Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[HairyOb1]

1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That’s fecking outrageous!!!

THere are worse ones out there!  In all fairness, this has been addressed and that copy is from 2013

[IMHAL]

5 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

Thanks for IP update...

... you have overlooked the fact that the EU failed to do this in its existing trade agreements with China.

And you still think we can do better.........    

We can't manage our way out of a paper bag at the moment...... you are a dreamer......

Plus it just reinforces my point... China is happy and willing to steal whatever they can....... and you want to legitimise it in a binding agreement...... you are so funny.

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That’s fecking outrageous!!!

Absolutely it is - and we have leavers wanting the UK to sign an FTA with China who insist on excluding IP rights ...... total dreamers and numpties........ couldn't find a more clueless lot.

[GrizzlyDave]

3 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Absolutely it is - and we have leavers wanting the UK to sign an FTA with China who insist on excluding IP rights ...... total dreamers and numpties........ couldn't find a more clueless lot.

That would be a mistake....

[HairyOb1]

5 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That would be a mistake....

Massive mistake: to trade with China, you have to hand over the IP to the chinese company you're working with, as you cannot work alone.  It's how they've got a march on the world really.  If you look back over the years, and look at Chinese car technology, it was very poor, then JLR, VW, Merc, BMW started working over there and now they have some of the best engines in the world coming out of there.  If you look to electrification of the automotive world, it will come on very quickly out of china...

[IMHAL]

5 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

I did originally ask that question and in between your first and last posts you have managed to mire yourself further in your hypocrisy whilst avoiding my responses and a few inconvenient truths.

Sigh. 

Your original answer was:

"2 - racism and xenophobia exist everywhere, the EU are not fond of it, have no deliberate policies to promote it and indeed want to rid us of it. So Yes, I would gladly put my name to that."

How does...

... rid us of it? ...

Hang on, I think you have already answered that, "...because the EU is trying to do the right thing despite the xenophobic tendencies of some nations..." 

... ooops!

Remind me what the legal repercussions are in the event of a racist hate crime in the UK?

Link please...

[GrizzlyDave]

20 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

Massive mistake: to trade with China, you have to hand over the IP to the chinese company you're working with, as you cannot work alone.  It's how they've got a march on the world really.  If you look back over the years, and look at Chinese car technology, it was very poor, then JLR, VW, Merc, BMW started working over there and now they have some of the best engines in the world coming out of there.  If you look to electrification of the automotive world, it will come on very quickly out of china...

The negative consequences of globalisation.

 

[IMHAL]

24 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

That would be a mistake....

Not just China... India insist on the same deal.... IP rights are excluded.....

In other words.... sanctioned theft of all the hard work and money we have poured into our R&D...... we would be giving away any trading advantages we have with the rest of the world ..... in a few short years China and India would be ripping off our offerings and sell them through out the world for a fraction of the cost that we can produce them. We would be giving away our family silver for the promise of a couple of percentile GDP increase in the very short term.... it is bonkers..... but sadly, widely repeated on here as a justification for leaving the customs union.... it plain daft and plain dangerous. 

[thehowler]

7 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

Based on that logic the most popular prime minister in British history was John Major.  Is that what you think? 

No. I was saying that turnout was high and people seemed keen to vote - I didn't understand what you meant by a forced choice and still don't.

[Confusion of VIs]

14 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Not just China... India insist on the same deal.... IP rights are excluded.....

In other words.... sanctioned theft of all the hard work and money we have poured into our R&D...... we would be giving away any trading advantages we have with the rest of the world ..... in a few short years China and India would be ripping off our offerings and sell them through out the world for a fraction of the cost that we can produce them. We would be giving away our family silver for the promise of a couple of percentile GDP increase in the very short term.... it is bonkers..... but sadly, widely repeated on here as a justification for leaving the customs union.... it plain daft and plain dangerous. 

It's pretty much a racing certainty that Fox will be so desperate to sign new trade deals post Brexit that he will accept whatever is on offer. 

We are about to throw away +40yrs of trade agreements negotiated from a position of great strength and replace them with a new batch of agreements hurriedly negotiated from a position of extreme weakness. 

Only a fantasist could see this ending well. 

 

 

[GrizzlyDave]

46 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

Not just China... India insist on the same deal.... IP rights are excluded.....

In other words.... sanctioned theft of all the hard work and money we have poured into our R&D...... we would be giving away any trading advantages we have with the rest of the world ..... in a few short years China and India would be ripping off our offerings and sell them through out the world for a fraction of the cost that we can produce them. We would be giving away our family silver for the promise of a couple of percentile GDP increase in the very short term.... it is bonkers..... but sadly, widely repeated on here as a justification for leaving the customs union.... it plain daft and plain dangerous. 

Short termism has been a cancer in government for years. No long term vision/plan.

Look at North Sea Oil and how it facilated massive tax cuts for the rich, where is our sovereign wealth fund? No long term planning, no forwards investment.

Boomers sold the nation’s gold reserves and ran up the national credit card. Then hospital passed a broken country to the next generation whilst they retired early to manage their BTL portfolios from Provence.

In principal, I don’t see why we can’t sign FTAs and protect our IP. But I grant you the Tories are incapable of delivering that.

Edited May 2, 2018 by GrizzlyDave

[thehowler]

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

It can be revoked, it's been to court and proven to be the case,

This is false. I've challenged you to produce evidence of this before and you never responded.

A judge at the Scottish court of sessions has allowed an appeal to be made to ask whether the question can be put to the ECJ. Nothing has been proven other than the determination of remainers to pursue every speculative legal avenue to stop Brexit. They have already tried this in Northern Ireland and their case was thrown out as hypothetical - courts rule on things that are happening, rather than what might happen. From news reports it seems the Scottish judge granting the appeal commented that the case was possibly hypothetical but he has still allowed it, citing that parliament must have all the available facts to be truly sovereign. Fascinating that the cry of the brexiteers for sovereignty, as ZeroSumGame points out above, is now so routinely employed in Brexit discussion and counterarguments. Hard to see how judges can rule on something that might happen without knowing the detailed context at the time, so I think it has little chance of success.

If I've missed another court ruling, please provide the info.

2 hours ago, HairyOb1 said:

You do realise that any GE isn't just England, yes? 

Labour and Tories would like more in Scotland, which, pro rata, have more MP's than anywhere else.

SNP and Sinn Fein are Pro EU.  So I don't understand your point there anyway.

You have predicted a GE for 2022, I believe, and said that it would be a Brexit decider/showdown? I think the crisis and collapse will happen long before then but, if you're correct, winning in England will be the overriding priority for both major parties. If, as seems likely in this projected scenario, the Tories run on pro-Brexit and Labour go with Customs Union/no-Brexit, I think the greater leave vote percentage for England will be significant. Labour could well lose the North and we'd see the shift, under Corbyn, from the great Labour manufacturing base to a London-centric party.

 

 

[IMHAL]

23 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Short termism has been a cancer in government for years. No long term vision/plan.

Look at North Sea Oil and how it facilated massive tax cuts for the rich, where is our sovereign wealth fund? No long term planning, no forwards investment.

Boomers sold the nation’s gold reserves and ran up the national credit card. Then hospital passed a broken country to the next generation whilst they retired early to manage their BTL portfolios from the Costa del Sol.

In principal, I don’t see why we can’t sign FTAs and protect our IP. But I grant you the Tories are incapable of delivering that.

....because India and China won't do it for the EU without the exclusion of the IP clauses.... the EU being in a position of strength.... we will be in a weak and desperate position....... is that a good enough reason to think it highly improbable?

I appreciate your point about our short term'ism... but you cannot put that into the same bag as legitimising the theft of our IP.

Lets also look at a FTA with the USA..... what possible strings might be attached to that I wonder..... the NHS  does look ripe for wholesale privatisation..... They do say there's no such thing as a free lunch.... we are about to find that out the hard way.

Edited May 2, 2018 by IMHAL

[GrizzlyDave]

3 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

....because India and China won't do it without the exclusion of the IP clauses... is that a good enough reason? So we don’t sign them then.

I appreciate your point about our short term'ism... but you cannot put that into the same bag as legitimising the theft of our IP. I’m not.

Lets also look at a FTA with the USA..... what possible strings might be attached to that I wonder..... the NHS and our road/transport system does look ripe for privatisation..... They do say there's no such thing as a free lunch.... we are about to find that out the hard way. Maybe the NHS needs to be privatised. Something is broken - if you can fix it - without privatisation - go for it.

 

[IMHAL]

2 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

 

So we don't sign an FTA with China and India - great...... let the Leavers withdraw from parading that as our 'great saviours'..... because they clearly are not.

If you think the NHS is broken here..... you need to see what is happening in the good old US of A with regard to health care. The options are, hope you don't get ill, pay through the nose for insurance, sell your house, accept that you will go untreated. 

I know you are almost past caring.... but surely these things are important.

[jonb2]

13 hours ago, SpectrumFX said:

Yeah, but it turns out that the figure on the bus was actually too low, as I pointed out a couple of hundred pages back.

?

, 

Another who believes anything the Tories say.

[jonb2]

13 hours ago, thehowler said:

Nope, I said that I thought they had reasons of their own for voting leave, and then I listed a few. To demonise the bus effectively you have to portray it as widely believed by the electorate, even though the truth is it was just part of the semiotic theatre of events and was cartoonish from the off, widely mocked as soon as it appeared. Much like May and her catchphrase strong and stable in the last GE, it was pilloried immediately. Sadly much of the base remain argument insists that most Brits are dullards, in itself a stupid and self-defeating rhetorical position. As for your all you need is...

you could say the same about any political event, Brexit is no different. Politics is a really bad magic show, when you can see the cards poking out from the conjuror's cuff. When's the last time we had a GE and the winning party delivered on their manifesto? And what percentage of the populace read a manifesto? It's ludicrous to describe the public as informed in any of the democratic process, hence me saying it's all a leap of faith many hundreds of posts ago.

Brexit is that much rarer thing - the people really getting to choose to make things different - and that's what makes it so terrifying.

How's it going to be different? More of the same but worse IMO.

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

It's pretty much a racing certainty that Fox will be so desperate to sign new trade deals post Brexit that he will accept whatever is on offer. 

We are about to throw away +40yrs of trade agreements negotiated from a position of great strength and replace them with a new batch of agreements hurriedly negotiated from a position of extreme weakness. 

Only a fantasist could see this ending well. 

 

 

 Absolutely...... as businesses start to suffer... and the pressure starts to build on our government to 'strike trade deals'..... we will just accept whatever is on offer...... 

but, but. but...... I am sure that those that voted for Brexit knew that they where voting for all our IP to be stolen.... and they are happy for that to happen...... you have to laugh.

Edited May 2, 2018 by IMHAL

[Confusion of VIs]

32 minutes ago, thehowler said:

This is false. I've challenged you to produce evidence of this before and you never responded.

A judge at the Scottish court of sessions has allowed an appeal to be made to ask whether the question can be put to the ECJ. Nothing has been proven other than the determination of remainers to pursue every speculative legal avenue to stop Brexit. They have already tried this in Northern Ireland and their case was thrown out as hypothetical - courts rule on things that are happening, rather than what might happen. From news reports it seems the Scottish judge granting the appeal commented that the case was possibly hypothetical but he has still allowed it, citing that parliament must have all the available facts to be truly sovereign. Fascinating that the cry of the brexiteers for sovereignty, as ZeroSumGame points out above, is now so routinely employed in Brexit discussion and counterarguments. Hard to see how judges can rule on something that might happen without knowing the detailed context at the time, so I think it has little chance of success.

If I've missed another court ruling, please provide the info.

You have predicted a GE for 2022, I believe, and said that it would be a Brexit decider/showdown? I think the crisis and collapse will happen long before then but, if you're correct, winning in England will be the overriding priority for both major parties. If, as seems likely in this projected scenario, the Tories run on pro-Brexit and Labour go with Customs Union/no-Brexit, I think the greater leave vote percentage for England will be significant. Labour could well lose the North and we'd see the shift, under Corbyn, from the great Labour manufacturing base to a London-centric party.

 

 

Lord Kerr, who led the drafting of A50, thinks it is revocable.

However, the reality is the EU is political project and if the EU still wants the EU to remain in the union it will accept a revocation without troubling the courts. 

As for the the GE becoming a referendum on Brexit, I doubt this. Neither the Tories or Labour could agree a clear position without provoking huge splits within their parties. The reality is if the public turns decisively against Brexit there will be a second referendum, if it doesn't there won't. 

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Brexiteers threaten to bring down the Government over any customs union deal

Pro-Leave Tory MPs say that any compromise could lead to them voting against the Government. SKY

 

What will fall apart first: the Government, the Brexit idea or it will be synchronized dive?

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

So we don't sign an FTA with China and India - great...... let the Leavers withdraw from parading that as our 'great saviours'..... because they clearly are not.

If you think the NHS is broken here..... you need to see what is happening in the good old US of A with regard to health care. The options are, hope you don't get ill, pay through the nose for insurance, sell your house, accept that you will go untreated. 

I know you are almost past caring.... but surely these things are important.

To be clear - I want to stay in the CU; to make brexit easier to realise.

The American health system is a shocker. Give me an example of a really efficient and effective health care system.

Personally, I have private health care.

[rollover]

9 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

To be clear - I want to stay in the CU; to make brexit easier to realise.

The American health system is a shocker. Give me an example of a really efficient and effective health care system.

Personally, I have private health care.

This is not an option for Tory hard Brexiters. And they are in driving seat now.

[GrizzlyDave]

4 minutes ago, rollover said:

This is not an option for Tory hard Brexiters. And they are in driving seat now.

Thats why I voted labour.

[HairyOb1]

1 hour ago, thehowler said:

This is false. I've challenged you to produce evidence of this before and you never responded.

It isn't, and I've asked you to look on Twitter for a QC who challenged it.

You have predicted a GE for 2022, I believe, and said that it would be a Brexit decider/showdown? I think the crisis and collapse will happen long before then but, if you're correct, winning in England will be the overriding priority for both major parties. If, as seems likely in this projected scenario, the Tories run on pro-Brexit and Labour go with Customs Union/no-Brexit, I think the greater leave vote percentage for England will be significant. Labour could well lose the North and we'd see the shift, under Corbyn, from the great Labour manufacturing base to a London-centric party

What crisis and collapse? The EU?  I think you're dreaming.

The UK will be the overriding factor for all parties, as I said, Scotland produces more MPs pro rata than any other country in the Union.

By 2022, the appetite for Brexit will be diminished, especially if the industries up North continue shipping work out, as the Japanese surely will if there's any barriers to trade, as they've said many times.  Labour will not lose the North, unless, for some reason, you actually think the Tories will become the dominant party up there.  If you think that, well I suggest you go up there and ask around, for whilst there are pockets of Conservatives up there, they're a very small group.

Anyway, we're both hypothesising, or dreaming in the case of the crisis and collapse you're talking about

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said:

To be clear - I want to stay in the CU; to make brexit easier to realise.

The American health system is a shocker. Give me an example of a really efficient and effective health care system.

Personally, I have private health care.

1st point taken.

I agree with your last statement 100%. Edit.. i thought you said hate....not have.

I believe that whatever level of health care system you have.... demand will always outstrip supply for the very reason that the consequence of an efficient health care system is that it creates lots of old people ..... and old people place very high demands on any system.

Edited May 2, 2018 by IMHAL