Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[IMHAL]

12 minutes ago, thehowler said:

I've given up on you, IMHAL. You're like sitting an exam and there are no right answers.

...the dog ate your homework?.......

I take it 'hope' was one of your meta abstract benefits...   perhaps it's just as well that the dog got to it first.

[thehowler]

Maybe, but please just ignore me - that's a request.

[IMHAL]

16 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Maybe, but please just ignore me - that's a request.

 

I will do as you request........ provided that I don't (strongly) disagree with anything you post. 

Edited May 6, 2018 by IMHAL

[thehowler]

But that means you'll comment on everything I say. (Strongly, or not.)

It's time you recognized that people who are hopeful on Brexit are not responsible for making you feel better about it.

And your concrete idea on another ref is just ridiculous, IMHO.

Edited May 6, 2018 by thehowler

[thehowler]

Does anyone, apart from Vince Cable (and I'm not even sure about him) think we're going to get a 2nd referendum?

[thehowler]

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Brexit...

[thehowler]

Speaking to BBC Newsnight last night, Mr Dijsselbloem said: 'The people in the UK have to understand that Brexit is no longer on the front pages in Europe. Its on the front pages in the UK every day, one two and three. We have moved on... there is no drive to re-open this debate. I haven't heard anyone in Brussels argue for a second referendum.'

Brits that want a second referendum: Tony Blair, Campbell, Adonis, Patrick Stewart...and Farage (though I think he's changed his mind now).

Even Anna Soubry doesn't want a second referendum!

 

[jonb2]

2 hours ago, thehowler said:

Civic duty?

Do lemmings have a civic duty howler?

[rollover]

6 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Speaking to BBC Newsnight last night, Mr Dijsselbloem said: 'The people in the UK have to understand that Brexit is no longer on the front pages in Europe. Its on the front pages in the UK every day, one two and three. We have moved on... there is no drive to re-open this debate. I haven't heard anyone in Brussels argue for a second referendum.'

Brits that want a second referendum: Tony Blair, Campbell, Adonis, Patrick Stewart...and Farage (though I think he's changed his mind now).

Even Anna Soubry doesn't want a second referendum!

 

Exactly, second referendum can not solve anything, will keep UK divided and let hard brexit protagonists off the hook.

[thehowler]

8 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Do lemmings have a civic duty howler?

That's fair. I suppose I can't appeal to any latent, Norman Wisdom "Bulldog Breed" side of your character?

[jonb2]

13 minutes ago, thehowler said:

Speaking to BBC Newsnight last night, Mr Dijsselbloem said: 'The people in the UK have to understand that Brexit is no longer on the front pages in Europe. Its on the front pages in the UK every day, one two and three. We have moved on... there is no drive to re-open this debate. I haven't heard anyone in Brussels argue for a second referendum.'

Brits that want a second referendum: Tony Blair, Campbell, Adonis, Patrick Stewart...and Farage (though I think he's changed his mind now).

Even Anna Soubry doesn't want a second referendum!

 

Agreed. There should be no second referendum. Hard Brexit is the only way.

Indeed we should just listen to Rees-Mogg's words. Ireland is no problem. People will have cheaper trainers. Just in time single market exchange is irrelevant, job losses at the Japanese car makers don't matter and the world is our oyster. No mention of how we achieve trade deals. From the man who lunches with Steve Bannon.

And then there's Legatum

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the-brexit-web-with-legatum-at-the-centre-1-5302732

Yup, our future is in excellent hands.

 

[jonb2]

2 minutes ago, thehowler said:

That's fair. I suppose I can't appeal to any latent, Norman Wisdom "Bulldog Breed" side of your character?

Nope. Brexit is not my thing. It's for others to feck up.

It's the most stupid idea - pure BS for the political expediency of the Tory party only.

[Sheeple Splinter]

On ‎04‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 23:29, Sheeple Splinter said:

?

Interesting; does your abuser persona only appear on this forum?

 

14 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

No, it appears when people are being dicks.  HTHBIDI

...

? Does that mean your bigot persona appears first?

You could always correct, concede, or challenge any of the points below...

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 01:00, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. You are making that up. This was your reply to my post:

2. Evidently, inconvenient truths trigger the emergence of your abuser persona.

3. Indeed, between two Brexit parties...

... rather than venting your frustration with ad hominems. 

[Sheeple Splinter]

13 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

A key part of this doc is para 62

The implication being that there must be a border deal with the EU, and as it is us who desire to leave any deal will have to be acceptable to the EU, which either means staying in a customs union (or making some other offer acceptable to the RoI, maybe a binding recommitment to the GFE and generous compensation payments for the impact of any trade barriers/border controls).  

? This para:

Quote

62.Several stakeholders told us that, in a no deal scenario, the UK would be in violation of WTO rules if it declined to enforce a border.152 We were told that MFN rules mean that if the UK chose not to enforce a border with the EU in Northern Ireland, it would have to not enforce a border with “the entirety of the WTO membership.”153 Similarly, if an EU member state such as Ireland did not impose tariffs on exports from the UK, it could be in breach of WTO obligations, as well as the rules of the EU customs union.154 Katy Hayward told us that achieving a deep and comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU was “absolutely critical” for the border.155

So, presumably, Barnier has a clearer understanding of what's achievable...

Quote

...

92....

However, when we took evidence from Michel Barnier he was much more optimistic stating in response to a question on whether a trade deal could be concluded before the end of the implementation period:

To attempt to reply specifically to your question, Mr Mills, my feeling is that from March on, we are going to discuss relations. We will have had this political declaration in October and then we will be able to move forward far more rapidly than we have been used to, together with your country. At the moment we are completely integrated commercially speaking, in terms of trade [ … ] I can say that within a short period of time we cannot do absolutely everything. We do have to set priorities, but we will be in a position to conclude at least the free trade agreement, if not more. I will work with that in mind, because we want to ensure good trade co-operation. That is a very important condition in the interests of your country as well as the European Union.218

...

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmniaf/329/32906.htm

... than your contacts in the Civil Service i.e. 5+ years?

[Sheeple Splinter]

13 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

1. It was the perception of ineffective sovereignty that in part caused the UK to vote Leave. Ask the average Leave voter to explain what aspects of our loss of sovereignty so upset them and you would get a list of issues almost all nothing to do with the EU.

2. Just an exampled of how unrealistic the Leavers dreams of having total sovereignty are. I expect us to have less effective sovereignty post Brexit, we are too small to make the weather anymore and too big to be ignored.    

3. If you had read the sorry story of the reasons for developing the  type 31 and the path the program has/is taking you wouldn't have bothered posting that link.

 

1.  You mean like Lord Ashcroft did?

2. You seem to misunderstand what sovereignty means.

3. ? You mean because it holed your narrative below the waterline...

[thecrashingisles]

1 minute ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

2. You seem to misunderstand what sovereignty means.

If you use the strict definition we have always been fully sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, so any case for leaving based on sovereignty has to be based on the meaning Confusion of VIs is using.

[HairyOb1]

6 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

 

? Does that mean your bigot persona appears first?

You could always correct, concede, or challenge any of the points below...

... rather than venting your frustration with ad hominems. 

No, sorry, I think you're confusing things: I think you're a dick.  

[HairyOb1]

18 hours ago, thehowler said:

The way the flag is appropriated by different groups is fascinating, agree, but I don't share your view that it reflects a rise in right wing nationalism across the UK. I know this is a common refrain from remainers - as is the sense of statelessness you mention - but the BNP just lost their last seat this week, UKIP have all but vanished and though you might find some Brexiteers distasteful, they're nothing compared to the mobs of dangerous NF thugs that I saw rampaging on the streets of my home city every weekend throughout much of the 70s and 80s. I do not exaggerate, I was attacked many times and my memories of that time are still vivid. Many people have forgotten (or didn't grow up with) the political movement against the NF, the Rock Against Racism tours, the riots, Blair Peach, the marches, ANL, etc it's a long list, but I have not forgotten these things. I also grew up with relatives who had fought in WWII and described it as a battle against right wing nationalism. They were lefties, on the whole, who were proud of the Union Jack as a symbol of how they had seen off the right wing threat to world peace.

I went to Brick Lane market a few weeks back and visited a few old haunts. In my 20s I went to the market every week and was always angered to see gangs of fascists handing out racist texts and chanting slogans, I joined demos against them. They're not there now - they would not be tolerated.

We got into use of the flag a few pages back - Tom Daley's derriere made an appearance - it doesn't have to be a symbol of evil. In my more positive moments I wonder if Brexit might grant us another Cool Britannia phase (maybe it comes in 25 year cycles?) and the divisions within the UK regions can somehow be healed through a shared pride in Brit culture and place in the world.

 

18 hours ago, thehowler said:

Natch...that's your desired outcome and like the rest of us you live in hope.

2 great posts, thanks.  I too grew up with racism and fought it.  I was a foreigner, to them, in a small town, where there was one black family who copped a lot of abuse, as I did.  We're still friends.  

I am currently working away, and raised the point of the flag based on what I see here.  It's considered good here, they're good, kind, hospitable people but there is a bit of a stain on the Union flag which I hope we can remove and make it a symbol of what the country is, not what some folk wish to make it.

[HairyOb1]

8 hours ago, thehowler said:

Does anyone, apart from Vince Cable (and I'm not even sure about him) think we're going to get a 2nd referendum?

Yup, either as a referendum or by proxy

[rollover]

7 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1.  You mean like Lord Ashcroft did?

2. You seem to misunderstand what sovereignty means.

3. ? You mean because it holed your narrative below the waterline...

[IMHAL]

10 hours ago, thehowler said:

But that means you'll comment on everything I say. (Strongly, or not.)

It's time you recognized that people who are hopeful on Brexit are not responsible for making you feel better about it.

And your concrete idea on another ref is just ridiculous, IMHO.

I don't have the need to 'feel better' about Brexit. A dose of realism and a plan is my medicine, hope seems to be yours, so long as that is the case we will not agree.

[HairyOb1]

11 hours ago, thehowler said:

Speaking to BBC Newsnight last night, Mr Dijsselbloem said: 'The people in the UK have to understand that Brexit is no longer on the front pages in Europe. Its on the front pages in the UK every day, one two and three. We have moved on... there is no drive to re-open this debate. I haven't heard anyone in Brussels argue for a second referendum.'

Brits that want a second referendum: Tony Blair, Campbell, Adonis, Patrick Stewart...and Farage (though I think he's changed his mind now).

Even Anna Soubry doesn't want a second referendum!

 

Soubry knows it's not politically expedient to support a second ref, but if it was on the cards, she would be behind it, make no mistake.

[thehowler]

1 hour ago, IMHAL said:

A dose of realism and a plan is my medicine

All the Brexit action is founded on hope, IMHAL, whether you recognize it or not. The ref vote itself was people making their best guess combined with their desired/hoped-for outcome, like all votes. I don't see how you can deny hope as a catalyst and progressive force in all modern political events  - as I've said before, what is a manifesto other than a declaration of hope based on best evidence/argument. I doubt if the Tories will set in place anything from their 2017 manifesto but they're still in government.

My best assessment of likely Brexit outcomes leads me to think the UK won't suffer the predicted calamities and might actually benefit from the break - as will the EU. But I admit that this view is also influenced by the need to address the referendum vote itself and protect the myth/idea of democracy in the UK.

And all the players are riddled and infected with hope too, it's the human condition. May's Custom Partnership is underpinned by her hoping she can squeeze it past the rebels and the EU will look the other way and give us special status, fearful that they'll get something worse if we break away. The other likely outcomes - capitulation on CU and snap election, Davis trying to caretake, May dragging things on until too late but to extend transition - are all driven by hopeful nutters, and it's one of those we'll be getting.

[HairyOb1]

16 minutes ago, thehowler said:

All the Brexit action is founded on hope, IMHAL, whether you recognize it or not. The ref vote itself was people making their best guess combined with their desired/hoped-for outcome, like all votes. I don't see how you can deny hope as a catalyst and progressive force in all modern political events  - as I've said before, what is a manifesto other than a declaration of hope based on best evidence/argument. I doubt if the Tories will set in place anything from their 2017 manifesto but they're still in government.

My best assessment of likely Brexit outcomes leads me to think the UK won't suffer the predicted calamities and might actually benefit from the break - as will the EU. But I admit that this view is also influenced by the need to address the referendum vote itself and protect the myth/idea of democracy in the UK.

And all the players are riddled and infected with hope too, it's the human condition. May's Custom Partnership is underpinned by her hoping she can squeeze it past the rebels and the EU will look the other way and give us special status, fearful that they'll get something worse if we break away. The other likely outcomes - capitulation on CU and snap election, Davis trying to caretake, May dragging things on until too late but to extend transition - are all driven by hopeful nutters, and it's one of those we'll be getting.

The issue is so many lies were told, that gave false hope,  which all of the people who propagated them denied the day after.  I get what you're saying, that hope has been a major factor in it, but I also hope it's rescinded, as do lots of people.  I am utterly against Brexit, as not one good thing has arrived because of it, not one item has come up since 2016 that has persuaded me to change my mind and accept it.  I have not heard, seen or read one item of news regarding Brexit, that has been positive.  Not one.  Every time I have asked a Brexiteer what good thing can come out of brexit, and it's almost to a person, wishy washy flim flam at best.  The only response to which I think I can acquiesce, is that they want the economy to tank.  But, despite asking for nearly 2 years now, not one solid, pertinent, factual point has been put across this forum which is in any way good for the UK.

[Confusion of VIs]

9 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1.  You mean like Lord Ashcroft did?

2. You seem to misunderstand what sovereignty means.

3. ? You mean because it holed your narrative below the waterline...

1. You missed the point.

2. No you misunderstood my point.

3. Not even sure what point you were trying to make. Hard to see how designing/ordering a cut price ship that is incapable of defending itself or anything else against modern threats (described as the pointless class) is relevant to anything.