Countdown to leveraged BTL going bust thread

[spyguy]

Still, silver linging - therell soon be 16 flats and a house up for sale, cheap.

Thatll help the rentla situation.

 

 

[Clarky Cat]

12 minutes ago, spyguy said:

“I feel sorry for some of my tenants who have rented from me for years, some are single mums and on benefits. Where are they gonna go? What happens to all the people renting from landlords like myself who are selling up now?”

This is usually the line that's brought up about landlords selling up isn't it. The flat/house is being sold so where will the tenants all go? But then that property is either going to be bought by a renter - in which case another rental property becomes free - or another landlord. In either case the overall supply:demand balance for the rentals remains the same. 

[iamnumerate]

20 minutes ago, spyguy said:

From TOS

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/oct/26/people-falling-behind-on-mortgage-repayments-interest-rates-arrears

Ignore the othe fkwits.

Sophie Siangolis, buy-to-let borrower

Siangolis, who owns 16 rental flats with her husband in her home town of Weston-super-Mare, Bristol and Highbridge in Somerset, says relentless interest rate increases this year will almost certainly force them to sell their properties.

“The rents are no longer covering our mortgages; we’ve had a shortfall every month of between £2,500 and £3,500 for the past six months. We’re on SVR and the payments have doubled. I tried a couple of days ago to talk with some lenders about switching to a fixed rate, but they wanted to charge a fee of £3,000 for each property to go on a fixed deal, so it’s not worth it.

“We’re now in arrears of around £900 with service charges that we can’t pay. We’re panicking because we’ve got no money left, and can maximally carry on for another three months.”

Siangolis says the mortgage for one of her flats in Highbridge now costs £1,000 a month, plus £120 service charge. “But I only get £650 rent. We’ve put the rents up but they’ve got to be affordable for people. I can’t increase them further.

“We’ve had these properties for a long time, from between 2005 and 2007, but we’re having to sell them now, if we can.”

One of their properties, Siangolis says, is on the market, “a tiny two-bed flat in Bristol”, but the couple have only had one viewing and no offers. Some of their properties are in negative equity as they were bought in 2007, before the global financial crash.

“One sympathetic lender said to me: ‘A lot of people are in the same position as you.’ It frustrates me that the government can’t see the bigger picture. There’s a shortfall of rentals already,” Siangolis says.

“I feel sorry for some of my tenants who have rented from me for years, some are single mums and on benefits. Where are they gonna go? What happens to all the people renting from landlords like myself who are selling up now?”

Surely any property in the South West bought in 2007 would not be in negative equity now?

[Locke]

5 minutes ago, Clarky Cat said:

This is usually the line that's brought up about landlords selling up isn't it. The flat/house is being sold so where will the tenants all go? But then that property is either going to be bought by a renter - in which case another rental property becomes free - or another landlord. In either case the overall supply:demand balance for the rentals remains the same. 

Depends, if a single person bought it to live in, then there would overall be more demand for living space.

Of course, the amount of living space consumed per person is highly variable - people commonly used to have 2 bed houses with 4+ children!

If the cost of living space rises, people will simply consume less of it.

[Locke]

23 minutes ago, spyguy said:

From TOS

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/oct/26/people-falling-behind-on-mortgage-repayments-interest-rates-arrears

 

Siangolis says the mortgage for one of her flats in Highbridge now costs £1,000 a month, plus £120 service charge. “But I only get £650 rent. We’ve put the rents up but they’ve got to be affordable for people. I can’t increase them further.

What's the market price for an asset with a negative yield?

[Frankie Teardrop]

24 minutes ago, spyguy said:

“We’ve had these properties for a long time, from between 2005 and 2007, but we’re having to sell them now, if we can.”

Goes  against the mainstream narrative that its only late entrant BTLers who are in trouble.

[spyguy]

Just now, iamnumerate said:

Surely any property in the South West bought in 2007 would not be in negative equity now?

Not if its an IO mortgage and  you keep on extracting equity form it ....

My view of house prices is that the UK housing has been a false market since 2007.

Again, you can see it it in the mortgage approvals - 

 

Poof! Like that.

Locally, Browns boom doubled HP from 99 -> 2004, and there theyve remained stuck.

I bought in ~2010ish - the ability ot fix low n long was too tempting/no brainer.

What Ill lose in HP, Ive more than save in the fkall IR Ive paid.

But I was in n out of the mortgage in 7 years.

Its only ZIRP and idiots in IO BTL that have kept what little market their is.

Now IR are higher people are goign to have divest of properdee psotions. A lot of vast loss to them n their bank.

 

 

 

[LivingWithTheInlaws]

27 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Siangolis, who owns rents 16 rental flats from the bank with her husband in her home town of Weston-super-Mare, Bristol and Highbridge in Somerset, says relentless interest rate increases this year will almost certainly force them to sell their properties.

Fixed

[spyguy]

2 minutes ago, Locke said:

What's the market price for an asset with a negative yield?

Well, acorrding the Steve, homeowner, doley, Siwndon - 

Stephen McKeown, 61, homeowner

McKeown bought his three-bedroom house in Swindon in 2018 for £253,000 on a five-year fixed mortgage deal at 2.69% interest, and was comfortably able to afford repayments.

He managed to build up equity of about £155,000 in his property, but when he lost his job in conservation education during the pandemic, he started using savings to afford mortgage payments of about £1,200 a month.

...

“It’s been up for sale since May, but it’s a very difficult market. I dropped the asking price from offers over £325,000 to £300,000, and had an offer in July, but then the buyer pulled out, which left me adrift.

 

~75k more than he paid for it,5y ago.

 

[Clarky Cat]

4 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Surely any property in the South West bought in 2007 would not be in negative equity now?

Quick search for the area mentioned in the article - Highbridge

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/62876229/

On for £125,000

Sold 2006 - £149,950

So if that was bought on IO in 2006 then could still be in negative equity

Just shows how ridiculous the 2000s boom was

 

[Frankie Teardrop]

They will have leveraged up from one or two properties to get to 16.
As soon as prices and yields go against them then their "multi-millionaire landlord" status goes tits-up very very quickly.

The huge sideplate of chips to go with the salad in the article's picture sums it up nicely.

[msi]

7 minutes ago, Frankie Teardrop said:

They will have leveraged up from one or two properties to get to 16.
As soon as prices and yields go against them then their "multi-millionaire landlord" status goes tits-up very very quickly.

The huge sideplate of chips to go with the salad in the article's picture sums it up nicely.

'Hand back'.....that implies a return to the actual owner...

[spyguy]

16 minutes ago, Frankie Teardrop said:

They will have leveraged up from one or two properties to get to 16.
As soon as prices and yields go against them then their "multi-millionaire landlord" status goes tits-up very very quickly.

The huge sideplate of chips to go with the salad in the article's picture sums it up nicely.

That the issue.

Lets put in 150k for each flat.

You have a pair of small town scratters whove borrowed ~2m .. on IO basis .... which they cant afford with BoE rates over 4%

 

[iamnumerate]

37 minutes ago, Clarky Cat said:

Quick search for the area mentioned in the article - Highbridge

https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/62876229/

On for £125,000

Sold 2006 - £149,950

So if that was bought on IO in 2006 then could still be in negative equity

Just shows how ridiculous the 2000s boom was

 

Wow, thanks for that. In London I think prices are much higher than 2006 now (thanks to HTB and immigration).

[winkie]

1 hour ago, Locke said:

Depends, if a single person bought it to live in, then there would overall be more demand for living space.

Of course, the amount of living space consumed per person is highly variable - people commonly used to have 2 bed houses with 4+ children!

If the cost of living space rises, people will simply consume less of it.

Good point, we expect more space, more bedrooms and bathrooms, bigger plots.....how many bedrooms does one person require, plenty have more than one?.......so more extremes, those with more than enough living space v those living in one small room with microwave, share of shower and toilet down the corridor.....when the same number of people insist on more space, more living space has to be made available......living with four or five people and two bedrooms simply not good enough for them. 

[msi]

Mortgage arrears up sharply with landlords hit hard

Some choice quotes...

Quote

Rising interest rates have put pressure on homeowners, with UK Finance data showing 87,930 in arrears, up 18% compared with the same time a year ago....Among landlords, the number in arrears doubled in a year.

 

Quote

UK Finance said the number of buy-to-let mortgages in arrears was 11,540 in the third quarter of the year, up 29% on the previous three months and double the level of a year earlier.

Looks like you can't just jack up rents....

 

Quote

However, separate figures from the Ministry of Justice, also published on Thursday, show that the number of cases in England and Wales at the first stage of the process - a repossession claim - rose to 4,185 in July to September. That was an increase of 14% compared with the same period a year earlier. However, actual repossessions fell to a very low 622.

 

Quote

Despite the sharp rise in mortgages in arrears, those deals still represent just 1% of all mortgages, UK Finance said.

Remind me what happens at the Margins....

 

[MattW]

Seems like the chap I bought from exited the BTL pyramid scheme just in time. The flat I now "own" was the 7th property in his BTL portfolio.

And for extra altruism points, I handed the keys back to a council flat when I moved in.

[iamnumerate]

2 hours ago, MattW said:

Seems like the chap I bought from exited the BTL pyramid scheme just in time. The flat I now "own" was the 7th property in his BTL portfolio.

And for extra altruism points, I handed the keys back to a council flat when I moved in.

Do you think he was a winner or loser from BTL?

[MattW]

10 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

Do you think he was a winner or loser from BTL

Regarding the 2 bedroomed flat I bought he's done very well in terms of capital appreciation. Only the bare minimum has been done to it in the 21 years he owned it. Last tenant was paying £650 a month. There was a mortgage on it while he still owned it.