Furlough Latest

[Pop321]

15 hours ago, Postman said:

I am a massive lefty but all this is starting to make me blush. When I imagined a proper 'social safety net', I did not envisage paying people 80% wages to sit in their garden and have  BBQs for over a year.

I was thinking more along the lines of a £20 increase per week in UC, increased investment in careers training, a proper minimum wage, an end to zero hours contracts/exploitative practices and a restoration of dignity and respect to so-called menial/unskilled jobs.

I have worked through both lockdowns, and frankly I've had enough of paying for people who probably don't have a real job any more. No more extensions please. Get them onto UC.

I am a liberal leftie guardian reading terrorist sympathising hypocrite…but really a leftie under it all.

Agree completely Re furlough and have even seen businesses abuse it. One decorator claimed £2.5k a month but had to declare his business had been impacted. He said it had but never explained because he has never been busier. It was a good idea but they splurged too much……

I agree with you and indeed even my inner WOKE cringes at extremes of benefit claimants (before furlough) abusing the system, NHS offering cosmetic services that are not life saving etc.

I don’t want things to be so basic it makes life unbearable for those who cant work or can’t look after themselves but I also don’t want benefits and support to become a viable financial option v working. 

[Si1]

12 minutes ago, Pop321 said:

.

Agree completely Re furlough and have even seen businesses abuse it. One decorator claimed £2.5k a month but had to declare his business had been impacted. He said it had but never explained because he has never been busier. It was a good idea but they splurged too much……

 

 

He was probably in technical breach of the rules then. But what are the chances of being found out and being asked to pay it back?

[msi]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

That's just like the public sector managers on fully paid gardening leave under Gordo. 

cos the Tories stamped that out didn't they

[Si1]

Just now, msi said:

cos the Tories stamped that out didn't they

Well it did reach a spectacular high water mark in the mid 2000s

[scepticus]

2 hours ago, Si1 said:

It was said at the time that Gordon Brown as chancellor was a reflection of the vain hubris of the time rather than a cause of it. I think this rings very true.

Also, further parallel between now and then - remember the tory opposition in the early 2000s - Michael Howard as Tory leader? A very compliant ineffectual opposition indeed. Just like now. Hand in glove. The current shadow chancellor got her big break as an MP in a safe seat by... Gordon Brown.

Somewhat prior to that William Hague had at least attempted to hold the govt to actual account, like Corbyn did a couple of decades later. But of course it amounted to nothing as it was fighting something far bigger. 

Indeed. We are going through a phase of de-globalisation and retrenchment from the economic liberalisation and non-interventionist ideology that characterised the post-war era through to the GFC. There are lots of reasons for this including overpopulation, climate and demography as well as purely economic ones (actually these are all economic drivers anyway).

That's why remainers, small state folks, climate-change deniers, neoliberals masquerading as grown up centrists, and austrian economists are guaranteed to be on the loosing side for the forseeable.

 

[msi]

4 minutes ago, scepticus said:

non-interventionist ideology

Hungary, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi, Israel, and Every part of Africa and South America  disagree.

[scepticus]

1 hour ago, msi said:

Hungary, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi, Israel, and Every part of Africa and South America  disagree.

I meant economic interventionism. I can certainly see the above kind of interventionism continuing or increasing.

[msi]

9 minutes ago, scepticus said:

I meant economic interventionism. I can certainly see the above kind of interventionism continuing or increasing.

The kind where the US destabilises currency and lets the USD become the defacto currency - guess you've never seen that happen in the Latin America?

...or the kind where a country tries to decouple from the USD especially for oil - guess you've never seen any problems there for Libya, Iraq, or Iran there.

....or the kind where the West establishes it's own interests on IP, commercial immunity, and Tax Free trading - tell the Chinese that never happens.

[zugzwang]

15 minutes ago, msi said:

The kind where the US destabilises currency and lets the USD become the defacto currency - guess you've never seen that happen in the Latin America?

...or the kind where a country tries to decouple from the USD especially for oil - guess you've never seen any problems there for Libya, Iraq, or Iran there.

....or the kind where the West establishes it's own interests on IP, commercial immunity, and Tax Free trading - tell the Chinese that never happens.

 

Iran is forbidden to trade with Venezuela according to Uncle Sham.

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/06/pentagon-issues-warning-over-iran-warship-reportedly-headed-venezuela

[scepticus]

4 hours ago, msi said:

The kind where the US destabilises currency and lets the USD become the defacto currency - guess you've never seen that happen in the Latin America?

...or the kind where a country tries to decouple from the USD especially for oil - guess you've never seen any problems there for Libya, Iraq, or Iran there.

....or the kind where the West establishes it's own interests on IP, commercial immunity, and Tax Free trading - tell the Chinese that never happens.

Hah, I meant interventionism by governments in the lives of their own people. I fully expect military interventionism, foreign adventurism and currency manipulation and mercantilism to very much be in evidence in this next phase.

[Will!]

On 10/06/2021 at 15:18, coypondboy said:

you have to pass a medical assessment to get esa (the old dla) so if you can walk forget it they put you on jsa for 6 months then you are buggered if you have any savings or mortgage this did not happen last time in the early 90's recession where you simply went on to long term disbility once the jsa ran out and they payed your mortgage.  If the coming recession is as bad as that one there will be millions of poorer people in trouble.

ESA and DLA/PIP are assessed quite differently.  ESA is assessed on ability to work.  DLA/PIP is assessed on mobility and care needs.  Neither assessment is fit for purpose in my view (as someone who has dealt with a lot of people with brain injuries).

 

[Will!]

On 10/06/2021 at 19:11, Huggy said:

Absolutely!

£5.5k train ticket, about the same in coffees, breakfasts, lunches, team drinks and so on.

Finally, 600 hours saved on the commute is the most important thing for me. That's almost five and a half grand worth of time even if you price it at minimum wage. In my lofty tower, the total savings from everything adds up to several 10s of £k.

And I don't have to be near commuters too. Hate them with a passion.

Financial Times: Go-Ahead says commuting will ‘never be same again’ after pandemic

I'd never underestimate the masochism of the UK commuter, but I know a lot of people who love not giving Southern Rail several £k a year.

[Will!]

On 11/06/2021 at 07:27, Si1 said:

It was said at the time that Gordon Brown as chancellor was a reflection of the vain hubris of the time rather than a cause of it. I think this rings very true.

Also, further parallel between now and then - remember the tory opposition in the early 2000s - Michael Howard as Tory leader? A very compliant ineffectual opposition indeed. Just like now. Hand in glove. The current shadow chancellor got her big break as an MP in a safe seat by... Gordon Brown.

Somewhat prior to that William Hague had at least attempted to hold the govt to actual account, like Corbyn did a couple of decades later. But of course it amounted to nothing as it was fighting something far bigger. 

That reminds me an Adam Curtis film (I forget which one - they're all the same anyway - maybe The Power of Nightmares?) in which he said that in the 1990s the left/right ideological arguments ended and were replaced by a utopian technocracy.  We now knew which policies were correct and what we needed were the most competent managers to carry them out.

In the UK this was 'prudent with a purpose' Gordon Brown and an independent central bank who would use credit, underpinned by tax revenues from a lightly-regulated financial sector, to fund investment in schools & universities ("Education, Education, Education), healthcare ("24 hours to save the NHS") and welfare reform ("Think the unthinkable"), all of which would make the UK more productive.  Until 2007 this appeared to be a great success ("The end of boom and bust") although house prices did seem rather high.

The rest, of course, is history.

[yodigo]

On 10/06/2021 at 18:15, Pmax2020 said:

Most of us have had heard local stories of the systemic abuse of the government hand outs - I’ve seen this first hand myself. A local builders merchant that furloughed staff but had them working behind closed doors on other ‘projects’ all year. There are well-known businessmen where I live that are quite literally bragging about the money they’ve been given and how they’ve enjoyed it. 

Been told about on of the airlines by someone I know who works for them, full time staff sat on furlough, but temps bought in on 6 month contracts and low wages. Suppose it's cheaper than bringing staff off furlough.

[Si1]

4 hours ago, yodigo said:

Been told about on of the airlines by someone I know who works for them, full time staff sat on furlough, but temps bought in on 6 month contracts and low wages. Suppose it's cheaper than bringing staff off furlough.

Is that because airlines have some staff on unusually high legacy wages, or because they can get particularly cheap temp staff right now?

[msi]

On 11/06/2021 at 16:13, scepticus said:

Hah, I meant interventionism by governments in the lives of their own people.

Yes, I suppose you are right...if you ignore the interventionism of Evangelical Christianity into the lives of US people...nor the push for radical secularism in France....nor the intervention of EU wide fealty in Europe...nor the push for anglo-saxon 'market solution' to every societal problem.

[Roman Roady]

Furlough will NOT be extended: Rishi Sunak rejects pleas from businesses and says help scheme will begin to be phased out from July 1 - even though Freedom Day is to be delayed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9682605/Rishi-Sunak-rejects-pleas-businesses-extend-furlough-scheme.html