Chaos As Ba Staff Looking To Be Christmas Turkeys On Strike.

[SMAC67]

BA is a pension fund with a second-rate airline attached.

It lost £400m in the year to March, and has lost a further £292m in the half year to September. While we are in difficult times economically, these figures speak for themselves. When is BA's anyone's first choice to go anywhere? Singapore Air is so much better long haul going East and most people would pick Virgin Atlantic to the US. It is probably only a competitive choice when up against the US airlines, which are pretty poor.

BA is a loss making company that overpays its staff. It needs to scale back its services, reduce pay and become more efficient.

The cabin crew, overpaid in relation to their competitors, need to get with it. This strike will be utterly counter-productive and ensure that BA loses thousands of customers for ever. In reality, I think that this strike is actually a bargaining tool and the union will try to make a deal. However, they are playing a very dangerous game and the strike will probably lead to the airline's insolvency and their own redundancy.

All the US carriers across the Atlantic (with the possible exception of Continental) are insolvent, as are Virgin, as are BA, and Singapore will keep going as long as it's government keeps pumping in massive subsidies. Eveyone is the world of aviation will be redundant soon enough.

Although as Blue points out, I'm sure the property market will be propped up till the bitter end. What we need is more property developers!

[Ah-so]

How many more people are going to whine "BUT THEY ARE ALREADY ON SOO MUCH MONEY!!"

Yes, they are on lots of money because they and their union refuse to eat sh1t. Maybe the spivs can give up some money so the little people can have some of the good life. No, what an abhorrent idea. Big money is only for those talented director types, like Fred Goodwin.

It's the same with the tube drivers "OOH, BUT THEY EARN SO MUCH MONEY ALREADY BLAHDY BLAH BLAH" -- again, because their union does its f*cking job.

A few decades ago, wasn't board level pay much nearer to the lower rung workers, like maybe 5 or 10 times higher? What is it now, a 100 times higher? And people moan at successful unions who negotiate better pay for their staff. As I said, maybe the spivs should be giving something back, or is that too outlandish?

Tube and train drivers have a monopoly on driving trains, which is why they can be so overpaid for pressing Close, Start, Stop, Open. I do not know how long it will be until tubes are driven by computer, but it can't be soon enough. But yes, the union does its effing job rather well.

Airlines are different - there is so much competition, much of it foreign. How will BA compete with Singapore Air? I will never fly BA long haul unless it supplies hordes of attentive, young oriental women to look after me. BA cannot compete with its frumpy housewives and perma-tanned camp stewards. I doubly will not fly with them due to its poorer service and record of industrial action. This strike really is a case of turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Ah-so]

All the US carriers across the Atlantic (with the possible exception of Continental) are insolvent, as are Virgin, as are BA, and Singapore will keep going as long as it's government keeps pumping in massive subsidies. Eveyone is the world of aviation will be redundant soon enough.

Virgin seems to be making a profit:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/26/virgin-atlantic-airline-profits

Virgin Atlantic has announced that it has almost doubled annual profits, just a few days after rival British Airways reported a record loss. The airline said pre-tax profits soared from £34.8m to £68.4m in the year to February, despite a backdrop of volatile oil prices and the deep recession. The results contrast with BA's record annual operating loss of £401m, reported last Friday, after its fuel bill reached almost £3bn.

[SMAC67]

I'd be staggered if there's anyone in the country doing my job for 50% of what I earn but if you want to look for yourself try finding a role in the South East for a qualified accountant with 3+ years PQE for about £20,000. Best of luck with that one.

More to the point it isn't a question of someone doing the same job for less, it's everyone else doing the same job for less.

And that is why your job is in the process of being off-shored to the Indian Sub-continent where someone with your qualifications can do the same job for £7K. You too are going to be underemployed sooner than you think. There is nowhere to hide in this depression for the average worker. But don't worry, our top management, bankers, and politicans will continue to enjoy payrises and bonuses, it's not like any of them can be replaced. Or can they? Maybe like the tube driver they could be replaced by computers, obviously programmed by people in the Indian Sub-continent too. I have an idea, why don't we just sell the UK to India and be done with it.

It would have a nice symmetry, the one time slaves of our empire owning their old masters! We could rename it Albionistan...........cool!

[SMAC67]

Virgin seems to be making a profit:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/26/virgin-atlantic-airline-profits

Ah, the crazy world of Enron style accounting, it's just great. As JK Galbraith states in his book, The Economics of Innocent Fraud, "modern accountancy is merely a way of obfuscating financial reality". Virgin is still for sale if you want to buy it?

[Ah-so]

Ah, the crazy world of Enron style accounting, it's just great. As JK Galbraith states in his book, The Economics of Innocent Fraud, "modern accountancy is merely a way of obfuscating financial reality". Virgin is still for sale if you want to buy it?

So how do you know the state of Virgin's true health? It is not a sarcastic question - I genuinely would like to know.

Personally I consider accountancy pretty good these days. It does not work where there is genuine criminal fraud taking place, but audited accounts of P&L, balance sheet and cash flow statement give a good picture of a company.

[Goat]

And that is why your job is in the process of being off-shored to the Indian Sub-continent where someone with your qualifications can do the same job for £7K. You too are going to be underemployed sooner than you think.

It sounds good in theory but I know firms that have tried it and by and large they haven't been impressed with the results.

And remember this is a job that pays me around £22 per hour rather than the £60+ that the cabin crew feel they're entitled to.

In the long term Indian wages will rise relative to UK wages until all the offshored jobs return to the UK. Not much point locating your call centre in Delhi if the workers want 20% more than their UK equivilents.

[LuckyOne]

It sounds good in theory but I know firms that have tried it and by and large they haven't been impressed with the results.

And remember this is a job that pays me around £22 per hour rather than the £60+ that the cabin crew feel they're entitled to.

In the long term Indian wages will rise relative to UK wages until all the offshored jobs return to the UK. Not much point locating your call centre in Delhi if the workers want 20% more than their UK equivilents.

Most of the UK call centres seem to be based in impoverished bits of Scotland. I find it easier to understand the people who work in the Delhi call centres so maybe they do deserve some sort of premium.

[Guest absolutezero]

I'd be staggered if there's anyone in the country doing my job for 50% of what I earn but if you want to look for yourself try finding a role in the South East for a qualified accountant with 3+ years PQE for about £20,000. Best of luck with that one.

More to the point it isn't a question of someone doing the same job for less, it's everyone else doing the same job for less.

Beware the Indians.

When you've been outsourced or had to reduce your rates because of your competitors outsourcing, don't come on here moaning.

I always thought you must be bombproof given your attitude on here. Accountancy is a very easy one to outsource.

[Guest absolutezero]

And that is why your job is in the process of being off-shored to the Indian Sub-continent where someone with your qualifications can do the same job for £7K. You too are going to be underemployed sooner than you think. There is nowhere to hide in this depression for the average worker. But don't worry, our top management, bankers, and politicans will continue to enjoy payrises and bonuses, it's not like any of them can be replaced. Or can they? Maybe like the tube driver they could be replaced by computers, obviously programmed by people in the Indian Sub-continent too. I have an idea, why don't we just sell the UK to India and be done with it.

It would have a nice symmetry, the one time slaves of our empire owning their old masters! We could rename it Albionistan...........cool!

Indeed.

The only jobs that are safe are the front line, professional, public sector ones that can't be done anywhere except for at the point of use.

Doctors, teachers, nurses. That sort of thing.

The private sector is going to die. Why can't you lot see that?

[Guest absolutezero]

It sounds good in theory but I know firms that have tried it and by and large they haven't been impressed with the results.

And remember this is a job that pays me around £22 per hour rather than the £60+ that the cabin crew feel they're entitled to.

In the long term Indian wages will rise relative to UK wages until all the offshored jobs return to the UK. Not much point locating your call centre in Delhi if the workers want 20% more than their UK equivilents.

The results won't matter a jot when the profitability of the business comes into question.

Your job will be outsourced.

Your wage is totally irrelevant to the argument.

The return of the offshored jobs will not happen within our lifetimes.

[Goat]

I always thought you must be bombproof given your attitude on here. Accountancy is a very easy one to outsource.

Nope just a realist.

The private sector is going to die. Why can't you lot see that?

Without the private sector, who's going to pay for the public sector?

[Guest absolutezero]

Nope just a realist.

Without the private sector, who's going to pay for the public sector?

Once you implement import controls and going down the protectionism route (which will happen sooner or later) you can just print the money.

We will have an effectively communist state.

How can you describe yourself as a realist when you think your job that can be done by anyone with a computer and the right skills won't be outsourced?

Edited December 16, 2009 by absolutezero

[Goat]

How can you describe yourself as a realist when you think your job that can be done by anyone with a computer and the right skills won't be outsourced?

With respect, I think I know how easy or hard it would be to outsource my job. It's not anywhere the top of my list of worries.

One way to guarantee it would be outsourced PDQ would be to form a union and strike for better pay and conditions.

We will have an effectively communist state.

So we can all starve to death, brilliant idea AZ.

The Great Leap Forward of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social plan used from 1958 to 1961 which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform China from a primarily agrarian economy by peasant farmers into a modern communist society through the process of agriculturalization and industrialization. Mao Zedong based this program on the Theory of Productive Forces. It ended in catastrophe as it triggered a widespread famine that resulted in tens of millions of deaths.

[sunonmars]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236289/BA-strike-British-Airways-cabin-crew-unions-memo-declares-ruined-Christmases-forgotten.html

All going well for Brown's Britain plc. Ok, lets lay bets for the next to walkout.

More festive travel misery on the cards as Eurostar drivers join BA cabin staff in Christmas walkouts

Eurostar staff added to the festive travel misery this afternoon as workers agreed a series of strikes to disrupt Christmas services.

As up to a million British Airways customers feared their Christmases would be ruined by striking cabin staff, thousands more planning to cross the Channel with the rail operator today had their plans thrown into disarray.

Last-ditch talks aimed at averting the 48-hour walkout by drivers and on-board staff on Friday and Saturday broke down without agreement.

Eurostar said it was confident of running a normal service despite the industrial action

The drivers' union Aslef and the Transport Salaried Staffs Association (TSSA) have warned they will take further strike action on Boxing Day and December 27 unless the row is resolved.

Gerry Doherty, leader of the TSSA, said: 'We know this will cause huge disappointment to travellers who are planning Christmas shopping trips to Lille and Paris and I wish to apologise in advance for the inconvenience this will cause.

'But their anger would be better directed at Eurostar, who have been refusing for months to reach a sensible settlement with us.'

Eurostar is operated by drivers from France and Belgium as well as the UK but the unions believe there will be disruption to services.

Edited December 16, 2009 by sunonmars

[Guest absolutezero]

With respect, I think I know how easy or hard it would be to outsource my job. It's not anywhere the top of my list of worries.

One way to guarantee it would be outsourced PDQ would be to form a union and strike for better pay and conditions.

This is the problem.

Striking will only work for essential, frontline, public sector workers who provide the service at the point of use.

So we can all starve to death, brilliant idea AZ.

Now you see what I see.

Not nice is it? But that's how it'll go.

EDIT The communism, not the starving.

Communism doesn't have to mean death (except in the black and white thinkers' minds on here).

Edited December 16, 2009 by absolutezero

[council dweller]

Without the private sector, who's going to pay for the public sector?

You don't really need to spell it out so clearly, anyone who spends time on this site will know the answer.

My wife and I are doing our best; I've cut my working week down to P-T 16 hrs and now pay almost no tax. My wife works F-T for the NHS....

Even the USSR produced 'some' tractors.....can't see things going on too much longer, can you?

[Guest absolutezero]

You don't really need to spell it out so clearly, anyone who spends time on this site will know the answer.

My wife and I are doing our best; I've cut my working week down to P-T 16 hrs and now pay almost no tax. My wife works F-T for the NHS....

Even the USSR produced 'some' tractors.....can't see things going on too much longer, can you?

The UK is the 6th largest manfacturer in the world.

[piece of paper]

The UK is the 6th largest manfacturer fabricator (of statistics) in the world.

Fixed for free.

p-o-p

[wonderpup]

It sounds good in theory but I know firms that have tried it and by and large they haven't been impressed with the results.

And remember this is a job that pays me around £22 per hour rather than the £60+ that the cabin crew feel they're entitled to.

In the long term Indian wages will rise relative to UK wages until all the offshored jobs return to the UK. Not much point locating your call centre in Delhi if the workers want 20% more than their UK equivilents

There's a guy who posts on here quite often who is a qualified accountant, whose job was outsourced to India and is currently washing dishes in restraunt. This is happening right now- and it will accelerate. The populations of India and China are vast- and thanks to China's one child policy each 'little emperor' is the apple of its parents eye and will have no sibling competitors for education funding within the family.

At £22 per hour you earn way to much compared to your Indian or Chinese counterpart, and by your own logic need to work for far less.

This is a race to bottom in terms of labour costs, so don't be too dismissive of those who seek to hold their ground against the tide- it may be futile but at least they've had the guts to take stand- and they deserve some credit for that at least.

[MarkG]

Yes, they are on lots of money because they and their union refuse to eat sh1t.

No, they're on lots of money because:

1. They're the remains of a bloated public-sector company; the really crazy wages and benefits are paid to those who joined before the company was privatised.

2. Various laws prevent BA from just sacking them and hiring cheap Poles instead.

3. BA management have been hoping that the problem would just go away as the old farts retire and new employees are on much less.

I used to know some BA staff in the UK who'd been with the company since it was government-run and the cabin crew pay and benefits were simply insane for what were essentially just waiters with a few elf'n'safety courses. BA has been cruising along on goodwill and inertia from its time as the 'national airline', and the inertia has just about run out while a strike at Christmas will destroy the goodwill; now either they cut their costs to industry norms or they're going bust.

[macca]

Wouldn't you rather there were more jobs paying less with a lower cost of living and housing than having the haves and have-nots?

I think most people would accept low wages if the cost of living was low but we all know that the govt want to screw us all for maximum taxes and lie about real inflation and most businesses want the maximum profit. I blame BA management for putting up their staff wages that high in the first place if they are actually earning way over the average but lets not forget that BA is a luxury airline and charges its customers way above average too so this should reflect in the pay and conditions. Also how long would any of us allow a company to keep cutting pay and at what point do you become a slave? I'm sure that most staff at other airlines want a decent payrise right now as it probably isn't as rosy as most people think. They will probably lose more money due to the strikes than it would cost to keep staff pay the same. If BA are that desperate do the climate a favour and sell some planes.

[Buccaneer]

but lets not forget that BA is a luxury airline

LOL

I love sarcasm

[abharrisson]

Air strike threat to Christmas holidays as 13,000 BA staff poised to vote on 'suicidal' walkout.

Well if they do, then BA is finished this will just be the last straw and BA will probably fall to bits. How can they walk out in the middle of a recession when there are millions looking for jobs, its not like they are underpaid. Will the govt step in, are they able to?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235521/BA-cabin-crew-poised-chaotic-Christmas-strikes.html

British Airways cabin crew are expected to plunge thousands of passengers into Christmas flight chaos by voting today to strike.

The move would deal a heavy blow to the national carrier as it struggles to turn round record losses last year of £401million.

BA's 13,000 cabin crew already earn twice as much as their Virgin Atlantic counterparts.

If, as the Unite union expects, a majority backs a walkout, it will add to the company's financial woes and hand an early Christmas gift to rivals at one of the busiest times of the year.

The BA stoppage could be the first of several in the next month unless a settlement can be reached in the bitter stand-off between the airline and Unite over cuts in jobs and changes to working practices.

The walkouts would see a repeat after the long-haul of the horrific disruption at Heathrow Airport two years ago when fog halted flights, leaving passengers stranded at terminals over Christmas.

People caught out by a strike next week would have little prospect of finding flights with other carriers because of the seasonal rush.

Union chiefs called the strike ballot after months of talks. BA said it still hopes to avoid a walkout - but the talks, which broke down on Friday night, remained stalled last night.

BA's cutbacks include reducing the number of cabin crew on long-haul flights from 15 to 14, about 1,000 voluntary redundancies and 3,000 staff being asked to go part-time.

This is typical union stupidity and arrogance... and I suspect management naivety... having got themselves to a stage (jointly) where their staff are paid much much more than their competitors and have by far better conditions they are now scratching their heads wondering why they are in difficulties now the gravy train has stopped.

management have rightly decided that the only way forwards is to preserve a degree of employment but to cut pay and conditions to save the company.... they have of course tried to do this cack handedly but thats another the matter. The union for their part seem hell bent on playing the role of conductor for the band of the titanic ..... having got to where they are theres really no way forwards other than for the cost base to be restructured and the only they delay the more painful it will get. Even if they do it now, jobs will go and you can expect wages to be cut savagely and/or frozen and conditions and shift patterns to change enormously.... working as BA cabin crew will no longer feel like you are going on a three day vacation to mauritius and are just serving a few drinks along the way, it might actually begin to feel like real work.

[Goat]

Striking will only work for essential, frontline, public sector workers who provide the service at the point of use.

Very few truely essential public sector workers IMO and by and large they're banned from striking by law.

This is my point all along. Striking only works where you are in either a monopoly position (very few) or the public sector, the idea that the private sector can unionise and demand better terms and conditions is a nonsense.

Even then striking only really works where you've got a weak government reliant upon the strikers for their party funding.

Now you see what I see.

Not nice is it? But that's how it'll go.

EDIT The communism, not the starving.

Communism doesn't have to mean death (except in the black and white thinkers' minds on here).

Don't agree, communism has been tried and failed many times and there's no popular support for it in the UK. The general public are already getting sick and tired of a bloated public sector so expect a reversal of this in future years.

Communism can only work in dictatorships and these always lead to mass murder and frequently mass starvation. If you think that turning the UK into a clone of North Korea is a good thing then you'll find yourself in a very small minority.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Goat