Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[zugzwang]

9 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

This might sound controversial, but why cant Asda pay more than £13.50 (London wages) an hour, even if it meant putting an extra few pence on your shopping?  

https://www.asda.jobs/vacancy/hgv-driver-18242-dartford-kent/18261/description/

Moreover, the single market relies on this cheap labour to function much of the haulage network on the continent...

https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/opinion/free-movement-for-truck-drivers-social-rights/

 

It's simple supply and demand. Hardly controversial.

 

 

[slawek]

9 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

So you accept that I am right?

You are making a fuss about something, which is just a name. This name makes sense in the EU law, because they concerns members of the EU, non-EU countries are third countries (equivalent of third-parties in commercial agreements).

Are you offended by this term? You anti-EU paranoia is getting worse.      

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, slawek said:

You are making a fuss about something, which is just a name. This name makes sense in the EU law, because they concerns members of the EU, non-EU countries are third countries (equivalent of third-parties in commercial agreements).

Are you offended by this term? You anti-EU paranoia is getting worse.      

I'm not offended by the term. I'm using it to illustrate a structural feature of the EU system that creates a division between "Team Europe" and the others.

[rollover]

A VOCAL Brexiteer and political commentator has been mocked after suggesting The Sun’s video of Matt Hancock kissing close aide Gina Coladangelo had been “doctored”.

 

“Maybe it is time you drove to Barnard Castle?” suggested Fionna O’Leary. “It’s her hand.”

Edward Norman joked: “He does appear to be snogging her but that could be his spare head.”

Any suspicion over whether the footage is doctored is entirely irrelevant given Hancock has apologised. Would you apologise for something you hadn't done?

thenational

[slawek]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

I'm not offended by the term. I'm using it to illustrate a structural feature of the EU system that creates a division between "Team Europe" and the others.

It is not a structural features. It is an existential truism.  An existence of something implies there is something else.  Existence of the EU implies there is something which is not the EU. Lawyers chose a term "third country" borrowed from the commercial law "third-party". 

[thecrashingisles]

5 minutes ago, slawek said:

It is not a structural features. It is an existential truism.  An existence of something implies there is something else.  Existence of the EU implies there is something which is not the EU. Lawyers chose a term "third country" borrowed from the commercial law "third-party". 

Right, so the existence of the EU depends on distinguishing between EU and non-EU, and furthermore it encourages making that distinction as sharp as possible to show the value of membership.

[OnionTerror]

27 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

It's simple supply and demand. Hardly controversial.

 

 

So demand for drivers is high, but the wages of drivers is still poor.. How do you coax people into the profession, where they could earn far more in other professions?  If demand for drivers are high, why arent firms offering, say £20 p/h?

[slawek]

Just now, thecrashingisles said:

Right, so the existence of the EU depends on distinguishing between EU and non-EU, and furthermore it encourages making that distinction as sharp as possible to show the value of membership.

It doesn't depend, it is just an existential fact. 

The existence of the EU is a much better state than a lack of it. It reduces barriers among EU members but doesn't not between EU members and non-EU members, which would still exist without the EU anyway.  

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

24 minutes ago, rollover said:

Any suspicion over whether the footage is doctored is entirely irrelevant given Hancock has apologised. Would you apologise for something you hadn't done?

Only in the case of a request by BLM supporters for past slavery and genocides.

[dugsbody]

2 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Nations do not treat each other equally, never have and never will

@thecrashingisles has succumbed to the dark side. He/she now needs to rely on the absurd to justify their views.

 

[zugzwang]

Just now, Dave Beans said:

So demand for drivers is high, but the wages of drivers is still poor.. How do you coax people into the profession, where they could earn far more in other professions?  If demand for drivers are high, why arent firms offering, say £20 p/h?

 

Exploitation. It's what happens when you don't have a unionised workforce.

Happily, it looks like the supermarkets are about to get their comeuppance.

 

 

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

One argument I'm surprised Brexiteers did not make more to appeal to more liberal-leaning waverers was the inherent and structural racism of Britain's immigration as a member of the EU.

Many did make it. We saw through the ruse as yet another faux moral high ground.

1 hour ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Personally, as long as an immigrant knuckles down when they get here and contributes, they're more than welcome especially those who give the country a competitive/cultural advantage.

And the same people who use this argument will also tell you that FoM is evil because it creates brain drain where we steal all the young people from poorer countries who then suffer.

It is all completely muddled up thinking and the reason is that all of these arguments are invented to justify their already held views.

[OnionTerror]

10 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

Exploitation. It's what happens when you don't have a unionised workforce.

Happily, it looks like the supermarkets are about to get their comeuppance.

 

 

Truck drivers are supposed to be the backbone of the country (AFAIK, in the UK at least, around 90% of freight is carted around by truck)...They took them for granted for too long, as they thought they could underpin the whole system by imported labour.  It shows how much they value them, by paying them 13 quid an hour..

Edited June 27, 2021 by Dave Beans

[rollover]

4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

Truck drivers are supposed to be the backbone of the country (AFAIK, in the UK at least, around 90% of freight is carted around by truck)...They took them for granted for too long, as they thought they could underpin the whole system by imported labour.  It shows how much they value them, by paying them 13 quid an hour..

Just-in-Time delivery has many advantages - ordering and receiving inventory for production or sales only as needed, reducing warehousing costs because inventory is constantly on the move. This process significantly improves efficiency, while presenting numerous cost-saving opportunities.

But the post-Brexit Britain is currently short of 100 000 EU drivers.

Hmmm ...., who could be blamed for this?

[OnionTerror]

1 minute ago, rollover said:

Just-in-Time delivery has many advantages - ordering and receiving inventory for production or sales only as needed, reducing warehousing costs because inventory is constantly on the move. This process significantly improves efficiency, while presenting numerous cost-saving opportunities.

But the post-Brexit Britain is currently short of 100 000 EU drivers.

Hmmm ...., who could be blamed for this?

...but to what cost, further down the chain? Similar types of exploitation is happening in agriculture too..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/lorry-drivers-from-outside-eu-exploited-in-lockdown-delivery-surge

https://www.itfglobal.org/en/sector/road-transport/european-trucking-exploitation-of-workers

[kzb]

12 minutes ago, rollover said:

Just-in-Time delivery has many advantages - ordering and receiving inventory for production or sales only as needed, reducing warehousing costs because inventory is constantly on the move. This process significantly improves efficiency, while presenting numerous cost-saving opportunities.

But the post-Brexit Britain is currently short of 100 000 EU drivers.

Hmmm ...., who could be blamed for this?

I wouldn't mind this as a part time job approaching retirement.  Will they train me how to drive HGVs for free?  Where do I sign up?

Also there are a lot of NEETs round here, will they round them up and train them to drive trucks?

[zugzwang]

42 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Only in the case of a request by BLM supporters for past slavery and genocides.

 

That request has never been made by BLM supporters. It's always been a matter of private conscience whether you choose to publicly acknowledge their cause or not.

 

[zugzwang]

6 minutes ago, kzb said:

I wouldn't mind this as a part time job approaching retirement.  Will they train me how to drive HGVs for free?  Where do I sign up?

Also there are a lot of NEETs round here, will they round them up and train them to drive trucks?

 

Rounded up? Forced labour? Careful, you're letting the mask slip.

[rollover]

11 minutes ago, kzb said:

I wouldn't mind this as a part time job approaching retirement.  Will they train me how to drive HGVs for free?  Where do I sign up?

Also there are a lot of NEETs round here, will they round them up and train them to drive trucks?

[Sheer Heart Attack]

45 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Many did make it. We saw through the ruse as yet another faux moral high ground.

And the same people who use this argument will also tell you that FoM is evil because it creates brain drain where we steal all the young people from poorer countries who then suffer.

It is all completely muddled up thinking and the reason is that all of these arguments are invented to justify their already held views.

So it's only structurally racist if you think it is despite the fact that 500m predominantly white people could come and go from the UK whereas 7bn mainly non-white people had to jump through hoops?

Not very diverse or inclusive really, is it?

And you don't see a moral problem with having 25,809 NHS staff trained in India but working here nor 22,043 Filipino staff, 8,241 Nigeran staff, 4,313 Pakistani staff, 4,192 Zimbabwean staff, and so on?

Do you not think those countries need those staff? Britain, in line with the rest of the EU and the "developed" world, is acting as a parasite on the economic growth and wellbeing of countries which can barely afford it.

A kind of reverse colonialism, if you ask me.

As for brain drain from poorer countries, it is a reality. Croatia's goverment has called its migration exodus an "“essential” problem for the country of 4.2 million — an outflow mirrored in other member states to the EU’s east, where faster-growing economies struggle to find sufficient workers.

"According to the EU’s statistics office, 15% of working-age Croats now live in other member states, the second highest proportion after Romania." (source: EURACTIV).

In the EU, "countries such as Romania, Poland, Italy, and Portugal are especially affected by brain drain, while other countries such as Sweden, Ireland, Estonia, and Denmark notice the opposite effect, namely brain gain." (source: AER.EU)

Unrestricted immigration negatively impacts unskilled native populations as well as developing nations' chances to advance - it is undeniable.

With respect, it's muddled up thinking to deny the real-world negative consequences of something you believe in which is what you appear to be doing.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Sheer Heart Attack
Add second citation link

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

17 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

 

That request has never been made by BLM supporters. It's always been a matter of private conscience whether you choose to publicly acknowledge their cause or not.

 

 

And to be fair, I thought Gordon Brown or Tony Blair had already.

[dugsbody]

1 minute ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

So it's only structurally racist if you think it is despite the fact that 500m predominantly white people could come and go from the UK whereas 7bn mainly non-white people had to jump through hoops?

The UK was in a European Union. A union designed to unite those people. FoM was baked in, it wasn't designed as a policy to exclude people. What the member nations do with regards the their immigration policy to anyone not in the union is up to them.

The UK is four nations who have formed a union and guess what? They have FoM that only includes the "largely white population of those four nations". I know 100% you're going to have some contrived reason why this is acceptable and the EU FoM is not but please spare me, I know and you know you don't really believe what you're typing, you're just trying to create a fake moral high ground.

6 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

And you don't see a moral problem with having 25,809 NHS staff trained in India but working here nor 22,043 Filipino staff, 8,241 Nigeran staff, 4,313 Pakistani staff, 4,192 Zimbabwean staff, and so on?

That argument is designed as a trap. Brexiters only use it when convenient. They love the points based policy because it allows them to claim they're "more fair and equal to the whole world", while at the same time claiming FoM was awful because it stole the best and brightest from poor EE countries. Contradictory views.

Your arguments are just the repeated gibberish we've heard over and over. And I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt at first.

[zugzwang]

3 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

And to be fair, I thought Gordon Brown or Tony Blair had already.

Asked us to take a knee? I don't remember that!

[Sheer Heart Attack]

Just now, dugsbody said:

The UK was in a European Union. A union designed to unite those people. FoM was baked in, it wasn't designed as a policy to exclude people. What the member nations do with regards the their immigration policy to anyone not in the union is up to them.

The UK is four nations who have formed a union and guess what? They have FoM that only includes the "largely white population of those four nations". I know 100% you're going to have some contrived reason why this is acceptable and the EU FoM is not but please spare me, I know and you know you don't really believe what you're typing, you're just trying to create a fake moral high ground.

That argument is designed as a trap. Brexiters only use it when convenient. They love the points based policy because it allows them to claim they're "more fair and equal to the whole world", while at the same time claiming FoM was awful because it stole the best and brightest from poor EE countries. Contradictory views.

Your arguments are just the repeated gibberish we've heard over and over. And I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt at first.

You see - this is the essence of the problem with Remoaners.

Whether through FoM or via a points-based system, we are stealing the best and the brightest from often poorer countries.

Poorer countries with just as much potential and talent as the UK to progress.

Your denial of the consequences of FoM in particular and from poorer EU countries suggests that you actually know this is a problem but you couldn't give a shit about it.

Instead of acting as a massive parasite on other countries, why not upskill our own people instead?

And, just for the avoidance of doubt, I don't need the benefit of the doubt from you as I am sure you don't need it from me.

[dugsbody]

2 minutes ago, Sheer Heart Attack said:

Your denial of the consequences of FoM in particular and from poorer EU countries suggests that you actually know this is a problem but you couldn't give a shit about it.

No, I don't accept it as a long term problem because I fundamentally believe it is right and good for societies for humans to "be allowed" (*) to move around. We do it in the UK as I already said for goodness sake. I trust you're not out campaigning for removal of that right because it creates brain drain in county Durham?

Those countries you are concerned about who have joined the EU are prospering and will continue to prosper. Everyone made the same argument about Poland ("brain drain, oh poor Poland, I don't want Polish people living near me because I'm so worried about Poland"). Poland's wages have risen significantly and will continue to rise and the migration will not continue. Same will happen in other countries.

(*) Allowed = you want to box more people into their tiny geography and pretend it is because you care about them so much.