justthisbloke Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The linked article says: That 10% will drop very rapidly to 1% whereupon they will be representing 5%. The oldest cars that I regularly see on the roads these days are S reg on which is about 99 and those are getting fewer and fewer, give it five years and they are effectively gone anyway. This sort of action is like the scrappage scheme - it will cause pollution and environmental damage by causing perfectly good cars to be scrapped and new ones to built. Really caring about the environment isn't it? It's caring for the local and immediate environment in which people live: cleaner air in the cities. If the old cars end up swapped for new ones, I suppose there's some energy and resource use which has a remote (geographically and in time) environmental cost. Or maybe they get cascaded to the countryside where their pollution doesn't impact on so many people and there's no replacement environmental cost. Trouble is, if you're concerned for both the local and the macro environment then there's no place for any type of car; old, new, diesel, or electric. Paris seem to be pursuing the middle ground - easy and relatively painless changes making the local environment better. But, you're right, if the populace really cared about the total environment, they'd simply ban cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Paris seem to be pursuing the middle ground - easy and relatively painless changes making the local environment better. But, you're right, if the populace really cared about the total environment, they'd simply ban cars. No need to go all one extreme or the other though, so I don't think that doing anything else therefore counts as "middle ground." Are there enough old vehicles in Paris that banning them will actually make a noticable difference to the local environment, or is it just gesture politics that look good, don't affect enough people to cause much resentment, but don't actually do anything practical (and aren't really intended to)? The only people who claim to care for the total and would ban anything that negatively affects it are the loony green fringe with the environment and the money-obsessed with the economy (alas the world is run by the latter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 No need to go all one extreme or the other though, so I don't think that doing anything else therefore counts as "middle ground." Are there enough old vehicles in Paris that banning them will actually make a noticable difference to the local environment, or is it just gesture politics that look good, don't affect enough people to cause much resentment, but don't actually do anything practical (and aren't really intended to)? The only people who claim to care for the total and would ban anything that negatively affects it are the loony green fringe with the environment and the money-obsessed with the economy (alas the world is run by the latter). The article seems to say that the old cars are responsible for 50% of pollution so, if the stats are right, it will make a "noticeable difference". Incidentally, the world isn't run by the loony green fringe - depleted resources and mega pollution are evidence of that. Not that I think government (green or otherwise) and bans are really the way forward. A simple principle of polluters paying for the damage they do is all that's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Incidentally, the world isn't run by the loony green fringe - depleted resources and mega pollution are evidence of that. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I think they are, I was just using them as an example of people who concentrate on one thing to the exclusion of all others, the economics-obssessed being another, with the latter being the ones calling the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I don't know what sort of post apocalytic b-feature hell hole you all live in, but I hardly ever see a vehicle over 15 years old. So the number of ancient vehicles must be miniscule, although I do know somebody with a 1928 Rolls. It must be him then. I guess in 15 years, the electric vehicles will be making it to the scrappie too. I have a "wow" moment if I see a Ford Sierra stll running. SInce the mid 80s, fuel injection has made the petrol engine much cleaner. Pretty much any vehicle made in the last 20 years is subject to emissions tests at MOT. The French have been into diesels for much longer, so I guess they have some older ones. Also their MOT is not as strict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Paris just banned all cars built before 1997 to fight air pollution http://inhabitat.com/paris-bids-adieu-to-all-pre-1997-cars-to-reduce-pollution/ … pic.twitter.com/ayas8NhLAW While older vehicles represent approximately 10% of the city’s vehicle stock, they account for nearly half of all emissions in Paris I find that difficult to believe. That would make older vehicles ten times more polluting than newer vehicles. They will be worse, but not that bad. It looks like they've just compared the old NOx/HC emissions standards with the current ones, and said therefore older cars are 10x worse. This would be a stupid approach as a) older NOx standards were fairly easy to pass, so many cars will be substantially below the standard, while B ) modern emissions standards are very demanding, and cars are usually significantly above the limits (eg, any diesel VW). I'd suggest that the problem with emissions in Paris is that there are too many cars. (But I would agree with banning older diesels. These are particularly bad. And newer diesels, those are bad too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/96286/electric-car-owners-hit-by-5-motorway-charging-charge £ for a 20 minute charge. I think this breaks the electric car ownership model for many people. I was expecting charging but this is captive-market extortion. Hopefully the gov will come in with 'fair' pricing rules... Whatever that might mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think remote charging is a very small % of most people's charging so it's not a deal breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Tesla model X is apparently doing test drives at Daresbury lab open day, this Saturday 9th for anyone in area. Free to get into site. http://www.stfc.ac.uk/public-engagement/see-the-science/daresbury-open-week/ If you think it's dull the village nearby are having a steam fair. That'll learn you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafu Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/96286/electric-car-owners-hit-by-5-motorway-charging-charge £ for a 20 minute charge. I think this breaks the electric car ownership model for many people. I was expecting charging but this is captive-market extortion. Hopefully the gov will come in with 'fair' pricing rules... Whatever that might mean. Not sure. I would never use our electric car to travel long distance relying onbl charging stations. But maybe others would.But 5 quid is steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChumpusRex Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 But 5 quid is steep. Not really. Given the cost of the infrastructure, energy and maintenance, I'm surprised they've got it that low (unless there is some sort of ongoing subsidy scheme). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafu Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Not really. Given the cost of the infrastructure, energy and maintenance, I'm surprised they've got it that low (unless there is some sort of ongoing subsidy scheme). I get why they need to charge that. But punters will think it steep. We just got rid of our diesel car and now only have one electric car. We are going to see how long we can get away with it. I bike to work on my electric bike. Might be tricky after our second sprog in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justthisbloke Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 @Snafu - how often do you use the Ecotricity chargers? From EV drivers I've spoken to, public charging constitutes a very small percentage of their charging. Not many people regularly use an EV for long distance driving with mid-point charging. A fiver occasionally, to extend the utility of an EV, seems reasonable. Public charge points to EV drivers are not the same as petrol pumps to ICE drivers. PS. What is it you've got? I've lost track. How are you finding it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Not sure if this has been posted before - first time I have looked at any Tesla stuff. Journey on the M4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafu Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 @Snafu - how often do you use the Ecotricity chargers? From EV drivers I've spoken to, public charging constitutes a very small percentage of their charging. Not many people regularly use an EV for long distance driving with mid-point charging. A fiver occasionally, to extend the utility of an EV, seems reasonable. Public charge points to EV drivers are not the same as petrol pumps to ICE drivers. PS. What is it you've got? I've lost track. How are you finding it? We have a renault Zoe. It was my goto car despite it being my wife's. We never used it on motorway charging. Love an electric car. Does good on motorways and lovely to drive everywhere. I'm.signed up to charge your car and not ecotricity. 20 quid a year to charge my car in most places in Newcastle. The best chargers for quickness re for the Nissan Leafs though (the 30 minute ones). The standard car charging cable based on the EU standard is one that the Zoe has. Mennekes 2. Leaf is different. Mitsubishi phev has the same as the Leaf too. The new leaf has a 30kwh battey that is quite tempting. Considering maybe gettung one of those and buy it outright with owned battery as opposed to leasing on the Zoe. Edit:main reason for using public charging if to get parking spaces when they are no other. We charge at home. We maybe use public charging once a month. For the first three months we had to rely on it as we didn't y have the charging at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 I get why they need to charge that. But punters will think it steep. How much do you get for a fiver? Enough to get you further than £5 worth of petrol or diesel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafu Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 How much do you get for a fiver? Enough to get you further than £5 worth of petrol or diesel?Motorway speed maybe 60-70 mile range on electric on a Zoe? Diesel petrol dunno, about the same maybe assuming 50mpg? My maths could be off. 5 quid worth of normal leccy at home would be 2-3 full charges I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 How much do you get for a fiver? Enough to get you further than £5 worth of petrol or diesel? It is difficult to be sure because it is just 'time at charger' but different cars charge at different rates. A Nissan Leaf would take about 40kW from the charger. So about 14kWh from the 20 mins, or 35p / kWh A Mitsubishi Phev would take about 20kW from the charger. So about 7kWh from the 20 mins or 70p/kWh A litre of petrol contains about 10kWh of energy, the motor/generator could be 20% efficient, so 2kWh of useful energy. At £1.10 / litre that is 55p / kWh (probably a bit worse than that because it is less than 10 kwh/litre and 20% efficiency is an overestimate) So - still expensive for an electric car, but what else are you going to do? For a hybrid you're probably better off just buying petrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Tesla Model X drives semi-conscious owner to hospital on Autopilot (updated) http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1105427_tesla-model-x-drives-semi-conscious-owner-to-hospital-on-autopilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I just put £50 of petrol in and go 250 miles.So £6 to go 60 miles isn't that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I just put £50 of petrol in and go 250 miles.So £6 to go 60 miles isn't that bad. Well, it would be if you'd front loaded the costs by paying loads for the car on the assumption that you'd be able to do 60 miles for £1. Or if you were already paying £1 every 10 miles as your battery lease charge (again, on the assumption that you can do 60 miles for a £). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libspero Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 How much do you get for a fiver? Enough to get you further than £5 worth of petrol or diesel? In my PHEV that would just about get you to the next junction.. or maybe half way to the next set of services. I'll probably just put my ecotricity card in the bin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPin Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Well, it would be if you'd front loaded the costs by paying loads for the car on the assumption that you'd be able to do 60 miles for £1. Or if you were already paying £1 every 10 miles as your battery lease charge (again, on the assumption that you can do 60 miles for a £). I don't pay loads for cars. I usually buy them off old ladies who had a posh husband once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 How I Used & Abused My Tesla — What a Tesla looks like after 100,000 Miles, a 48 State Road trip, 500 Uber Rides, 20 Rentals & 2 AirBnB sleepovers. https://medium.com/@SteveSasman/how-i-used-abused-my-tesla-what-a-tesla-looks-like-after-100-000-miles-a-48-state-road-trip-6b6ae66b3c10#.pba5z2eam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saving For a Space Ship Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 All-electric & solar-powered car successfully crowdfunded, Sono Motors aims for prod in 2018 https://electrek.co/2016/09/02/sono-motors-sion-solarcar-crowdfunded/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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