Anti-Austerity Demonstrations - 20Th Oct 2012

[SuperChimp]

Yes, the country has been sold down the river and the private sector should be out on the streets fighting for better pay and conditions as they haven't even kept pace with inflation over the past 15 years, partly due to the rampant exploits of globalisation and immigration holding private sector wages down. To turn around and attack the public sector is a mistake, like it will help anyone but your corporate puppet masters anyway. Sad to see that the media has so many twisted and misdirected :angry: .

+1.

The mainstream media has done a fantastic job over the past 5 years painting public sector workers and those who claim benefits as the cause of our current economic problems.

The same has been done with house prices and the price of land over simply a longer period. House prices are not high, it is just that the younger generation are feckless and spend all their disposable income on iPads and alcohol.

Those who own the majority of the land must be chuckling to themselves at a job well done.

[cica]

+1.

The mainstream media has done a fantastic job over the past 5 years painting public sector workers and those who claim benefits as the cause of our current economic problems.

The same has been done with house prices and the price of land over simply a longer period. House prices are not high, it is just that the younger generation are feckless and spend all their disposable income on iPads and alcohol.

Those who own the majority of the land must be chuckling to themselves at a job well done.

Yeah, it was all just made up that house prices doubled in a couple of years.

[Orsino]

The only thing that this demonstration proved is that Ed Miliband will promise anything to anybody in the hope of getting elected. It's the only strategy Labour have got and it's effectively bankrupted the country twice in my lifetime. Today he declared that his party is 'for all the young people in this country, who want to work but can't find it in Britain today.' How ironic that he declares this at a rally effectively demanding that tomorrow's children should be made to pay for today's unsustainable spending.

Public sector workers, boomers, bankers, Labour, Conservative, me, you - it's just a race to see who can steal the most from future generations. Makes me sick. A pox on all our houses.

[wonderpup]

Do you think it is in any way possible that private sector workers have been screwed by both the bankers AND elements of the public sector? The way you phrase it suggests that the two things are mutually exclusive.

Both the private sector and public sector operate the same policy of enriching a few at the top while shafting the majority- In many ways the public sector culture apes the private in this regard.

But there is something really weird about the idea that while the top 1% grow ever richer, and corporates like Starbucks pull in billions of profit and pay no tax- the battle cry of the common man is 'Get those f*cking nurses- they get paid more than we do!'

The point to bear in mind is that the bloke who empties your bins is probably not the same bloke who decided it would be a great idea to open up our economy to a billion cheap Chinese workers and outsource the industrial base.

The reason public sector workers now have better terms and conditions than most private sector workers is because they still retain a degree of organised resistance to the Pig men who run things- so the question should be- not how can we drag the public sector down to our sorry level- but how do we prevent ourselves being pissed on from above.

But maybe that's too hard- maybe it's just easier to bitch about f*cking nurses being overpaid.

[bmf]

The only thing that this demonstration proved is that Ed Miliband will promise anything to anybody in the hope of getting elected. It's the only strategy Labour have got and it's effectively bankrupted the country twice in my lifetime. Today he declared that his party is 'for all the young people in this country, who want to work but can't find it in Britain today.' How ironic that he declares this at a rally effectively demanding that tomorrow's children should be made to pay for today's unsustainable spending.

Public sector workers, boomers, bankers, Labour, Conservative, me, you - it's just a race to see who can steal the most from future generations. Makes me sick. A pox on all our houses.

What percentage of the population would be capable of making that kind of link, whether they agreed with it or not? I think it would be quite low, though it's hardly rocket science (no offence obviously).

Until education improves someone will always step into the vacuum and promise jam today and tomorrow. For example Blair.

We can't pull out the tail spin because people won't vote for someone who will improve education. And even if they did there wouldn't be enough teachers or educated parents.

Ultimately evolution steps in, but that takes a while.

[SuperChimp]

Yeah, it was all just made up that house prices doubled in a couple of years.

I am not denting that house prices rose, just that the mainstream media has not been honest as to the cause of the rise.

[wonderpup]

Yeah, it was all just made up that house prices doubled in a couple of years.

Did wages double in the same period? No.

So how did people manage to buy the houses- did they borrow the money- why yes.

So who is it that makes profits when people borrow money- that would be the bankers and their wealthy clients.

Here's how it works- the bankers lend you and everyone else insane amounts of money- which has the effect of driving up the price you pay for your house because everyone has more 'money'- which puts you into massive debt just to have roof over your head.

Then- having lent so much money the bankers go bust and then you get to bail them out- which means that your government can't afford to pay for the treatment you need when you get ill- they have all those banker's debt to pay off.

So now you are stuck with a massive mortgage on a declining asset- while your taxes are used to service the debts of the people who created the house price inflation in the first place and your government is telling you that this is all your fault because you wanted frivolous luxuries like healthcare.

Personally I blame the bin men.

[easy2012]

Both the private sector and public sector operate the same policy of enriching a few at the top while shafting the majority- In many ways the public sector culture apes the private in this regard.

Except the private sector part is more or less voluntary (if you don't waste your £ buying IPAD, Apple executrices aren't going to get any richer) and the public sector takes other people money and give it to the wrong people.

But there is something really weird about the idea that while the top 1% grow ever richer, and corporates like Starbucks pull in billions of profit and pay no tax - the battle cry of the common man is 'Get those f*cking nurses- they get paid more than we do!'

You mean corporation tax? I think even the report said they paid £8m over the last few years. Plus VAT, PAYE, Business rates, obviously.

You are an intelligent men and have been rigorous about accuracy of stuffs in other threads and I hope you apply the same level of rigour here. Relative to smaller business, it is obviously not fair, but we could do with a 15% corporation tax on bit or small companies and cut the state significantly.

The point to bear in mind is that the bloke who empties your bins is probably not the same bloke who decided it would be a great idea to open up our economy to a billion cheap Chinese workers and outsource the industrial base.

The reason public sector workers now have better terms and conditions than most private sector workers is because they still retain a degree of organised resistance to the Pig men who run things- so the question should be- not how can we drag the public sector down to our sorry level- but how do we prevent ourselves being pissed on from above.

But maybe that's too hard- maybe it's just easier to bitch about f*cking nurses being overpaid.

Don't worry though, demonstration and unionisation isn't going to change economic realities. Those may be able to force a bigger piece of pie to be allocated to them in the short term, but unless we close the border and rot like the socialist paradise, economic realities will catch up with such misallocations.

There isn't a single country on earth that became large welfare state + large public sector and then got rich. All those who are rich and run large welfare states got rich first, then got the luxury to run a large public sector and welfare state.

[billfunk]

But there is something really weird about the idea that while the top 1% grow ever richer, and corporates like Starbucks pull in billions of profit and pay no tax- the battle cry of the common man is 'Get those f*cking nurses- they get paid more than we do!'

I would have thought that the battle cry of the common man is "why do I have to subsidise other people's pensions when I can't even afford one of my own?" and in the same breath "why do I have to subsidise large multinationals through tax credits when they already make hundreds of millions of profit and pay next to no tax?".

I would hope that the former battle cry was used in a discussion on public sector finances and the latter battle cry in a discussion relating to tax evasion. I would find it bizarre if each battle cry was used in response to the non-corresponding discussion. Nurses are not involved in corporate tax evasion and Starbucks are not involved in the NHS pension scheme.

I honestly can not understand why you think the two issues are necessarily conflated. They are two seperate ways in which net tax payers are being shafted.

[easy2012]

I would have thought that the battle cry of the common man is "why do I have to subsidise other people's pensions when I can't even afford one of my own?" and in the same breath "why do I have to subsidise large multinationals through tax credits when they already make hundreds of millions of profit and pay next to no tax?".

I would hope that the former battle cry was used in a discussion on public sector finances and the latter battle cry in a discussion relating to tax evasion. I would find it bizarre if each battle cry was used in response to the non-corresponding discussion. Nurses are not involved in corporate tax evasion and Starbucks are not involved in the NHS pension scheme.

I honestly can not understand why you think the two issues are necessarily conflated. They are two seperate ways in which net tax payers are being shafted.

So are corporations who paid next tax after deducting the tax credits among the 'shafted' net tax payers ?

[billfunk]

So are corporations who paid next tax after deducting the tax credits among the 'shafted' net tax payers ?

It would depend on how much a particular corporation reflected the labour of its workers, the demands it put on our infrastructure and its social good. Not black and white at all in my book.

The lone operator painter-and-decorater I would say was among the shafted tax payers.

Starbucks I would say are not. They are currently squatting on our infrastructure. A starbucks worker is, however.

[cybernoid]

the private sector should be out on the streets fighting for better pay and conditions

Fighting who? The 'fat cat' at the top of the company, who in most cases is just a hard working entrepreneurial guy who had the balls to give it a shot starting a SME providing employment and actually making about the same as the employees? The greedy decorator who had the evil intent of exploiting a young guy from the job centre by giving them a few days work when a large job came in unexpectedly he couldn't do on his own?

All of which have to hand over gobs of cash to the government so they can continue to give the likes of the whining ungrateful btches on that march in their nothing jobs their free money?

Most public sector 'workers' need to taste the real world, it will do them good when they are finally binned, give them an opportunity to discover where all that free money actually came from.

Then they might not whine so much if they ever make it back into the easy life.

[thecrashingisles]

Yes, the country has been sold down the river and the private sector should be out on the streets fighting for better pay and conditions as they haven't even kept pace with inflation over the past 15 years, partly due to the rampant exploits of globalisation and immigration holding private sector wages down. To turn around and attack the public sector is a mistake, like it will help anyone but your corporate puppet masters anyway. Sad to see that the media has so many twisted and misdirected :angry: .

To accept this argument is to bury your head in the sand. We are in an environment where globalisation and the overhang of debt are creating massive deflationary forces in the economy. We will maintain our current standard of living not by fighting for better pay, but by fighting for lower costs. Too many people focus only on their income and not on their expenses, in particular tax and accommodation.

People marching to protect their entrenched privileges are just exacerbating the problem and making us all poorer in real terms.

[workingatthepyramid]

People marching to protect their entrenched privileges are just exacerbating the problem and making us all poorer in real terms.

I would have some respect for wonderpups pov. if the apparatchiks were attacking the bastions of the corrupt state that bailed out the bankers and corporations etc instead of trying to extort privileges from them at the expense of the actual oppressed.

[Damik]

I would have some respect for wonderpups pov. if the apparatchiks were attacking the bastions of the corrupt state that bailed out the bankers and corporations etc instead of trying to extort privileges from them at the expense of the actual oppressed.

you forget that UK deficit is now the largest in EU. you and Greeks can strike to the rest of your days, but it does not change the fact that UK and Greece are out of money pretty soon.

[Bloo Loo]

To accept this argument is to bury your head in the sand. We are in an environment where globalisation and the overhang of debt are creating massive deflationary forces in the economy. We will maintain our current standard of living not by fighting for better pay, but by fighting for lower costs. Too many people focus only on their income and not on their expenses, in particular tax and accommodation.

People marching to protect their entrenched privileges are just exacerbating the problem and making us all poorer in real terms.

Its only natural to look out for yourself.

Today though, there is a strong feeling of ENTITLEMENT added to the mix.

for example, I bought my house with my hard earned cash, I THEREFORE have every right to keep it, whatever happened to my job, my health, my stupidity, my house value, my mortgage, my 6 kids, my drug habit, my portfolio of BTLS, my arrears, my divorce.....

And Democratic Politics enables and encourages this attitude....any hard stand leads to the other party getting in...facing the same issues and the same fears.

[winkie]

I would have more sympathy for the young unemployed, underemployed going on strike.... those that want to work and have been looking for a good secure job with good prospects and benefits that pays enough to rent a room, pay the bills with a bit left to save for a deposit, than the people who already have a job but still request the rest with little or nothing to pay them even more.

[DeepLurker]

I would have some respect for wonderpups pov. if the apparatchiks were attacking the bastions of the corrupt state that bailed out the bankers and corporations etc instead of trying to extort privileges from them at the expense of the actual oppressed.

+1

For all the talk here of private-sector HPCers missing the point and attacking other workers rather than the puppet-masters - the muppets on that march are doing exactly the same.

[Sour Mash]

Watching some of the interviews on the news I get the impression that the protestors are confusing inflation with 'austerity' (of which there has been very little sign).

Most of their complaints are that the cost of living has shot up and they aren't getting paid correspondingly more. They should be marching in front of the Bank of England and demanding an end to financial repression, not agitating for higher taxes so that their salaries/benefits can keep up with the deliberately stoked inflation.

[Dorkins]

Most of their complaints are that the cost of living has shot up and they aren't getting paid correspondingly more. They should be marching in front of the Bank of England

+1 (trillion Zim£)

[dances with sheeple]

+1

For all the talk here of private-sector HPCers missing the point and attacking other workers rather than the puppet-masters - the muppets on that march are doing exactly the same.

Yes, some of them sound thick as shite, too much time watching X- Fartor style pish IMO. BOTH "leaders" appear to be telling them santa`s bag is empty though?

Just had an awful vision of J.S there

Edited October 21, 2012 by dances with sheeple

[@contradevian]

I'd like to see a private sector equivalent of this march, with small businesses withholding their taxes in the same way the public sector witholds their labour.

I'd quite like to see a private sector dependent on the private sector rather than public sector hand outs and contracts.

[billfunk]

I'd quite like to see a private sector dependent on the private sector rather than public sector hand outs and contracts.

I think the majority of the private sector would also like to see an end to crony capitalist companies. Of course, a large part of the private is comprised of SMEs who for the most part do not get government contracts and can not afford to bribe the politicians in order to get them.

Is that what you meant when you said "private sector" or do you think it is a monolithic whole?

[Jail Them All]

Austerity is not only affecting the over staffed departments who could afford to have 2/5 of their staff absent at any one time due to sickness / holidays, their pensions and benefits (the majority of these departments would not survive as businesses in the competitive private sector). The cuts are also affecting large Capex projects, tired roads, substandard comms, poor utilities, most of which are contracts awarded to the private sector. Those cuts are beginning to whittle down causing an abrupt surge in unemployment (private sector workers have less protection).

If the private sector don't make a profit and pay taxes, where will the public money come from?

[winkie]

Austerity is not only affecting the over staffed departments who could afford to have 2/5 of their staff absent at any one time due to sickness / holidays, their pensions and benefits (the majority of these departments would not survive as businesses in the competitive private sector). The cuts are also affecting large Capex projects, tired roads, substandard comms, poor utilities, most of which are contracts awarded to the private sector. Those cuts are beginning to whittle down causing an abrupt surge in unemployment (private sector workers have less protection).

If the private sector don't make a profit and pay taxes, where will the public money come from?

The self employed don't get sick pay, holiday pay or top-up pensions taken before 65.

Edit to say....see how hard it is for the self employed to obtain a mortgage....classified as second class citizens, then you wonder why a public sector job or a financial gambling job has now become the easy way to leverage and riches, entrepreneurialism has been dying a slow death over the last 25 years, the lack of benefits and risks have become too great....governments, local authorities and big corporations hate them, the small people are only there to be ripped off taken over and eaten.

Edited October 21, 2012 by winkie