Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: Don't worry you can exorcise your guilt by giving it away and living in a barrel like diogenes. If I felt guilty I might be more inclined to believe that charity would be a suitable alternative to tax. If I donated all my wealth it would have a very small impact. If taxes were changed only a small amount, the change could be transformative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 minute ago, knock out johnny said: no because you are punishing people for the sins of their fathers - the logical conclusion to this is western europe and and north america gives their entire wealth back to africa/native americans etc for slavery/colonialism I'd like to see a consumption tax on everything except food, shelter and heating - with the tax tiered according to decandence (for want of a better word of the product) you buy a bentley/rolex 150%, you buy a smart car/casio 5% - and LVT (goes without saying) In a hypothetical case where it was demonstrable that my father stole £9m of his £10m fortune, it is not punishing me to allow me to inherit £1m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CunningPlan Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Death duty is particularly onerous because it is taken from money that has already been taxed. Didn't the Cameron lot promise to scrap death duty? In most cases not. Most people's largest asset is their house. The gains are untaxed. I would rather defer a large part of my tax until my death rather than pay it during my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, Kosmin said: If taxes were changed only a small amount, the change could be transformative. If the taxes were collected. The left always assume that govts can do anything and it won't impact on individual freedoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calcutta Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Vice taxes - legalise drugs, prostitution, and tax the cr4p out of them. Force large companies to pay their fair share. Have their accounts subject to an independent audit and charge them a non-negotiable bill. Do away with this nonsense of buying their coffee at inflated prices from Switzerland or having the HQ in a condo in Panama City. Have universal credit paid as a top-up card with no value in cash, have everything essential available to buy with that card but excluding drugs, fags, alcohol, big ticket items. Crash the damn housing market so HB isn't paying billions towards the early retirement of a few thousand parasites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knock out johnny Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Kosmin said: In a hypothetical case where it was demonstrable that my father stole £9m of his £10m fortune, it is not punishing me to allow me to inherit £1m. Yes it is - what have you done wrong? If your father has stolen it, then he can stand trial, be found guilty and it can be confiscated under POCA or an equivalent - or don't we do trials and justice anymore in the search for a greater tax take? if your father was guilty all £10m is taken and you get nothing - sorry And please don't counter with 'he died the day before the trial' as no system is perfect, but arbitary confiscation is not the way to go Edited July 25, 2017 by knock out johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Death duty is particularly onerous because it is taken from money that has already been taxed. Onerous means involving a great deal of effort, trouble, or difficulty. How exactly is inheritance tax supposed to be onerous, compared to other forms of tax? Millions of people rely on their salary to pay the mortgage, or rent, and various bills and living expenses. Very few people rely on their inheritances! And quite often the inheritance takes the form of money, or something quite liquid, so it is quite easy to pay. I agree that it's onerous to pay inheritance tax on property, but you only have to pay this above a fairly high threshold. If you are passing on a property above this value, it's quite straightforward to plan for this with a whole of life policy to make it less onerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThoughtCriminal Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 People in favour of higher taxes yet they don't voluntarily donate more of their wealth and income to the state. How curious...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CunningPlan Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, ThoughtCriminal said: People in favour of higher taxes yet they don't voluntarily donate more of their wealth and income to the state. How curious...... No. People in favour of switching taxes from income to hoarded wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 40 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: If the taxes were collected. The left always assume that govts can do anything and it won't impact on individual freedoms. The right assume that too these days. There's an incredibly small difference between the left and right, and if the right are far too left-wing given their criticisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 On 24/07/2017 at 5:12 PM, Errol said: It would never work anyway. People would just buy gold and bury it in the ground. Or keep all money in cash. Or buy precious stones etc etc etc. There are any number of ways available. Cars privately owned becoming very fashionable as a store of wealth now, nice and mobile in more ways than one. Trying taxing something that does 0-60 in less than 5 seconds as you say loads of ways to lose it so dead duck as a policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 1 hour ago, knock out johnny said: ...and LVT (goes without saying) I definitely agree with this and would happily have LVT instead of IHT. But I think the impact of LVT and IHT would have significant overlap. Under IHT you pay tax on the inheritance (often property is a siginificant part of the ineritance). Under LVT there would be no tax to pay upon death, but the payment of LVT would reduce the inheritance due to the tax paid and the reduction in the property value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) On 24/07/2017 at 7:23 PM, Upabove said: Do you know what the wealthiest surname on average in the UK is? Goldsmith. Aka the richest people today are the same families who were wealthiest 1000 years ago. That isn't right. Completely sympathise with some of the lack of faith with tax on here, but if you need to raise tax why not do it while addressing social mobility and unearned wealth at the same time? Increase inheritance tax and cut income tax I am not bothered though why are you ? as the late Duck of Westminster said when asked how do you amass a fortune like yours ? 'have an ancestor who was mates with William the Conqueror' Your not going to change that are you ? Stealing off middle income and self made business people is typical socialist thinking to try a fix a perceived wrong from centuries ago. We have a bloated out of control state that encourages welfare dependency why give it more money? Edited July 25, 2017 by Greg Bowman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 17 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: Cars privately owned becoming very fashionable as a store of wealth now, nice and mobile in more ways than one. Trying taxing something that does 0-60 in less than 5 seconds as you say loads of ways to lose it so dead duck as a policy Some cars retain their value long term, even increase in value. But as car has a registered owner it is traceable and taxable for inheritance. I think that the speed of the car is irrelevant other than as a rhetorical flourish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maynardgravy Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: I am not bothered though why are you ? as the late Duck of Westminster said when asked how do you amass a fortune like yours ? 'have an ancestor who was mates with William the Conqueror' Your not going to change that are you ? Stealing off middle income and self made business people is typical socialist thinking to try a fix a perceived wrong from centuries ago. We have a bloated out of control state that encourages welfare dependency why give it more money? I think you'll find very few on this forum who would see the money go to the welfare system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ah-so said: Some can retain their value long term, even increase in value. But as car has a registered owner it is traceable and taxable for inheritance. I think that the speed of the car is irrelevant other than as a rhetorical flourish. It doesn't have a registered owner just a keeper...I have the reg document of my company car its not mine though... ' A registration document (V5) is not proof of ownership. The registered keeper should be the person who is actually using / keeping the vehicle' almost like a ready made trust fund ! Many cars retain their value its just a question of knowing what to look for, many are going up now An American resource but there are Euro equivalents http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-invcar04.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: I am not bothered though why are you ? as the late Duck of Westminster said when asked how do you amass a fortune like yours ? 'have an ancestor who was mates with William the Conqueror' I suspect that it would have been most unlikely that the Duke would have used the term "mates", so this story sounds rather apocryphal. I'm well over 20 years younger than the late Duke and can still remember feeling a bit awkward when one of my friends from school started using the term when in his 20s. I think he picked up while up at Cambridge, of all places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: It doesn't have a registered owner just a keeper...I have the reg document of my company car its not mine though... ' A registration document (V5) is not proof of ownership. The registered keeper should be the person who is actually using / keeping the vehicle' almost like a ready made trust fund ! Many cars retain their value its just a question of knowing what to look for, many are going up now An American resource but there are Euro equivalents http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-invcar04.html You are right - the owner of a car does not have to be its keeper - a situation that exists in my own household. But a gift is still a gift, and taxable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: I am not bothered though why are you ? as the late Duck of Westminster said when asked how do you amass a fortune like yours ? 'have an ancestor who was mates with William the Conqueror' Your not going to change that are you ? Stealing off middle income and self made business people is typical socialist thinking to try a fix a perceived wrong from centuries ago. We have a bloated out of control state that encourages welfare dependency why give it more money? I'm not really sure about the first part. The Duke of Westminster owns a lot of property. If there were higher inheritance tax or land value tax or other wealth tax he couldn't avoid it. In that case, how could that fail to change? If there were a higher IHT above £50m and that was used to mitigate as far as possible increase in the state pension age, or tuition fees, or whatever I don't see how that would create welfare dependency or whatever. If IHT were cut, other taxes would rise, or expenditures would decrease. Maybe many middle income and self-made business people would end up paying more other taxes and so face a higher overall tax burden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 9 hours ago, Ah-so said: You are right - the owner of a car does not have to be its keeper - a situation that exists in my own household. But a gift is still a gift, and taxable. Laws are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men my friend and tax laws particularly fall into that category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ah-so said: I suspect that it would have been most unlikely that the Duke would have used the term "mates", so this story sounds rather apocryphal. I'm well over 20 years younger than the late Duke and can still remember feeling a bit awkward when one of my friends from school started using the term when in his 20s. I think he picked up while up at Cambridge, of all places. 'An FT reporter, working through a standard set of questions, once asked him what advice he’d give to young entrepreneurs keen to emulate his success. “Make sure they have an ancestor who was a very close friend of William the Conqueror,” he replied' close enough ? from the FT website bet your a joy when getting a bit of banter going down the pub lol Edited July 26, 2017 by Greg Bowman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 33 minutes ago, Greg Bowman said: 'An FT reporter, working through a standard set of questions, once asked him what advice he’d give to young entrepreneurs keen to emulate his success. “Make sure they have an ancestor who was a very close friend of William the Conqueror,” he replied' close enough ? from the FT website bet your a joy when getting a bit of banter going down the pub lol While a more reliable source, it still wasn't enough to lift it from an apocryphal story into a real one, it was just that the FT reporter was smart enough to know that the Duke would never have used the term "mate". The usual lack of dates and context are classic symptoms. But I may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 We live, we work, we amass wealth, we die. We want to leave that wealth to whomever we wish, "they" want to confiscate that wealth and give it to whomever they wish! QED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Ah-so said: the FT reporter was smart enough to know that the Duke would never have used the term "mate". 13 hours ago, Greg Bowman said: the late Duck of Westminster The Duke wouldn't, but what about the Duck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbonic Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 13 hours ago, Greg Bowman said: It doesn't have a registered owner just a keeper...I have the reg document of my company car its not mine though... ' A registration document (V5) is not proof of ownership. The registered keeper should be the person who is actually using / keeping the vehicle' almost like a ready made trust fund ! Many cars retain their value its just a question of knowing what to look for, many are going up now An American resource but there are Euro equivalents http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-invcar04.html A mate of mine restores 1970s motorcycles. One guy bought one (a fully restored iconic Kawasaki 2 stroke 500 triple) and just has it as a ornament in the corner of a room in his house (one that the Mail would invariably call a mansion I assume). There's £12k of wealth right there. It's value will fluctuate but it will never plunge in value like a new bike will. Personally I'd enjoy looking at it a lot more than £14k's worth of pottery or painting. So there's that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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