zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 7 minutes ago, Insane said: Yes and the Rich are more likely to go elsewhere so we then get nothing from them. The Friends of Boris Johnson are richer than ever. Most of that wealth is concentrated in property - the one thing they assuredly can't take with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutButter Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 14 minutes ago, markyh said: We all know it will be lowered, £2m , then £1m , then they will just never raise it ands let "Fiscal Drag" do it's work. £1m out family would instantly be in it , £2m could come around soon enough, £3m is not out of the question within the next 20-30 years. All this will do is cause a huge upsurge of Trusts for assets over £3m. I don't own it, the Trust does. So just leave the country. When you’re so rich, it makes no difference where you live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Frais Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 minute ago, zugzwang said: You introduce wealth taxes to disincentivise property hoarding, feudal inheritance and financial speculation. You create a free market - free from economic rents and private monopolies - with employment rights and environmental protections enshrined at its heart. You prioritise investment and manufacturing over borrowing and consumption. You stop admitting coolie labour by the plane-load and establish a nationwide program of general needs social housing to fix the acute demand pressure in the private rental sector and restore the historical link between earnings and mortgage affordability. You can do most of that with a land value tax and sack tax collectors and save money on work and buildings. For me if a guy pisses his salary away on drugs and hookers or saves it prudently does not offend me when its the latter. A land value tax is an efficiency and a tax.. the best kind of tax and it also addresses the elephant in the room.... foreign hot money flows into our property market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Insane said: I did not ask for a definition of it I asked the poster how he/she proposed we get there? How do you propose to do it?.......do you think more of what little you have will be taken away from you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, zugzwang said: You introduce wealth taxes to disincentivise property hoarding, feudal inheritance and financial speculation. You create a free market - free from economic rents and private monopolies - with employment rights and environmental protections enshrined at its heart. You prioritise investment and manufacturing over borrowing and consumption. You stop admitting coolie labour by the plane-load and establish a nationwide program of general needs social housing to fix the acute demand pressure in the private rental sector and restore the historical link between earnings and mortgage affordability. But this is the reason why I don't think we will ever get there. You say " You stop admitting coolie labour by the plane-load" The people like Mrs Doyle proposing this more productive happy society are pro mass immigration at any cost anyone not agreeing with them is a Racist and therefore the infighting on this subject will ensure that they don't move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Fromage Frais said: You can do most of that with a land value tax and sack tax collectors and save money on work and buildings. For me if a guy pisses his salary away on drugs and hookers or saves it prudently does not offend me when its the latter. A land value tax is an efficiency and a tax.. the best kind of tax and it also addresses the elephant in the room.... foreign hot money flows into our property market. A land value tax would be the first thing I'd introduce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Shandy Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 15 minutes ago, Insane said: I think we have now reached a point where those taking out are equal to those in the middle paying in. There is little or no difference between them. So we get to the point where those in the middle are better off joining those taking out. Gordon Brown began this push in earnest, with his goal being for most people to be in receipt of some form of Govt "benefit", such that they come to view themselves as dependent upon the state and thus be afraid of voting for anyone who challenges that benefits-dependency model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Frais Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 minute ago, PeanutButter said: So just leave the country. When you’re so rich, it makes no difference where you live. 3 million at 5/6% 180k. year. As rates rise anyone without kids or kids that are old enough will discover there is a big world out there. Will everyone go.... no But xx% might consider it and thats enough to cause real damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, zugzwang said: feudal inheritance Define 'feudal inheritance' please. How does it differ from plain ordinary 'inheritance'? Edited August 12, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The Friends of Boris Johnson are richer than ever. Most of that wealth is concentrated in property - the one thing they assuredly can't take with them. Many Friends of Boris Johnson are still here but will have business interests domiciled elsewhere. How do you know most of their wealth is concentrated in property? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, zugzwang said: A land value tax would be the first thing I'd introduce. And what level would you set it at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Beef Shandy said: Gordon Brown began this push in earnest, with his goal being for most people to be in receipt of some form of Govt "benefit", such that they come to view themselves as dependent upon the state and thus be afraid of voting for anyone who challenges that benefits-dependency model. In work tax credits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, Insane said: Many Friends of Boris Johnson are still here but will have business interests domiciled elsewhere. How do you know most of their wealth is concentrated in property? The UK stock market has done nothing for 25 years while residential and commercial property prices have gone parabolic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, PeanutButter said: So just leave the country. When you’re so rich, it makes no difference where you live. That is what they are shit scared people will do, remove their accumulated wealth from the country or not bring new money into the country.....everything is all about the money honey......the wealthy have choices, the poor tax them, they won't notice so much, and can't do much about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyh Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, PeanutButter said: So just leave the country. When you’re so rich, it makes no difference where you live. It will be assets that drag most people in , and assets are illiquid and not cash. There will be millions of families in the UK who have lots of wealth in assets but not cash to pay higher and higher asset taxes. We are back to the Granny in the £3m house on state pension who is forced to sell her house to pay the evil labour wealth tax. I would choose living Trusts and Crypto to keep excess wealth away for HMRC via Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, zugzwang said: The UK stock market has done nothing for 25 years while residential and commercial property prices have gone parabolic. The dividends on the FTSE 100 have been quite good 5/6% compounded is nothing to sniff at. People still make money by trading shares the base price does not need to keep moving up for rich traders to earn. They can earn on movement up or down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Shandy Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 13 minutes ago, 17 Year Veteran said: "Everything else, including family homes, cars, jewellery, artworks, cash in the bank and investments in stocks and shares would be on the table." Sounds like a boom time for valuers of illiquid assets. Good luck with that. Their idea is to focus on producing an ever smaller pie, for the chiefs to divvy out a chunk of that shrinking pie to the wasters who vote them in, and then hope to keep the farce going for long enough that the chiefs get to live like kings for a while until the whole thing collapses when reality inevitably imposes itself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) I really can't see anything wrong with such a policy... I'm sure the rich can afford it (and if they can't then they shouldn't pay the tax). That said, far better to do this via higher income taxes for higher earners, which was normal not that long ago. The spivs owe their fair share - it's as simple as that... and in Britain's economy it tends to be spivs who get rich... not from their own labour but via speculation. Edited August 12, 2023 by Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Insane said: The dividends on the FTSE 100 have been quite good 5/6% compounded is nothing to sniff at. People still make money by trading shares the base price does not need to keep moving up for rich traders to earn. They can earn on movement up or down. There's £8 trillion of notional worth in the housing market but we'll also impose a Tobin tax on financial speculation to hit the City swillers directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 13 minutes ago, anonguest said: Define 'feudal inheritance' please. How does it differ from plain ordinary 'inheritance'? The principle of inheritance is feudal. 19th century free market economists were viscerally opposed to it - unlike their neoliberal counterparts today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The principle of inheritance is feudal. 19th century free market economists were viscerally opposed to it - unlike their neoliberal counterparts today. Really? Enlighten me further with some links please to back up that claim. In any case, even if true.... so what?! Are you saying we should shape our world according to the mindset of people who lived 200 years ago?! Edited August 12, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The principle of inheritance is feudal. 19th century free market economists were viscerally opposed to it - unlike their neoliberal counterparts today. The concept/acceptance of the idea of being able to pass on worldly goods/property to next of kin or those chosen goes wayyyyy further back than medieval times Inheritance - Wikipedia I'm betting, as I've said many times before from your long posting history, that you are not married and don't have children. Edited August 12, 2023 by anonguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Doyle Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 50 minutes ago, Insane said: I think we have now reached a point where those taking out are equal to those in the middle paying in. There is little or no difference between them. So we get to the point where those in the middle are better off joining those taking out. Yes at some point it has to collapse. No different to someone living well beyond their means on Credit going bankrupt. I know, let's just make shit up and present it as fact! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 Just now, anonguest said: Really? Enlighten me further with some links. In any case, even if true, so what?! Are you saying we should shape our world according to the mindset of people who lived 200 years ago?! Are you serious? Those people include Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, David Ricardo and Jean-Baptiste Say. They and others (including Karl Marx, who gave them their collective title) were instrumental in encouraging the political and social transformation of Europe from monarchy to democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Doyle Posted August 12, 2023 Share Posted August 12, 2023 34 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said: 3 million at 5/6% 180k. year. As rates rise anyone without kids or kids that are old enough will discover there is a big world out there. Will everyone go.... no But xx% might consider it and thats enough to cause real damage You think the super rich spend their money here? They hoard it,offshore it, and pay people so they can pay the least tax possible and not always legally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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