Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[HairyOb1]

In Brexits next episode of sh17 that will make a remainer giggle...

(and apologies for using this rag)

Turkeys asks for FOM in exchange for FTA

Edited May 16, 2018 by HairyOb1

[thehowler]

24 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Why the **** should someone's birth place have anything to do with any argument?

It's that most dangerous part of the magic show, Hairy, national identity. I have accepted that growing up in the UK and having a very tangled and absorbed sense of place/familiarity with Brit cultural tropes, music, politics, family etc does not mean I have any innate superiority or right to a view than anyone else who is here legally participating in the way Britain is attempting to redefine itself. But some people find this tricky.

When I see the Spitfire burning on the beach and hear the Elgar it raises all kinds of questions in my mind about what it means to be British. Have you ever been inside Buckingham Palace? If you have, you'll have seen the conditioning motifs of the empire, acres of gold gilt, red carpets, underlings in obscure RAF uniform, it's quite overpowering. I've been exposed to this since childhood, and remember gripping my Jubilee school mug festooned with same motifs, being ordered to smile and be grateful for it. For some people in the Brexit identity revolution - for that's what it is for Brits - the weird rush of patriotic identity is too much and they flip out. I can recognize that the burning Spitfire and the white cliffs and the Elgar is all still there for me, somewhere - happened, and can't be excised - but my rational mind holds the tiller and I can respect the views and contributions of all players, including the most recent - and hopeful - arrivals to these shores, those who are willing to listen and reflect on the arguments - they have an equal and important say.

That's what makes Blighty so wonderful.

Edited May 16, 2018 by thehowler

[GrizzlyDave]

24 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Why the **** should someone's birth place have anything to do with any argument?  It's sh17 like this that outs you for what you are, for this shouldn't be anything to do with the debate.

I think that's the issue now, in all of the world, in that people are confusing, nay, conflating nationalism with patriotism, for they are not the same things, can be mutually exclusive.

For every Nationalist you show me, I'll not find a patriot most of the time.

 

19 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Nationalists are freedom fighters. Or they start to tip, and then they go to war to show their country is better than others.

Patriots just have that warm inner glow...

Sorry guys I don’t get the distinction. Patriots and I think George Washington, Nationalists and I think Alec Salmon. Both love their countries and want independence... 

[HairyOb1]

3 minutes ago, thehowler said:

It's that most dangerous part of the magic show, Hairy, national identity. I have accepted that growing up in the UK and having a very tangled and absorbed sense of place/familiarity with Brit cultural tropes, music, politics, family etc does not mean I have any innate superiority or right to a view than anyone else who is here legally participating in the way Britain is attempting to redefine itself. But some people find this tricky.

When I see the Spitfire burning on the beach and hear the Elgar it raises all kinds of questions in my mind about what it means to be British. Have you ever been inside Buckingham Palace? If you have, you'll have seen the conditioning motifs of the empire, acres of gold gilt, red carpets, underlings in obscure RAF uniform, it's quite overpowering. I've been exposed to this since childhood, and remember gripping my Jubilee school mug festooned with same motifs, being ordered to smile and be grateful for it. For some people in the Brexit identity revolution - for that's what it is for Brits - the weird rush of patriotic identity is too much and they flip out. I can recognize that the burning Spitfire and the white cliffs and the Elgar is all still there for me, somewhere - happened, and can't be excised - but my rational mind holds the tiller and I can respect the views and contributions of all players, including the most recent - and hopeful - arrivals to these shores, those who are willing to listen and reflect on the arguments - they have an equal and important say.

That's what makes Blighty so wonderful.

It is one of the magical things about this country.  We're a nation built on an empire, and that means people have come here from al over the world, to call this place home, me included.  However, some people, who call themselves both patriots and Nationalists, still think it's worthy as a stick to beat them with.  It isn't, and your words exemplify what it should be to be British, to be inclusive, welcoming.  Not ask someone where they are from in a discussion as you think it's important, as it isn't. 

Thanks

[HairyOb1]

3 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 

Sorry guys I don’t get the distinction. Patriots and I think George Washington, Nationalists and I think Alec Salmon. Both love their countries and want independence... 

We can disagree on this.  I think Washington comes from a time where the words, notions, were linked, but they aren't anymore, not naturally.  Nationalism isn't loving your country, it's shutting the doors to anyone else, Patriotism isn't.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

We can disagree on this.  I think Washington comes from a time where the words, notions, were linked, but they aren't anymore, not naturally.  Nationalism isn't loving your country, it's shutting the doors to anyone else, Patriotism isn't.

Maybe Washington is a bad example - as you say a different era.

Where would you place Carles Puigdemont? Patriot or Nationalist?

To my mind he’s both, as he is proud and loves his country (patriot) and wants independence (nationalist); but reaches out to the EU and seeks to retain membership (as does Sturgeon).

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Maybe Washington is a bad example - as you say a different era.

Where would you place Carles Puigdemont? Patriot or Nationalist?

To my mind he’s both, as he is proud and loves his country (patriot) and wants independence (nationalist); but reaches out to the EU and seeks to retain membership (as does Sturgeon).

I don't think he loves his country, by definition, he prefers a separate state, which will then be his country.

You know my thoughts about this anyway, I support all regions to be autonomous, with a localised governing arm that reports to the EU - I've travelled enough to know that even in places like France, Spain, Germany, and us, we're very different people from region to region, so it makes sense to regionalise government, and centrally control it in the EU, well, to me it does.  Living in the SW of the UK, we're ignored, regarding infrastructure and money.  I told a story here not long ago when there were catastrophic floods here.  We were given platitudes and empty rhetoric.  2 weeks later the Thames flooded at Maidenhead and the Army were there by Midnight.

No, decentralise government, remove Westminster out of the equations.  Money would be more equally distributed.

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

I don't think he loves his country, by definition, he prefers a separate state, which will then be his country. Touché

You know my thoughts about this anyway, I support all regions to be autonomous, with a localised governing arm that reports to the EU - I've travelled enough to know that even in places like France, Spain, Germany, and us, we're very different people from region to region, so it makes sense to regionalise government, and centrally control it in the EU, well, to me it does.  Living in the SW of the UK, we're ignored, regarding infrastructure and money.  I told a story here not long ago when there were catastrophic floods here.  We were given platitudes and empty rhetoric.  2 weeks later the Thames flooded at Maidenhead and the Army were there by Midnight.

No, decentralise government, remove Westminster out of the equations.  Money would be more equally distributed.

Stay on target red leader.

What you advocate makes a lot of sense - no my cup of tea - but logical.

Carles Puigdemont - patriot, nationalist, or both?

[HairyOb1]

4 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Stay on target red leader.

What you advocate makes a lot of sense - no my cup of tea - but logical.

Carles Puigdemont - patriot, nationalist, or both?

I think he's a nationalist, and patriot of Catalonia, not of Spain, and there's the dichotomy.

[GrizzlyDave]

13 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

I think he's a nationalist, and patriot of Catalonia, not of Spain, and there's the dichotomy.

That sounds about right.

[pig]

2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

You’re gonna get me quoting Tennyson again ?

What’s the difference between a patriot and a nationalist?

Very exclusive definition, you have to:

1. go to pub with mates

2. argue for a couple of hours around Brexit/nationalism etc

3. ...until somebody googles 'patriotism vs nationalism'

4. argue for another hour or so until somebody (remainer)  turns up for last orders, shots and says

5. 'its a bit brexity in here'

Ponder item 5 all the way home ...

PS I got lambasted for claiming its to do with the Kennedy quote 'its not what your country does for you.." because it was American shite. How ironic is that ?!

[ccc]

2 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

On that subject, do you consider yourself a British patriot or a Scottish patriot?

Neither. I'm not a flag waver in any sense really. However I do think I have more pride in my country (s) than a number of people on here do. I do like to view the positives. 

I can see from replies we have folk asking again what someone's nationality or birthplace has to do with the debate.

It's just basic courtesy. If you are going to give your opinion on a decision people have made - and at the same time tell them they are stupid for doing this it dumb for doing that - at least have the decency to explain where you sit in the debate. 

It has everything to do with this debate. If someone sitting in their bedroom in Burkino Faso wants to comment on why people in the UK voted brexit ? Well that's up to them. But their opinion really means very little. 

Personally I think pig must be from outside the UK and the EU. Because if they were from either then their view on the situation would be perfectly valid. 

If they are from outside then they are quite entitled to view their opinion - but are probably aware that their views will be responded to by many - with "What has this got to do with you ?"

So come on Pig. What's the problem. Spill the beans. 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

12 minutes ago, pig said:

Very exclusive definition, you have to:

1. go to pub with mates

2. argue for a couple of hours around Brexit/nationalism etc

3. ...until somebody googles 'patriotism vs nationalism'

4. argue for another hour or so until somebody (remainer)  turns up for last orders, shots and says

5. 'its a bit brexity in here'

Ponder item 5 all the way home ...

PS I got lambasted for claiming its to do with the Kennedy quote 'its not what your country does for you.." because it was American shite. How ironic is that ?!

Yeah that would make my head hurt too lol ?

[pig]

3 hours ago, ccc said:

It would be wouldn't it 

Pig has consistently ignored basic queries on where they are from. So I think we can take from that they aren't from these shores. 

If not - Pig feel free to speak up. You aren't exactly shy on anything else. 

So if they are a patriot they are a patriot of another country. 

No harm in us knowing. 

 ? ? ?

You should be working for the Home Office -  you've just found a way of exiling tens of millions of Britons from this country  ! 

Wouldn't it be better  if you could either  try tomake more of an effort think your way through these discussions or failing that at least try to get a grip of your 'issues' ?

 

[HairyOb1]

21 minutes ago, ccc said:

Neither. I'm not a flag waver in any sense really. However I do think I have more pride in my country (s) than a number of people on here do. I do like to view the positives. 

I can see from replies we have folk asking again what someone's nationality or birthplace has to do with the debate.

It's just basic courtesy. If you are going to give your opinion on a decision people have made - and at the same time tell them they are stupid for doing this it dumb for doing that - at least have the decency to explain where you sit in the debate. 

It has everything to do with this debate. If someone sitting in their bedroom in Burkino Faso wants to comment on why people in the UK voted brexit ? Well that's up to them. But their opinion really means very little. 

Personally I think pig must be from outside the UK and the EU. Because if they were from either then their view on the situation would be perfectly valid. 

If they are from outside then they are quite entitled to view their opinion - but are probably aware that their views will be responded to by many - with "What has this got to do with you ?"

So come on Pig. What's the problem. Spill the beans. 

 

Nice to know you're still ignoring me, not ignoring me.

First up, it's not part of the conversation, this thread is Brexit what happens next, not who the feck are you to comment on something British pal.

Secondly, Personally I think pig must be from outside the UK and the EU. Because if they were from either then their view on the situation would be perfectly valid. makes it look like you've been drinking, again. His view is perfectly valid.

Wind your neck in son, as all you're doing, is proving, once again, that nationalism, isn't the same as patriotism.  You've no right asking anyone what their nationality is, in a discussion on, reiterating, Brexit, what happens next.

3 minutes ago, pig said:

 ? ? ?

You should be working for the Home Office -  you've just found a way of exiling tens of millions of Britons from this country  ! 

Wouldn't it be better  if you could either  try tomake more of an effort think your way through these discussions or failing that at least try to get a grip of your 'issues' ?

 

And there we have it...

[ccc]

20 minutes ago, pig said:

 ? ? ?

You should be working for the Home Office -  you've just found a way of exiling tens of millions of Britons from this country  ! 

Wouldn't it be better  if you could either  try tomake more of an effort think your way through these discussions or failing that at least try to get a grip of your 'issues' ?

 

Why can't you even just say where you are from ?

It's a basic question that's no big deal. 

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

In Brexits next episode of sh17 that will make a remainer giggle...

(and apologies for using this rag)

Turkeys asks for FOM in exchange for FTA

That deserves a genuine LOL maybe even ROTFL. Still according to ccc they will only come here for their holidays.

The comments section is worth a read, the usual DE loons (or should that be Gammons) have been invaded by Guardianistas having a laugh at their expense. 

 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

14 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

That deserves a genuine LOL maybe even ROTFL. Still according to ccc they will only come here for their holidays.

The comments section is worth a read, the usual DE loons (or should that be Gammons) have been invaded by Guardianistas having a laugh at their expense. 

 

 

This term seems to be a la mode.

Seems quite offensive, possibly even racist?

[Confusion of VIs]

The real kicker will be the price the US extracts for a trade deal.  Trump sees our massive £33bn trade surplus as a problem to be solved and now wants to directly attack the NHS.

As 50% of our non EU exports go to the US, not signing a deal with the US makes Brexit pretty pointless but signing one will involve giving away more than we ever had to with the EU, in return for a far less valuable deal.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-plan-to-hike-drug-costs-proves-nhs-at-risk-in-post-brexit-uk-us-trade-deal-labour-warns-jonathan-ashworth-ed-balls-harvard-study_uk_5afc0d6ae4b06a3fb50c4848

 

[thecrashingisles]

5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

This term seems to be a la mode.

Seems quite offensive, possibly even racist?

 

[Confusion of VIs]

2 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

This term seems to be a la mode.

Seems quite offensive, possibly even racist?

Are you going all snowflake on us. 

It describes a mindset (small minded and bigoted) not a race. Unlike your colour or whether you are gay it is a choice to be a Gammon, so fair game to comment on. 

  

[GrizzlyDave]

Just now, Confusion of VIs said:

Are you going all snowflake on us. 

It describes a mindset (small minded and bigoted) not a race. Unlike your colour or whether you are gay it is a choice to be a Gammon, so fair game to comment on. 

  

You’re wrong - it describes a physical appearance - specifically red faced white middle aged brexiteers.

pot - kettle - black.

[Confusion of VIs]

Just now, GrizzlyDave said:

You’re wrong - it describes a physical appearance - specifically red faced white middle aged brexiteers.

pot - kettle - black.

No it describes a mindset, that often seems to be associated with that appearance. 

I recently found myself sat next to a large table of Gammons while on holiday - ex pats all red faced and pissed by lunchtime reading the daily mail (actually reading at the table) and moaning about immigrants, seemingly oblivious to the fact that they were immigrants.

 

[GrizzlyDave]

2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

No it describes a mindset, that often seems to be associated with that appearance. 

I recently found myself sat next to a large table of Gammons while on holiday - ex pats all red faced and pissed by lunchtime reading the daily mail (actually reading at the table) and moaning about immigrants, seemingly oblivious to the fact that they were immigrants.

 

Little Englander describes a mindset - gammon describes a physical appearance. Specifically certain white people. That’s very dubious territory to tread.

My personal view is that it lowers the tone of the debate. Remainers quite often extole masses of moral superiority. We’re more intelligent, funny, worldly, tolerant etc. By using lexicon such as Gammons - it just makes you come across as profoundly hypocritical.

[thehowler]

1 hour ago, ccc said:

Burkino Faso wants to comment on why people in the UK voted brexit ? Well that's up to them. But their opinion really means very little. 

If they can work out a way to solve Brexit I want to hear it!

It's FOM on this forum.