crashmonitor Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I suppose we have to put a lot of trust in these guys to press the stop button, lest we forget the suicide driver that killed himself and 35 passengers in the 1970s by driving into a dead end. The safety angle has always given Crow a bit of leverage on pay deals. Though I reckon that overland is a bit more complicted with all the signalling. Thinking of the 8.06 from Paddington where the driver Hodder was completely mesmorised by all the gangtries at Ladbrooke Grove and smashed it into another train as he drove through reds causing carnage. Though automatic stopping has made things a bit safer these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainlessSteelCat Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 This is interesting. There is a lot of 'Good on them' 'Why wouldn't they' 'I would do the same' 'Good luck to them getting all they can' about on this thread. Which I can see the point of. Then again - why does this not apply to the much hated 'bankers' in London as well ? Because they don't do a real job ? Because they have been part of the mess this country is in ? Well perhaps. But then again - just like the tube drivers - they are holding the City of London to ransom - and getting away with it for their personal gain. Why 'good luck' to one of these groups and 'they should be hung up and burned alive' to the other ? You can't have your cake and eat it. If you accept that people can go out and get what they want this way - then the same has to go for Tube drivers, Bankers, Doctors and anyone else for that matter. Just a hunch but I guess most people can see some value in a train driver. Ditto doctors. The only disagreement is how much they should be compensated. As for bankers, I guess most people don't see so much value in professional skimmers who are willing to bankrupt the entire country (and the next few generations) for their 'contribution' to society while proclaiming themselves 'masters of the universe'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efdemin Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 This is interesting. There is a lot of 'Good on them' 'Why wouldn't they' 'I would do the same' 'Good luck to them getting all they can' about on this thread. Which I can see the point of. Then again - why does this not apply to the much hated 'bankers' in London as well ? Because they don't do a real job ? Because they have been part of the mess this country is in ? Well perhaps. But then again - just like the tube drivers - they are holding the City of London to ransom - and getting away with it for their personal gain. Why 'good luck' to one of these groups and 'they should be hung up and burned alive' to the other ? You can't have your cake and eat it. If you accept that people can go out and get what they want this way - then the same has to go for Tube drivers, Bankers, Doctors and anyone else for that matter. When I say fair play, I don't support what they're doing but then pragmatically, everyone else is at it so that's just the way it seems to work? It's a lot easier to distance myself from it since I don't use the tube every day. At least they get people from A to B, bankers just take a % of everything you've ever earned and act like they're god's gift to society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 We know bankers cause serious hassle. However this would not be possible without the likes ot tube drivers to go along with their schemes - would it ? I just don't think you can pick and choose when discussing people going all out for themselves and not really caring if they are 'worth it' or 'value for money' or whatever. In fact - if you have this view - surely we should give more credit to the 'bankers'. As they are not actually doing anything that productive, they are getting more than the tube driver - and they are getting away with it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miko Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 This is interesting. There is a lot of 'Good on them' 'Why wouldn't they' 'I would do the same' 'Good luck to them getting all they can' about on this thread. Which I can see the point of. Then again - why does this not apply to the much hated 'bankers' in London as well ? Because they don't do a real job ? Because they have been part of the mess this country is in ? Well perhaps. But then again - just like the tube drivers - they are holding the City of London to ransom - and getting away with it for their personal gain. Why 'good luck' to one of these groups and 'they should be hung up and burned alive' to the other ? You can't have your cake and eat it. If you accept that people can go out and get what they want this way - then the same has to go for Tube drivers, Bankers, Doctors and anyone else for that matter. I don't think there is much of a comparison between the bankers and the tube drivers. £50k for tube drivers sounds like a hell of a lot of money compared to someone working in a NMW job and it is , but the bankers really are in another universe. They earn lottery wins year in year out . Not only that but after bringing this country to it's knees and almost destroying it they have been bailed out by the tax payer and are now carring on as before while jo public pays for it via higher taxes and job cuts. " WHY GOOD LUCK TO ONE OF THESE GROUPS AND THEY SHOULD BE HUNG UP AND BURNED ALIVE TO THE OTHER " If you look at both and a sense of fair play , the tube drivers are at the top of the pile when it comes to pay ( for manual average jobs ) the bankers really are something removed from all reality . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miko Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 We know bankers cause serious hassle. However this would not be possible without the likes ot tube drivers to go along with their schemes - would it ? The tube drivers like most other people did not have a clue what the bankers were doing untill they were called on via their taxes to bail them out. They also have no choice in the matter again like most other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efdemin Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 We know bankers cause serious hassle. However this would not be possible without the likes ot tube drivers to go along with their schemes - would it ? I just don't think you can pick and choose when discussing people going all out for themselves and not really caring if they are 'worth it' or 'value for money' or whatever. In fact - if you have this view - surely we should give more credit to the 'bankers'. As they are not actually doing anything that productive, they are getting more than the tube driver - and they are getting away with it.... What choice does a tube have but to go along with the system the bankers provide? I don't see where they have a choice at all. They will be paid electronically, have a pension run on their behalf, etc, etc. Bit of a red herring that, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efdemin Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) What choice does a tube driver have but to go along with the system the bankers provide? I don't see where they have a choice at all. They will be paid electronically, have a pension run on their behalf, etc, etc. Bit of a red herring that, I think. Edit: doh, edited to add 'driver' but replied by mistake... Edited October 4, 2011 by efdemin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustyDog Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Im not saying get those on McDonolds up to 50k , what i am saying is why drag people who enjoy good wages down , just because others earn less . Wages in McDonolds could go up without increases in price if the owners were not paying so much in rent for their restraunts. McDonolds and London underground both take big money , in the case of LU more of it goes into wages where as at MD's less goes into wages and is diverted to other areas like rents. There needs to be a rebalancing in many companies and organisations . Said it in the post you answered and will say it again AVERAGE PEOPLE moaning about those earning a good wage are helping getting wages accross the board down , instead of looking at ways other people could earn more. You could apply that argument to the pensions of the public sector. Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match. Let's drag everyone down to the same miserable level of pay and pension. Common denominator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miko Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 You could apply that argument to the pensions of the public sector. Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match. Let's drag everyone down to the same miserable level of pay and pension. Common denominator. Yes The private sector should be demanding that the money taken from their pensions via taxes on dividends and the fees taken by investors and managers be looked at and changed . However instead of that they swallow the pill given to them that those in the public sector are having a party and want to bring them down to their level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I don't think there is much of a comparison between the bankers and the tube drivers. £50k for tube drivers sounds like a hell of a lot of money compared to someone working in a NMW job and it is , but the bankers really are in another universe. They earn lottery wins year in year out . Not only that but after bringing this country to it's knees and almost destroying it they have been bailed out by the tax payer and are now carring on as before while jo public pays for it via higher taxes and job cuts. " WHY GOOD LUCK TO ONE OF THESE GROUPS AND THEY SHOULD BE HUNG UP AND BURNED ALIVE TO THE OTHER " If you look at both and a sense of fair play , the tube drivers are at the top of the pile when it comes to pay ( for manual average jobs ) the bankers really are something removed from all reality . You clearly have no idea what the 'average' banker earns. I can assure you it is a hell of a lot less than a tube driver - based on the figures we are given in this story. As you say when looking at it from a 'fair play' angle then it appears that there is a difference between the two. However who are we to decide that ? They are both holding a city to ransom to get more cash in their pockets at the end of every month. I don't think there is as great a difference as many would like to think. They are both just groups of people looking out for themselves at the expense of others. The tube drivers like most other people did not have a clue what the bankers were doing untill they were called on via their taxes to bail them out. They also have no choice in the matter again like most other people. Most of the bankers didn’t have a clue what they were doing either. Should we absolve them of all blame due to this as well ? Is ignorance an excuse ? "Oh as a mere tube driver I was conned into believing my 8 BTL's leveraged at an insane level would go up in value for ever more. It was not my fault I got involved - it is all the fault of those big bad bankers….." I don't think so. What choice does a tube have but to go along with the system the bankers provide? I don't see where they have a choice at all. They will be paid electronically, have a pension run on their behalf, etc, etc. Bit of a red herring that, I think. I am talking about people in general. We all go along with the system that is provided. Now whilst that does not mean it is our fault directly - we are all part of it. Whether we like it or not. It just seems to be that the more you can make out of this situation = the badder you are. When in fact it requires many many people involved of all levels - for this to continue to work. I just fail to see how Mr Tube driver doing all he can to line his pockets - is in reality - much different from Mr Banker doing exactly the same. Mr Banker just seems better at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_flaps_* Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 You could apply that argument to the pensions of the public sector. Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match.Let's drag everyone down to the same miserable level of pay and pension. Common denominator. Because most in the private sector live in the real world, whereas the public sector don't. They still think there is a magic money tree at No. 10 and that they really pay taxes etc. Why would I strike to further fuel an unsustainable ponzi scheme? The public sector in general) cannot see beyond the end of their nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miko Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 You clearly have no idea what the 'average' banker earns. I can assure you it is a hell of a lot less than a tube driver - based on the figures we are given in this story. As you say when looking at it from a 'fair play' angle then it appears that there is a difference between the two. However who are we to decide that ? They are both holding a city to ransom to get more cash in their pockets at the end of every month. I don't think there is as great a difference as many would like to think. They are both just groups of people looking out for themselves at the expense of others. Most of the bankers didn’t have a clue what they were doing either. Should we absolve them of all blame due to this as well ? Is ignorance an excuse ? "Oh as a mere tube driver I was conned into believing my 8 BTL's leveraged at an insane level would go up in value for ever more. It was not my fault I got involved - it is all the fault of those big bad bankers….." I don't think so. I am talking about people in general. We all go along with the system that is provided. Now whilst that does not mean it is our fault directly - we are all part of it. Whether we like it or not. It just seems to be that the more you can make out of this situation = the badder you are. When in fact it requires many many people involved of all levels - for this to continue to work. I just fail to see how Mr Tube driver doing all he can to line his pockets - is in reality - much different from Mr Banker doing exactly the same. Mr Banker just seems better at it. Let me explain When talking about the bankers Im talking about the ones on the megga money not the run of the mill average banker . The ones you now describe as earning very little are irrelevant to the topic by your own words ( you now say they earn less than the tube drivers . So which bankers are you talking about those on megga bucks or those on average wages. No one has a bug bare with those run of the mill bankers, who are just gogs in the workings of things like most other people . Just for the record neither you or me know what the average banker earns . However 1000 + Bankers earn't over £1 million in a bonus last year and from that 1000 some went into £5, £10 and £20 million , these are the Bankers that are in another universe to the tube drivers . NO COMPARISON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Ok let's just focus on the mega bankers then. No comparison ? Really ? They are both probably males. They both probably didn't at age 14 decide 'I want to be a banker/tube driver when I grow up'. They both probably just did a bit of this and a bit of that until they ended up in the position they are in today. They are both just people. Now they both see a way in which they can line their pockets as much as possible by holding other people/businesses to ransom. They both quite happily do it and don't care if what they are doing is 'fair' or 'moral' or 'right'. It is best for them so they fire ahead. All they can get away with. They are clearly not so different at all. One just happens to be in an industry that yields more power - resulting in the return of their ransom being greater than the other. You really think if Mr Tube driver had taken the 'banking' route instead he would do anything else differently from what Mr Banker is doing today ? I don't. And I am 99% certain of that. As I have said about 100 times on this forum - people are the problem. That is about it. Everything else is just noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monks Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Being discussed on Jeremy Vine - Bob Crow claims tube drivers did not cause the huge economic mess we are in (ignoring inflation busting pay rises and gold plated pension liabilities). Also being a tube driver is more complicated than flying an Airbus A380 as there are more passengers on the plane... George Galloway getting hot under the collar when someone suggests we use "driverless trains". Great listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buccaneer Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 You could apply that argument to the pensions of the public sector. Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match. Let's drag everyone down to the same miserable level of pay and pension. Common denominator. The private sector cannot afford the costs of existing pensions which have much less generous terms than the average public sector scheme. To impose public sector pension type costs on the majority of private sector firms would either bankrupt them entirely or render them so unprofitable the owners would eventually shift their capital elsewhere. Jobs would be lost on a massive scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Seriously? Isn't the Singapore one almost all automatic? I'm not sure if the idea of a western style workers' union exists in say, Tokyo or Seoul? Or is this a backhanded union-bashing post instead of looking at the people who are driving the strikes themselves? oh right, genuinely, thanks for thisnugget, i didn't know faier play, so my guess was wrong - automate ther tube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 This is interesting. There is a lot of 'Good on them' 'Why wouldn't they' 'I would do the same' 'Good luck to them getting all they can' about on this thread. Which I can see the point of. Then again - why does this not apply to the much hated 'bankers' in London as well ? Because they don't do a real job ? Because they have been part of the mess this country is in ? Well perhaps. But then again - just like the tube drivers - they are holding the City of London to ransom - and getting away with it for their personal gain. Why 'good luck' to one of these groups and 'they should be hung up and burned alive' to the other ? You can't have your cake and eat it. If you accept that people can go out and get what they want this way - then the same has to go for Tube drivers, Bankers, Doctors and anyone else for that matter. it's just a question of the jobs market being screwed by militant unionism and the cost of living pushed up - this is Wrong whoever does it, and yes I do blame them, but I blame bankers more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Yes The private sector should be demanding that the money taken from their pensions via taxes on dividends and the fees taken by investors and managers be looked at and changed . However instead of that they swallow the pill given to them that those in the public sector are having a party and want to bring them down to their level. You could apply that argument to the pensions of the public sector. Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match. Let's drag everyone down to the same miserable level of pay and pension. Common denominator. I'm sorry but what foolish posts firstly, public sector pensions in their prior guise are unaffordable, this is the crux, it is not jealousy that is driving theiur reform, it is insolvency and 2ndly the previous and current govts have introduced and are introducing reforms to the private pension system to reduce fees and increase employer buy-in, so the public demanded and got, but this is a different issue from the simple fact that money doesn't grow on trees much as I wish it would Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustyDog Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm sorry but what foolish posts firstly, public sector pensions in their prior guise are unaffordable, this is the crux, it is not jealousy that is driving theiur reform, it is insolvency and 2ndly the previous and current govts have introduced and are introducing reforms to the private pension system to reduce fees and increase employer buy-in, so the public demanded and got, but this is a different issue from the simple fact that money doesn't grow on trees much as I wish it would Why foolish posts? Money doesn't grow on trees but private sector employees pay a hell of a lot towards their pension and get bugger all in return. How much did Fred Goodwin pay into his pension? How much has government stolen from private sector pensions? How much are the board of the BOE getting for their pensions? And politicians? How much has Tony Blair managed to screw out of the country for his pension? No, money doesn't grow on trees. But most of it is in the hands of a select few. How much money was wasted on bank bonuses to nationalised bank employees? Maybe if the limited money supply was spread around a bit more fairly then there might be enough for every tax payer to have a decent pension that they can enjoy for ten years or so rather than having to work until they drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Why foolish posts? Money doesn't grow on trees but private sector employees pay a hell of a lot towards their pension and get bugger all in return. no they don't; the problem, and it is backed up by stats, is that the private sector simply have not paid enough in over the years to their pension pots you said they should strike about this - however firstly how do you strike in protest at your own actions? and secondly, since the govt is already addressing this directly, with continuity from the last govt, what is there to strike against? what? go on tell me How much did Fred Goodwin pay into his pension? How much has government stolen from private sector pensions? How much are the board of the BOE getting for their pensions? And politicians? How much has Tony Blair managed to screw out of the country for his pension? so the public should strike should they? that would help? they already voted out the guilty previous govt on this, what else should they do? tap their heels together and dream of kansas? No, money doesn't grow on trees. But most of it is in the hands of a select few. How much money was wasted on bank bonuses to nationalised bank employees? ditto I am equally outraged, but i again cannot see what you really want to do - overturn 100 years of political stability to break what were legally (albheit stupidly) granted contracts? that what you want to do, take our democratic inheritance and rob it from later generations to satisfy your outrage? Maybe if the limited money supply was spread around a bit more fairly then there might be enough for every tax payer to have a decent pension that they can enjoy for ten years or so rather than having to work until they drop. well yes, and I think we are heading in that direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Why are the private sector workers criticising the public sector for striking about possible downgrades to their gold-plated pension plans, when they should instead be striking to demand that their pensions be upgraded to match. Great idea, let's all band together to drive away what's left of British industry, professional services and anything else of value. Then when the entire private sector has been offshored to Chindia except for the bankers plus McDonalds and Tescos the new labour project will be complete. Or we could expect those who receive their income from the public purse to live in the same world as those that don't; maybe we could use the money we save to make adequate provision for our own pensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappycocco Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Theres about four jobs on the tfl site and none of them is tube driving. How the hell do I get a foot in the door for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustyDog Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 ok,ok. I'll get my coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Theres about four jobs on the tfl site and none of them is tube driving. How the hell do I get a foot in the door for this? Presumably you apply for one of those jobs, join the union, ingratiate yourself with whoever's important then apply for the driver's jobs. Problem is that by the time you've done that the Olympics will be over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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