRC even with their own contradictory decision in writing received earlier. I am a liberal leftie (a dying breed according to the election result) and believe we should all be paying more taxes...well, except me if course??

I am just relaying any direct encounter is with a ‘human’ who was certainly happy to flex their muscles, tell me what an enquiry is, relay their powers and explain if you don’t pay them something that they can check everything for many years past...and even with nothing to hide it will cost you money and more time than you can imagine. 

It felt a little like being pulled over by the police in Texas with a brake light not working, whilst on the way the the garage to get it fixed. Forget my liberal leftie views and human rights...you smile, you apologise, you pay and you drive on. It genuinely makes you forget any ‘rights’ you may have....and I am not saying it’s a bad thing. But until you have been their don’t under estimate how it feels.

It not like a Barista telling you their is no foam on the coffee (when their is) it is a feeling of powerlessness. Has to be experienced to be believed.