Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[dugsbody]

14 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Do you genuinely think we should be denoting ventilators to Italy/Greece or was this just another symptom of your Brexit derangement. 

No, no, neighbourly generosity is a standard brexiters only hold the EU to. They hold themselves to lower standards but cry like babies when the EU member states don't act like one mind.  

Edited March 21, 2020 by dugsbody

[pig]

50 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

No, no, neighbourly generosity is a standard brexiters only hold the EU to. They hold themselves to lower standards but cry like babies when the EU member states don't act like one mind.  

Yeah like border control - as soon as EU countries implement what brexiters swear blind they don't have it becomes a terrible thing lol

[dryrot]

3 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

One in the eye for Brexiteers more like. According to them the EU superstate would by now have taken, control instead the 27 independent states are operating like independent states. States that know they don't have enough equipment for their own populations. 

Do you genuinely think we should be denoting ventilators to Italy/Greece or was this just another symptom of your Brexit derangement. 

I've read the above 3 times and it still does'nt make sense. I'm sorry you seem to have lost the plot.

[dryrot]

3 hours ago, pig said:

Why would Coronavirus be such a disaster ? Thousands of people die of flu every year and most of us take a couple of days off work. It’s just experts scaremongering yet again and nanny-state publications piling in.  People quite rightly think this is a load of cr4p 

??? It's as if you dont have an argument at all.

[dryrot]

3 hours ago, dugsbody said:

You sounds positively gleeful at this news. Why do you care what happens in the EU, since you're now no longer part of it?

Oh and you're letting your mask slip :

#1 There's no glee. I'm sorry you feel that way. We should care about others. EU failings have hurt Greece and Italy (I will accept that some of the hurt is self-inflicted, but the Euro and EU have exacerbated it.)

 

#2. Ah well, you dont have an answer so smear the article.

[Confusion of VIs]

46 minutes ago, dryrot said:

I've read the above 3 times and it still does'nt make sense. I'm sorry you seem to have lost the plot.

Either that or you have a limited reading ability.  

I have just put the text through a sense/readability checker. It parsed ok but unfortunately it did come out with rather a high readability score. Not suitable for a Sun or Express reader but should be ok for a Telegraph Guardian reader.  

 

 

 

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

#1 There's no glee. I'm sorry you feel that way. We should care about others. EU failings have hurt Greece and Italy (I will accept that some of the hurt is self-inflicted, but the Euro and EU have exacerbated it.)

 

#2. Ah well, you dont have an answer so smear the article.

#1. If the EU did not exist, these problems would still exist. And who would you blame then? Their neighbours? Has the UK offered to ease the burden of these states? 

#2. You're having a laugh. Bolton? Why is it that virtually every time a brexiter posts some opinion piece proclaiming how badly the EU is failing, all I have to do is google the website and I know I'll find it is some sort of far right think tank? 

Your colours are showing.

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, dryrot said:

I've read the above 3 times and it still does'nt make sense. I'm sorry you seem to have lost the plot.

Just answer the question. Would you like the UK to donate ventilators to Italy or Greece? Would you like the UK to help with their migrant crisis?

[debtlessmanc]

5 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

One in the eye for Brexiteers more like. According to them the EU superstate would by now have taken, control instead the 27 independent states are operating like independent states. States that know they don't have enough equipment for their own populations. 

Do you genuinely think we should be denoting ventilators to Italy/Greece or was this just another symptom of your Brexit derangement. 

  

My irritation with this stuff is the usual problem of tying down exactly what the EU is, it take great glee in judging countries like the UK because they deport an EE they could not prove was not working (never mind belgium does it by the 10000's) or because we want to lock up loonies who have murdered dozens of people without a fixed term. But when something comes along that really really matters like this it is completely toothless. What use are human rights to people who are dying in this pandemic? The EU is trying to evolve to a single state whilst remaining  popular. In trying to do so it has taken the characteristics of a religion - if its  good god (the EU) did it,  it is bad (nationalism) or the devil did it.

I admit it is great to be in a bloc that maintains basic standards for food, beaches etc (under threat of being excluded from trading/tourism). but all the single currency and superstate stuff is in the realm of theologians.

[Huggy]

44 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

but all the single currency and superstate stuff is in the realm of theologians.

Indeed the tone (and occasionally the words) of some of the more eager Remainers was that of a fundamentalist Christian/Muslim/Whoever. They knew the other side was wrong because Remain had God Himself on their side, and therefore proof that the Devil that is Brexit was wrong.

Hence 5,100 pages.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Huggy

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

I admit it is great to be in a bloc that maintains basic standards for food, beaches etc (under threat of being excluded from trading/tourism). but all the single currency and superstate stuff is in the realm of theologians.

The EU budget is around 1% of GDP, so its the thinnest 'superstate' you could imagine.  A single currency is a perfectly pragmatic idea in principle.  That's why not one of the members of the Eurozone wants to leave it.

[debtlessmanc]

13 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

The EU budget is around 1% of GDP, so its the thinnest 'superstate' you could imagine.  A single currency is a perfectly pragmatic idea in principle.  That's why not one of the members of the Eurozone wants to leave it.

They do not want to leave it like a heroin addict does not want to come off Heroin, even though it is ruining their (economic) health.

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

My irritation with this stuff is the usual problem of tying down exactly what the EU is, it take great glee in judging countries like the UK because they deport an EE they could not prove was not working (never mind belgium does it by the 10000's) or because we want to lock up loonies who have murdered dozens of people without a fixed term. But when something comes along that really really matters like this it is completely toothless. What use are human rights to people who are dying in this pandemic? The EU is trying to evolve to a single state whilst remaining  popular. In trying to do so it has taken the characteristics of a religion - if its  good god (the EU) did it,  it is bad (nationalism) or the devil did it.

I admit it is great to be in a bloc that maintains basic standards for food, beaches etc (under threat of being excluded from trading/tourism). but all the single currency and superstate stuff is in the realm of theologians.

I am no fan of an EU super state and don't think it is a realistic prospect, in fact I think we are pretty much at the limit of what is possible and while there may be further co-operation/integration in some areas this will be offset by retreat in other areas. 

Re Belgium using the FoM rules to return EU immigrants/families who cannot support themselves this is how the system is meant to operate and just another UK government failure where blame was diverted to the EU.  

 

[debtlessmanc]

4 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

 

Re Belgium using the FoM rules to return EU immigrants/families who cannot support themselves this is how the system is meant to operate and just another UK government failure where blame was diverted to the EU.  

 

It was not a british failure, it is that, in civil liberty terms, we look unlike the other EU members, no ID cards and no central registry of residents (just censuses every 10 years, inadequate in the modern age) all this for 1000 years of history with no occupation.  I happen to think we should have introduced those things and use them as ruthlessly as the other states. But, come on, you know that was politically impossible, it would have been hailed as the beginning of a police state and their would have been massive civil disobediance (cf pole tax riots). One of the ironies of this debate is that (at least i find) that remainers are in some ways as ignorant of the ways of the EU states as they accuse the brexiteers of being. I have been told straight by Belgian people that "you should have ignored the rules we found inconvenient, thats what we do". The arch remainers i meet look on any attempt to look like other EU states in this regard as "English Nationalism at play" oh the irony.

[thecrashingisles]

59 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It was not a british failure, it is that, in civil liberty terms, we look unlike the other EU members, no ID cards and no central registry of residents (just censuses every 10 years, inadequate in the modern age) all this for 1000 years of history with no occupation.

No history of occupation on the British Isles?  What an absurdly blinkered view.

[Confusion of VIs]

31 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

It was not a british failure, it is that, in civil liberty terms, we look unlike the other EU members, no ID cards and no central registry of residents (just censuses every 10 years, inadequate in the modern age) all this for 1000 years of history with no occupation.  I happen to think we should have introduced those things and use them as ruthlessly as the other states. But, come on, you know that was politically impossible, it would have been hailed as the beginning of a police state and their would have been massive civil disobediance (cf pole tax riots). One of the ironies of this debate is that (at least i find) that remainers are in some ways as ignorant of the ways of the EU states as they accuse the brexiteers of being. I have been told straight by Belgian people that "you should have ignored the rules we found inconvenient, thats what we do". The arch remainers i meet look on any attempt to look like other EU states in this regard as "English Nationalism at play" oh the irony.

It wasn't a civil liberty issue it was lack of interest from a government who thought that the number of East European migrants would be in the low 10s of thousands each year. I was working in the HO at the time and the civil service recommended that we amend our benefits system to allow a qualifying time before EU immigrants would qualify and enforce the FoM rule requiring immigrants to be self supporting within 3 months but the government had other priorities. 

The truth is we have an id card system just without the cards, the reason the cost of passports suddenly jumped in the early 2000s was to pay for the id card infrastructure, which despite the cancellation of the Id card project was still implemented and used to provide the fingerprint/facial recognition now used for passports and visas. The immigration service has had mobile access to this data since 2005.  

 

        

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

It wasn't a civil liberty issue it was lack of interest from a government who thought that the number of East European migrants would be in the low 10s of thousands each year. I was working in the HO at the time and the civil service recommended that we amend our benefits system to allow a qualifying time before EU immigrants would qualify and enforce the FoM rule requiring immigrants to be self supporting within 3 months but the government had other priorities. 

The truth is we have an id card system just without the cards, the reason the cost of passports suddenly jumped in the early 2000s was to pay for the id card infrastructure, which despite the cancellation of the Id card project was still implemented and used to provide the fingerprint/facial recognition now used for passports and visas. The immigration service has had mobile access to this data since 2005.  

 

        

and a registry of residents? how are you supposed to provide health care education etc for a rapidly changing population without that? all the stories of peoples schools being swamped by EU migrants could have been stopped dead if the govt both cared and had the data

[Confusion of VIs]

14 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

and a registry of residents? how are you supposed to provide health care education etc for a rapidly changing population without that? all the stories of peoples schools being swamped by EU migrants could have been stopped dead if the govt both cared and had the data

If they cared they could have had the data. Another of their decisions at that time was to scrap the landing card system. I personally advised against this at ministerial level but again they had other priorities (at the time everything was secondary to trying to get a working asylum system).    

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said:

No history of occupation on the British Isles?  What an absurdly blinkered view.

okay 300 years...on the mainland.

[Dorkins]

22 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

In practical terms we haven't left yet.

To date we don't have a deal or even the basis for agreeing a deal with the EU

Does anyone think the 27 will be interested in devoting time and effort to negotiating a deal at the moment, so within the next three months we have to take the decision whether or not to leave with no deal?

Does anyone think the economy will be in a position to withstand a no deal exit at the end of the year?

If not what happens next?

 

By the end of June Johnson will ask to extend the transition period into next year, of course. 

[Confusion of VIs]

12 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

By the end of June Johnson will ask to extend the transition period into next year, of course. 

That seems pretty pointless, we and the EU will still be 100% focussed on dealing with the fallout of Covid19. Also the UK's finances will surely not withstand a no deal exit so our ability to negotiate a deal will be very limited. 

We will need to avoid unnecessary damage to the economy and a period of stability, a short extension won't give that.   

[Brendan110_0]

31 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

By the end of June Johnson will ask to extend the transition period into next year, of course. 

Johnson might just have landed on his feet like a cat with 9 lives. A pandemic will greatly change how things are done, Brexit consigned to a small side story as the world readjusts - will a citizens income work? What about collaboration to find a vaccine? Will current trading blocs be destroyed and a world bloc be formed?

[pig]

7 hours ago, dryrot said:

??? It's as if you dont have an argument at all.

Well, its not too difficult. Try reading again slowly, the key is to compare and contrast with your original post.

[pig]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

and a registry of residents? how are you supposed to provide health care education etc for a rapidly changing population without that? all the stories of peoples schools being swamped by EU migrants could have been stopped dead if the govt both cared and had the data

Perhaps the objective was kipper/brexiter votes so chucking a load of black britons out was seen as more effective than europeans.

[pig]

50 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

By the end of June Johnson will ask to extend the transition period into next year, of course. 

Allegedly (and if you read the article carefully it has to be allegedly), BJ has risked millions of lives on the advice of Cummings and his pet scientist against the broader scientific community

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach

Do you think he'd balk at something as relatively abstract as the transition period ?

I think it was Heseltine who said Johnson works out which way the crowd is running and then runs to the front and says follow me ! Which might explain all the decisions over the last few weeks lagging behind public awareness and hence no change unless Leavers suddenly wake up from being deeply comatosed in la-la land.