Electric Cars

[The Eagle]

Good review of the brand new Hyundai Ioniq:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3yu37Bqk3s

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Renault Zoes' seem cheap 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2015-15-Renault-Zoe-E-88bhp-Auto-2013MY-Dynamique-Intens/322352193693

£5-6K for a 1 yr old car

Obviously batt lease cost  is an issue

 

they all have battery leases unless you spend £4-5k upfront to buy it, or get a good deal like a friends £9.5 k Nissan Leaf . (14k miles) for a 2014 used leaf  with batt lease  inc.from nissan

 

what folks forget is the lack of moving parts, wear on short journeys  , hence my quote.

 

 www.myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/battery-lease-cost-doesnt-make-sense/ 

 

Quote

There are so many things you haven’t got to go wrong or worry about: No oil pump or oil leaks, no crank shaft bearings, big or small ends, no cambelt, no valves, in fact practically anything that moves, rubs or wears associated with an internal combustion engine is basically removed.

This for me is a god send, I’m handy with bag of spanners and have spent most of my adult life fixing and repairing all of the above on mine and the wifes cars. No more! There is also the warm, smug, self righteous feeling you get wafting along in silence.

 

New range is amazing for price! old teslas were 250 miles 

 

 I imagine as the new zoe £17K+ 250 (prob 180 -200 range realworld) range must lower price of old ones.   

 

 Updated Renault Zoe on sale now, with 250-mile range 

 

www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/zoe/97213/updated-renault-zoe-on-sale-now-with-250-mile-range 

 

 i've been keeping an eye on nissan e-nv200 vans, some should be coming off lease soon . 

 

Sadly the range has not got bigger like leafs

 

good thread on bigger batts etc 

 

https://speakev.com/threads/when-will-a-bigger-battery-env-200-be-available.13836/  

 

if £300 a month (inc vat for biz lease inc batt lease ( 3 yr / 10k / £1500 down )  

 

say batt lease is £100  a month, then the £200 a month to lease van for 3 yrs with no batt / parts worries seems good £50 a week   

 

offers.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/car-deals/business/vans/e-nv200-van/offer-3.html

[davidg]

1 hour ago, Saving For a Space Ship said:

 

 Updated Renault Zoe on sale now, with 250-mile range 

 

a mate with the 200km Zoe says he can't drive from Grenoble to Lyon without a bit of a recharge at Isle d'Abbeau, that's about 120km. He says you can get the 200k in the summer at town speeds but the motor is not good for motorway speeds. I wonder if they have fixed this for the 400km (250 mile) Zoe? My eBike has 7 gears to improve range.

[Riedquat]

16 minutes ago, davidg said:

a mate with the 200km Zoe says he can't drive from Grenoble to Lyon without a bit of a recharge at Isle d'Abbeau, that's about 120km. He says you can get the 200k in the summer at town speeds but the motor is not good for motorway speeds. I wonder if they have fixed this for the 400km (250 mile) Zoe? My eBike has 7 gears to improve range.

I'm guessing that there isn't a sweet spot speed for electric cars (there's no reason for them to be inefficient at slow speeds the same way petrols are), so it'll be down to whatever speed the manufacturers quote at, usually ideal conditions, unsurprisingly, if not on a rolling road. Your bike has gears to help you out, not the electric motor. It'll get better range with them due to the gears making your contribution more efficient.

[Snafu]

There are a lot of plug in hybrids on the market now. 

Golf

Passat

Mercedes something 

volvo v60

Kia optima sw soon 

Hyundai ioniq

Kia Soul?

BMW

 

[whitevanman]

A friend of mine has got a Mercedes c350e plug in hybrid. It really is a lovely car: smooth, comfortable and powerful. It has saved him an absolute fortune as a company car. He's driven almost half the total mileage on pure electric, it does up to about 20miles in ideal conditions. On longer journeys he gets around 50mpg which is excellent for such a car. I'm not sure if it's worth it as a private car (would have to crunch the numbers) but it's great as a company car.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Wheeler Dealers S13E16 1985 Maserati Bi Turbo - EV ! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOz15z9NKtk

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Together in electric dreams? Not yet

Motoring journalist Quentin Willson calls for cheaper and simpler prices to encourage the use of electric cars.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/38719047

[ChewingGrass]

Just read an article on an electric Mercedes G-Wagon and Teslas Model X both come with monster up to 450kW ish motors and currently charge at 150kW an hour with plans for new 'ultra fast' 350kW chargers being rolled out by Audi/BMW.

Herein lies a BIG problem the current max UK generating capacity for everything is 52GW, thats 52,000MW and virtually all of that is used by the day to day running of the UK.

There is currently no spare capacity to cope with the potential surge of EVs, especially high end monster power vehicles and their requesite charging facilities to service exec/performance EVs that will undoubtedly be de-riguer for those who currently crave high end motors especially as company cars.

Jumping up and down about diesels with too much negative publicity and taxation may actually end up crippling the UKs grid with huge, unpredictable demands as those with money switch to performance EVs.

At 150kW max 50GW gen capacity = 333,333 cars, at 350kW = 143,000 cars although this is not actually the case as we need 50GW just to function as a country on most weekdays in winter.

https://electrek.co/2016/10/18/new-ultra-fast-charging-350-kw-stations-evs-europe-audi-bmw/

[dgul]

6 minutes ago, ChewingGrass said:

Just read an article on an electric Mercedes G-Wagon and Teslas Model X both come with monster up to 450kW ish motors and currently charge at 150kW an hour with plans for new 'ultra fast' 350kW chargers being rolled out by Audi/BMW.

Herein lies a BIG problem the current max UK generating capacity for everything is 52GW, thats 52,000MW and virtually all of that is used by the day to day running of the UK.

There is currently no spare capacity to cope with the potential surge of EVs, especially high end monster power vehicles and their requesite charging facilities to service exec/performance EVs that will undoubtedly be de-riguer for those who currently crave high end motors especially as company cars.

Jumping up and down about diesels with too much negative publicity and taxation may actually end up crippling the UKs grid with huge, unpredictable demands as those with money switch to performance EVs.

At 150kW max 50GW gen capacity = 333,333 cars, at 350kW = 143,000 cars although this is not actually the case as we need 50GW just to function as a country on most weekdays in winter.

https://electrek.co/2016/10/18/new-ultra-fast-charging-350-kw-stations-evs-europe-audi-bmw/

Your calcs are for how many cars could charge at any point in time.  And with 150KW of input power, they wouldn't need to be charging for long (which is the point of such massive charge rates).

Even for the power hungry cars, the 350KW supercharging wouldn't be a daily occurrence, and certainly wouldn't be available for home charging -- As it stands the power delivery to most normal houses tops out at about 24KW and for a normal small business unit about 75KW (happy for electrician to correct me on this)

I know your point is that the fancy cars are power monsters, but for normal cars for normal people for most requirements most of the time the numbers would be 7KW charging, for a 25KWh battery, probably only topping up daily. 

The 'electric car charging overloading the grid' is a problem for the future, and I'm not even sure about that (eg, if cars mostly charge during the night quite a bit of the required capacity would be met by simply not decreasing current generation during the currently-low-demand night time).

[Saving For a Space Ship]

On 27/06/2014 at 11:56 AM, onlylooking said:

Stick a bike in the boot to do the last couple of miles?

Nice idea.

 

The new GM bolt has great range of around 2oo +  though not availabel in Uk yet, if ever 

 

a youtuber , got 300 miles from a charge (prob a bit of hypermiling ) 

 

[onlyme2]

10 hours ago, ChewingGrass said:

Just read an article on an electric Mercedes G-Wagon and Teslas Model X both come with monster up to 450kW ish motors and currently charge at 150kW an hour with plans for new 'ultra fast' 350kW chargers being rolled out by Audi/BMW.

Herein lies a BIG problem the current max UK generating capacity for everything is 52GW, thats 52,000MW and virtually all of that is used by the day to day running of the UK.

There is currently no spare capacity to cope with the potential surge of EVs, especially high end monster power vehicles and their requesite charging facilities to service exec/performance EVs that will undoubtedly be de-riguer for those who currently crave high end motors especially as company cars.

Jumping up and down about diesels with too much negative publicity and taxation may actually end up crippling the UKs grid with huge, unpredictable demands as those with money switch to performance EVs.

At 150kW max 50GW gen capacity = 333,333 cars, at 350kW = 143,000 cars although this is not actually the case as we need 50GW just to function as a country on most weekdays in winter.

https://electrek.co/2016/10/18/new-ultra-fast-charging-350-kw-stations-evs-europe-audi-bmw/

Excellent point, those numbers in that scenario look horrible and unattainable with current grid. However to get an idea of the challenge to the grid maybe better not to look at the outliers (frankly way overpowered electric vehicles for mass adoption) and look at the mainstream case and also look through the shorter term issues and see what may be a reasonable target say 20 years out and the demand that would bear on the grid. the interim will have sketchy rollout of charging infrastructure and be all over the place but over the long term the chances of having appropriate infrastructure would be more possible.

For example what would be the power demand be for say 10 million 40KW cars.  

Current average mileage per day per car  in the UK is around 20miles. (Based on actual 7,000 average mileage per year)

A 40KW car should have range of about 200miles.

Assume 40kw charge rate, full charge in 1 hour.

So average car is charging state for 1 hour in every 240hours.

Giving electric demand of  (10,000,000 / 240) * 40KW . Which if my calcs are right is 1.6GW.

in practice most cars would be charging over night. In the context above demand would not be grid crushing. However driving miles are not evenly distributed and a significant proportion will be doing daytime miles and making larger peak demands during the day. That will need significant roadside charging capacity probably with its own battery storage infrastructure (for peak grid demand reduction). Then there is the additional generation required - many GW of additional supply. In 2016 global installed solar increased 48% to 76GW, so if there is the will solar could be rolled out at a pretty rapid rate. 

 

 

 

 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

 China Is Replacing 70,000 Taxis With Electric Cars

https://futurism.com/china-is-replacing-70000-taxis-with-electric-cars/

[The Knimbies who say No]

On 3 March 2017 at 9:43 PM, Saving For a Space Ship said:

 China Is Replacing 70,000 Taxis With Electric Cars

https://futurism.com/china-is-replacing-70000-taxis-with-electric-cars/

Rolling off UK production lines later this year, the all electric black cab TX5:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-39343519

Guess this will be a good test of battery tech. 

[dgul]

1 hour ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

Rolling off UK production lines later this year, the all electric black cab TX5:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-39343519

Guess this will be a good test of battery tech. 

The London taxi is probably the best-case for battery tech, and I'm surprised it wasn't done sooner -- sure, they might do 50,000-100,000 miles a year, but this is only 150-300 or so miles a day -- well within current battery capability. Then there are average speeds, which are low for most of the time (electric cars love low speeds), there's lots of stop-start traffic, and they're actually stopped for a fair proportion of the time.  Add to this the maintenance schedule for Taxis (they're always in for servicing, given the miles), and it looks to me like a no-brainer.

[The Knimbies who say No]

14 minutes ago, dgul said:

The London taxi is probably the best-case for battery tech, and I'm surprised it wasn't done sooner -- sure, they might do 50,000-100,000 miles a year, but this is only 150-300 or so miles a day -- well within current battery capability. Then there are average speeds, which are low for most of the time (electric cars love low speeds), there's lots of stop-start traffic, and they're actually stopped for a fair proportion of the time.  Add to this the maintenance schedule for Taxis (they're always in for servicing, given the miles), and it looks to me like a no-brainer.

Well, we'll see, won't we. I really hope they are a success. I guess the outcome may be dependent on convenient fast charging points while waiting. Dunno how practical it would be to charge in the queue at a railway station, say. 

 

Hmm, the article above failed to say that they are a petrol hybrid! 70 mile all electric range apparently.

[onlyme2]

9 minutes ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

Well, we'll see, won't we. I really hope they are a success. I guess the outcome may be dependent on convenient fast charging points while waiting. Dunno how practical it would be to charge in the queue at a railway station, say. 

 

Hmm, the article above failed to say that they are a petrol hybrid! 70 mile all electric range apparently.

Put a few chargers at the back end of the queue - should work fine - if you have run short of charge during the day you've probably had a pretty good day income wise so a few 10's minutes on a fast charger for top up not much of an issue, also there's quite a bit of fluctuation in demand and quiet spots during main working hours, so ample time top up. One of the problems with a fully distributed charging system is the cost of putting many multiple charging points out in the wild - a few concentrated taxi rank based charging points would be pretty efficient in terms of install costs / potential income.

 

[The Knimbies who say No]

4 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Put a few chargers at the back end of the queue - should work fine - if you have run short of charge during the day you've probably had a pretty good day income wise so a few 10's minutes on a fast charger for top up not much of an issue, also there's quite a bit of fluctuation in demand and quiet spots during main working hours, so ample time top up. One of the problems with a fully distributed charging system is the cost of putting many multiple charging points out in the wild - a few concentrated taxi rank based charging points would be pretty efficient in terms of install costs / potential income.

 

Guess a bit of a reorganisation of the taxi queuing system could prove beneficial, can't be beyond the wit of man to say, have a ticketing or valet parking type thing where a cab gets called forward when next in the quest, rather than creeping forward in a line which might limit the charging time if moving every couple of minutes. Might aid the poor air quality too.

[Hail the Tripod]

32 minutes ago, dgul said:

The London taxi is probably the best-case for battery tech, and I'm surprised it wasn't done sooner -- sure, they might do 50,000-100,000 miles a year, but this is only 150-300 or so miles a day -- well within current battery capability. Then there are average speeds, which are low for most of the time (electric cars love low speeds), there's lots of stop-start traffic, and they're actually stopped for a fair proportion of the time.  Add to this the maintenance schedule for Taxis (they're always in for servicing, given the miles), and it looks to me like a no-brainer.

You might be surprised how much the range drops in the winter, simply through having to use the heating. 

[onlyme2]

6 minutes ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

Guess a bit of a reorganisation of the taxi queuing system could prove beneficial, can't be beyond the wit of man to say, have a ticketing or valet parking type thing where a cab gets called forward when next in the quest, rather than creeping forward in a line which might limit the charging time if moving every couple of minutes. Might aid the poor air quality too.

Would very much depend on layout, but see no real issues in many locations.

This is feeder park for City Airport - any places where there are multiple lanes just allocate the outer lane or two as a static charging area. You would not necessary wan tot put charing infrastructure into every rank, only in the most useful ones. You could also set up separate charging areas outside of the taxi rank itself but nearby. I presume the taxi manufacturers will have the common sense to put in the best/latest fast charging tech - one reason why they may have held back a bit as anything other than fast charging capability does not make sense for a taxi.

 

[onlyme2]

3 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

You might be surprised how much the range drops in the winter, simply through having to use the heating. 

On the plus side worst case is personal usage - heat up car, travel 10 miles. Leaf has morning heat up whilst hooked up - programmable from phone I believe, on a timer so toasty before you get into the car and delisted asa ready to go. So once warmed up heat requirements not so bad and maybe divert heat from any cooling required for batteries (if they get warm enough during normal usage) through heat exchanger.

[onlyme2]

The new Leaf is due out in 2018, Nissan is extending lease until then for purchasers in the market for a replacement and they fear sales going to the Bolt in the interim. Not sure if UK as as well but if so means there will be a mini flood of returned cars around that time coming off lease - might be a good purchase point for a secondhand leaf. Not sure whether 2018 model is being a 60KW option - would be a 300mile plus car, but to compete with the Bolt the new leaf will need 200+ range.

 

[The Knimbies who say No]

24 minutes ago, onlyme2 said:

Would very much depend on layout, but see no real issues in many locations.

This is feeder park for City Airport - any places where there are multiple lanes just allocate the outer lane or two as a static charging area. You would not necessary wan tot put charing infrastructure into every rank, only in the most useful ones. You could also set up separate charging areas outside of the taxi rank itself but nearby. I presume the taxi manufacturers will have the common sense to put in the best/latest fast charging tech - one reason why they may have held back a bit as anything other than fast charging capability does not make sense for a taxi.

 

 

Interesting, thanks.

Guess airports are one thing but city centres another. Attacking the poor city centre air quality may require a bit more thought. 70 mile all electric looks insufficient really, hopefully the spec will get upgraded as required.

[dgul]

45 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

You might be surprised how much the range drops in the winter, simply through having to use the heating. 

they could put a paraffin heater in the boot! 

[onlyme2]

19 minutes ago, The Knimbies who say No said:

 

Interesting, thanks.

Guess airports are one thing but city centres another. Attacking the poor city centre air quality may require a bit more thought. 70 mile all electric looks insufficient really, hopefully the spec will get upgraded as required.

Oh they've gone hybrid, oh well, a start, and that's the charging issues out of the way - they'll end up doing a lot on fuel then. 70miles all electric may mean 40-50 real electric miles in practical use. Looking more like a vehicle to get round emissions zones which give hybrids a free pass.