National "offer 3X Your Salary" Day, 1St Of October....

[canbuywontbuy]

you'll be joining in them and emailing everyone you know?

brilliant, thanks.

No, instead he'll be making comments on HousePriceCrash.co.uk saying why it's better to buy than rent when house prices are at record highs. FFS.

[CyberNat]

No, instead he'll be making comments on HousePriceCrash.co.uk saying why it's better to buy than rent when house prices are at record highs. FFS.

I am only advocating that in Scotland where it is usually cheaper to buy than rent.

[goldbug9999]

Edit : Also, please understand, when the crash comes that we all so dearly want, it will be catastrophic this time, the least of your worries will be cheap houses.

How can the single highest outgoing over most peoples lifetimes ever be "the least of our worries" ?.

[“Nasty Piece of work”]

Unfortunately, making statements like "Everybody knows houses are expensive" reinforces they are the comments of a window licker. There can be few more stupid and plain wrong statements.

[canbuywontbuy]

How can the single highest outgoing over most peoples lifetimes ever be "the least of our worries" ?.

Talk about moral hazard if it happens that way - heads home owners win, tails renters lose.

[CyberNat]

Unfortunately, making statements like "Everybody knows houses are expensive" reinforces they are the comments of a window licker. There can be few more stupid and plain wrong statements.

What? I've never met anyone ever that thinks houses are cheap.

[markyh]

....and they will tell you "no" just as they did me today when I offered just under asking price for a new home.

I've been here a very long time (2003 I think). 12 years waiting to buy a house. I'm not bullish on property and I'm not bearish either.

I have had enough though - this whole debate has consumed YEARS and YEARS of my life and I'm almost certain if I sit it out till 50 (ten years away) I will be at point in my life where house prices will still be unaffordable and on top of that, Banks won't even lend me any money anyway.

I'm done sitting on the sidelines, I'm going for the best fixed rate I can get and my partner and I will throw as much spare capital as we can find each month to bring it down.

Please don't think I'm swiping here, but most of you have been here as long as I have and I'm pretty sure you'll be having these same old conversations in 10 years. Good luck.

Edit : Also, please understand, when the crash comes that we all so dearly want, it will be catastrophic this time, the least of your worries will be cheap houses.

Did you really not see anything worth buying at a big discount in Q3 and Q4 2008? Or even Q1 2009 was possible before rates hit 0.5%. Especially new builds as builders where on there knees this period in 2008/9. As is well documented on here with us, sold 1st 2 bed semi in august 2007 for £194k and went into rented. Because we would have been fooked buying that small a house for that money in 2007 with a small child arrived. We couldn't afford to buy our own house at the price we sold with any future prospect of paying even more to upsize.

Waited and watched locally. 2nd hand and new build. Northern Rock and Lehmans happened, credit crunch hit. Approached and offer on 2nd hands and new builds Easter 2008. Offered £250k on new build five beds that sold for £300k+ in 2006/7, going for £295k in Q1 2008. Got told no way, la gushed out of sales office, maybe £5k discount. Walked away. Offered £250k in summer 2008 when price had been reduced to £275k. No was the answer, we've reduced £20k don't you know. Walked away. Got a call from them in October 2008, do you still want yo buy for £250k? Maybe. What extras are you throwing in for free? Nothing we've reduced the price £45k. Said no again, walked away. Came back early December 2008. Dead, all building stopped, all workers offsite, Taylor Wimpeys stock price down to 13p ( I bought £600 worth!).

Three of the same style of house available as built stock shells , 2 with separate divisions of TW and one with Persimmon. Played them all against each other TW / P / TW. Got the price down to £230k with £10k of extras free. Carpets, flooring, turf, extra built in wardrobe, AEG built in kitchen appliances, outside tap. Extra TV and phone points in all rooms, extra tiling etc etc.

Now at £70-80k less than the 2007 price and only having to borrow an extra £36k to go from a 1980s 2 bed to and 2009 5 bed this was a no brainer.

Now 4-5 beds on our estate our going for £350k to 400k+, this year has gone mental with prices and they are selling. So we are cashing out next spring and borrowing an extra £100k to get a village 4 bed detached with good secondary school catchment for £450k to £500k budget so that when it all goes tits up next 5-10 years we are out in the sticks in the quiet until retirement in 20 years time.

I'm still amazed most people waiting didn't jump on even first time in 2008? That bed I sold for £192k in 2007 was down to £145k in 2008/9.

The window was short in 2008/9 , just 6-9 months, but it certainly was there if you were not holding out for the perfect house for peanuts, choice was plentiful, especially in new builds.

M

[Frugal Git]

What? I've never met anyone ever that thinks houses are cheap.

I've unfortunately met quite a few people who do. They have no concept of money in relation to time to earn it obviously, just a love affair with debt.

Obviously its also frequently relative to their own place..if they're wedded to the arbitrary price they've mentally calculated their place is now 'worth' having 'benefited' from loose lending to others for a decade or so, when they sit in their nominally valued 400k house, 100k for some shitty bedsit seems like chump change.

The crazy bit is these people are often lower earners. And they.might be at that age where their kids are now looking to buy, and they encourage them to 'stretch themselves' because they've repeated the mantra 'houses always go up' to themselves until its their internal anthem.

So that's who sensible people have to compete with, and banks love it.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Snip

Another special flower post.

[Frugal Git]

Did you really not see anything worth buying at a big discount in Q3 and Q4 2008? Or even Q1 2009 was possible before rates hit 0.5%. Especially new builds as builders where on there knees this period in 2008/9. As is well documented on here with us, sold 1st 2 bed semi in august 2007 for £194k and went into rented. Because we would have been fooked buying that small a house for that money in 2007 with a small child arrived. We couldn't afford to buy our own house at the price we sold with any future prospect of paying even more to upsize.

Waited and watched locally. 2nd hand and new build. Northern Rock and Lehmans happened, credit crunch hit. Approached and offer on 2nd hands and new builds Easter 2008. Offered £250k on new build five beds that sold for £300k+ in 2006/7, going for £295k in Q1 2008. Got told no way, la gushed out of sales office, maybe £5k discount. Walked away. Offered £250k in summer 2008 when price had been reduced to £275k. No was the answer, we've reduced £20k don't you know. Walked away. Got a call from them in October 2008, do you still want yo buy for £250k? Maybe. What extras are you throwing in for free? Nothing we've reduced the price £45k. Said no again, walked away. Came back early December 2008. Dead, all building stopped, all workers offsite, Taylor Wimpeys stock price down to 13p ( I bought £600 worth!).

Three of the same style of house available as built stock shells , 2 with separate divisions of TW and one with Persimmon. Played them all against each other TW / P / TW. Got the price down to £230k with £10k of extras free. Carpets, flooring, turf, extra built in wardrobe, AEG built in kitchen appliances, outside tap. Extra TV and phone points in all rooms, extra tiling etc etc.

Now at £70-80k less than the 2007 price and only having to borrow an extra £36k to go from a 1980s 2 bed to and 2009 5 bed this was a no brainer.

Now 4-5 beds on our estate our going for £350k to 400k+, this year has gone mental with prices and they are selling. So we are cashing out next spring and borrowing an extra £100k to get a village 4 bed detached with good secondary school catchment for £450k to £500k budget so that when it all goes tits up next 5-10 years we are out in the sticks in the quiet until retirement in 20 years time.

I'm still amazed most people waiting didn't jump on even first time in 2008? That bed I sold for £192k in 2007 was down to £145k in 2008/9.

The window was short in 2008/9 , just 6-9 months, but it certainly was there if you were not holding out for the perfect house for peanuts, choice was plentiful, especially in new builds.

M

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But i still thought 2008/9 prices offered no value relative to my savings or earnings - and frankly they still wouldn't. For all the crap about wage inflation in the news at the mo, i haven't seen any of it.

That prices round here are 50-60% above 2008 doesn't affect my own opinion on relative value to the reality of earnings round here then and now, so despite the fact that it might look like a mistake, i cannot beat myself up about it because remaining liquid and free still for me is better decision in relation to sleeping at night. The age related wealth distribution of the country is increasingly politically unpalatable, and sooner or later something will be happen to rectify that, as we are already seeing.

If we can have unregulated lending and mass QE asset support because it was politically deemed correct despite it being unthinkably ridiculous, then its reasonable to believe the reverse can happen. All imho.

[“Nasty Piece of work”]

"Expensive" has only been accepted, as immoral, money distant, credit availability has been normalised. It is the total acceptance that property "costs" that can be expressed as a fraction of a million quid, or decades of earnings. It is the "understanding" that offers can be "cheeky", and that getting it for the asking price is a victory. It is repeating that property is expensive because it has been drummed into our heads by various idiots. It is various Space Cadets being supported by ZIRP.

[canbuywontbuy]

Did you really not see anything worth buying at a big discount in Q3 and Q4 2008? Or even Q1 2009 was possible before rates hit 0.5%. Especially new builds as builders where on there knees this period in 2008/9. As is well documented on here with us, sold 1st 2 bed semi in august 2007 for £194k and went into rented. Because we would have been fooked buying that small a house for that money in 2007 with a small child arrived. We couldn't afford to buy our own house at the price we sold with any future prospect of paying even more to upsize.

Waited and watched locally. 2nd hand and new build. Northern Rock and Lehmans happened, credit crunch hit. Approached and offer on 2nd hands and new builds Easter 2008. Offered £250k on new build five beds that sold for £300k+ in 2006/7, going for £295k in Q1 2008. Got told no way, la gushed out of sales office, maybe £5k discount. Walked away. Offered £250k in summer 2008 when price had been reduced to £275k. No was the answer, we've reduced £20k don't you know. Walked away. Got a call from them in October 2008, do you still want yo buy for £250k? Maybe. What extras are you throwing in for free? Nothing we've reduced the price £45k. Said no again, walked away. Came back early December 2008. Dead, all building stopped, all workers offsite, Taylor Wimpeys stock price down to 13p ( I bought £600 worth!).

Three of the same style of house available as built stock shells , 2 with separate divisions of TW and one with Persimmon. Played them all against each other TW / P / TW. Got the price down to £230k with £10k of extras free. Carpets, flooring, turf, extra built in wardrobe, AEG built in kitchen appliances, outside tap. Extra TV and phone points in all rooms, extra tiling etc etc.

Now at £70-80k less than the 2007 price and only having to borrow an extra £36k to go from a 1980s 2 bed to and 2009 5 bed this was a no brainer.

Now 4-5 beds on our estate our going for £350k to 400k+, this year has gone mental with prices and they are selling. So we are cashing out next spring and borrowing an extra £100k to get a village 4 bed detached with good secondary school catchment for £450k to £500k budget so that when it all goes tits up next 5-10 years we are out in the sticks in the quiet until retirement in 20 years time.

I'm still amazed most people waiting didn't jump on even first time in 2008? That bed I sold for £192k in 2007 was down to £145k in 2008/9.

The window was short in 2008/9 , just 6-9 months, but it certainly was there if you were not holding out for the perfect house for peanuts, choice was plentiful, especially in new builds.

M

Emphasis.....mine.

I didn't get the memo unfortunately - the memo that we all had property in 2007 - and bought said property several years before 2007 - so that we could cash in on massive HPI then. Your entire anecdote relies on the reader having bought property well before 2007 for the rest of it to make sense.

Maybe I should pass your anecdote onto 20-somethings so they can slap their knees and say "damn, why didn't we buy property when we were 12 - we could have cashed out massively by 18 years old, and be in a better position now".

Edited August 30, 2015 by canbuywontbuy

[mh0703]

Did you really not see anything worth buying at a big discount in Q3 and Q4 2008? Or even Q1 2009 was possible before rates hit 0.5%. Especially new builds as builders where on there knees this period in 2008/9. As is well documented on here with us, sold 1st 2 bed semi in august 2007 for £194k and went into rented. Because we would have been fooked buying that small a house for that money in 2007 with a small child arrived. We couldn't afford to buy our own house at the price we sold with any future prospect of paying even more to upsize.

Waited and watched locally. 2nd hand and new build. Northern Rock and Lehmans happened, credit crunch hit. Approached and offer on 2nd hands and new builds Easter 2008. Offered £250k on new build five beds that sold for £300k+ in 2006/7, going for £295k in Q1 2008. Got told no way, la gushed out of sales office, maybe £5k discount. Walked away. Offered £250k in summer 2008 when price had been reduced to £275k. No was the answer, we've reduced £20k don't you know. Walked away. Got a call from them in October 2008, do you still want yo buy for £250k? Maybe. What extras are you throwing in for free? Nothing we've reduced the price £45k. Said no again, walked away. Came back early December 2008. Dead, all building stopped, all workers offsite, Taylor Wimpeys stock price down to 13p ( I bought £600 worth!).

Three of the same style of house available as built stock shells , 2 with separate divisions of TW and one with Persimmon. Played them all against each other TW / P / TW. Got the price down to £230k with £10k of extras free. Carpets, flooring, turf, extra built in wardrobe, AEG built in kitchen appliances, outside tap. Extra TV and phone points in all rooms, extra tiling etc etc.

Now at £70-80k less than the 2007 price and only having to borrow an extra £36k to go from a 1980s 2 bed to and 2009 5 bed this was a no brainer.

Now 4-5 beds on our estate our going for £350k to 400k+, this year has gone mental with prices and they are selling. So we are cashing out next spring and borrowing an extra £100k to get a village 4 bed detached with good secondary school catchment for £450k to £500k budget so that when it all goes tits up next 5-10 years we are out in the sticks in the quiet until retirement in 20 years time.

I'm still amazed most people waiting didn't jump on even first time in 2008? That bed I sold for £192k in 2007 was down to £145k in 2008/9.

The window was short in 2008/9 , just 6-9 months, but it certainly was there if you were not holding out for the perfect house for peanuts, choice was plentiful, especially in new builds.

M

Are you talking about buying in the Buckingham Park development in Aylesbury?

Wasn't that rising because of London money flooding into Aylesbury, which has now stopped due to people realising Aylesbury is not that great (to put it mildly).

[canbuywontbuy]

Are you talking about buying in the Buckingham Park development in Aylesbury?

Wasn't that rising because of London money flooding into Aylesbury, which has now stopped due to people realising Aylesbury is not that great (to put it mildly).

• reliant on once-in-a-lifetime massive and un-repeateable HPI from buying property some point in the mid-90s to 2007 period (early 30-somethings and younger need not apply)
• reliant upon selling in 6 to 9 month window to sell
• reliant on specific geographic location

[markyh]

• reliant on once-in-a-lifetime massive and un-repeateable HPI from buying property some point in the mid-90s to 2007 period (early 30-somethings and younger need not apply)
• reliant upon selling in 6 to 9 month window to sell
• reliant on specific geographic location

The land registry had been yoy negative for a while by late 2008. For most of the country too. I believe I explained I was in the hpc brigade (still am as trading up a crash will save me money). Hence I took my family into rented and waited. The crash did come late 2008 but was short lived due to the vi meddling.

Now houses were cheap when I first bought in 1996, I just had no idea at the time. I knew we had had a recession, but being in rented houses since 1991 and coming from a council house had no concept of house prices. I just knew that at £55k for a 2 bed semi with a £50k mortgage , @ 6.99%, it was cheaper p/m to buy than rent. So we bought.

Even today if you can afford the rate and deposit on a 95% mortgage and the monthly repayments are cheaper than renting why wouldn't you buy?

For sure houses were cheap in 1996 as we bought at about 1.5 times joint income but back then the enforced the x 3+1 or 2.5 x joint rule, and all OOs said buying was bad as prices had been falling or flat since 1989.

I am aware it's different now since 2000, like a genie was let out of a bottle. We pay our apprentices £15k FFs, 18 year olds on way over minimum pay, I was only on £7k when I started at 19.

M

[Frugal Git]

The land registry had been yoy negative for a while by late 2008. For most of the country too. I believe I explained I was in the hpc brigade (still am as trading up a crash will save me money). Hence I took my family into rented and waited. The crash did come late 2008 but was short lived due to the vi meddling.

Now houses were cheap when I first bought in 1996, I just had no idea at the time. I knew we had had a recession, but being in rented houses since 1991 and coming from a council house had no concept of house prices. I just knew that at £55k for a 2 bed semi with a £50k mortgage , @ 6.99%, it was cheaper p/m to buy than rent. So we bought.

Even today if you can afford the rate and deposit on a 95% mortgage and the monthly repayments are cheaper than renting why wouldn't you buy?

For sure houses were cheap in 1996 as we bought at about 1.5 times joint income but back then the enforced the x 3+1 or 2.5 x joint rule, and all OOs said buying was bad as prices had been falling or flat since 1989.

I am aware it's different now since 2000, like a genie was let out of a bottle. We pay our apprentices £15k FFs, 18 year olds on way over minimum pay, I was only on £7k when I started at 19.

M

So you bought in 1996. So i should have bought as a teenager on my paper round?

As for apprentices on 15k - you make it sound like its a good wage - it's not - its a living one, I'll grant you, but its no more than that.

When were you 19 on 7k? 1985? 1990? 1995? That makes all the difference to your comparison to 7k. Do you really think a modern day starter should be paid that???

As for the 'why wouldn't i buy if i could afford the monthly payments and they were cheaper then the rental equivalent....opportunity cost. The crushingly massive debt i would take on is real. The cash i would tie up, and lose the ability to be liquid and allocate to whatever i like on is real.

I have changed my mind over the years on this - i used to be frustrated by the prices - now i laugh at them. Go ahead and buy if you want, but there's so many better things to invest defered income into than a liability like a house, especially in the UK where we have very, very loose financial markets that's open to all to play in if you have the inclination.

[canbuywontbuy]

As for the 'why wouldn't i buy if i could afford the monthly payments and they were cheaper then the rental equivalent....opportunity cost. The crushingly massive debt i would take on is real. The cash i would tie up, and lose the ability to be liquid and allocate to whatever i like on is real.

I have changed my mind over the years on this - i used to be frustrated by the prices - now i laugh at them. Go ahead and buy if you want, but there's so many better things to invest defered income into than a liability like a house, especially in the UK where we have very, very loose financial markets that's open to all to play in if you have the inclination.

Spot on (my emphasis). Prices became "too daft" years ago for me, which took the dilemma out of whether to buy or not. If buying a property in the UK meant I could still realise other plans, I'd buy in the UK. However, buying property in the UK is like a "one shot" - it's everything. It's all your savings, plus debt on top. IMO, buying a modest property should not be like that - it's anti-aspiration/ambition (unless your ambition is simply to own a property!). Once you buy property and take out your mega-mortgage, you're essentially f**ked when it comes to your financial freedom - you're on a very narrow track and you could be derailed by one of many things. It also precludes doing so many other things. I have bought - and live in - property abroad. All paid for (coz it was cheap), money in the bank, no daft UK mortgage to worry about. It seems all the intangible things - liquidity, freedom, mobility - they count for zero to many people simply because they can't be measured.

Edited August 30, 2015 by canbuywontbuy

[Frugal Git]

Spot on (my emphasis). Prices became "too daft" years ago for me, which took the dilemma out of whether to buy or not. If buying a property in the UK meant I could still realise other plans, I'd buy in the UK. However, buying property in the UK is like a "one shot" - it's everything. It's all your savings, plus debt on top. IMO, buying a modest property should not be like that - it's anti-aspiration/ambition (unless your ambition is simply to own a property!). Once you buy property and take out your mega-mortgage, you're essentially f**ked when it comes to your financial freedom - you're on a very narrow track and you could be derailed by one of many things. It also precludes doing so many other things. I have bought - and live in - property abroad. All paid for (coz it was cheap), money in the bank, no daft UK mortgage to worry about. It seems all the intangible things - liquidity, freedom, mobility - they count for zero to many people simply because they can't be measured.

Yup. high property prices = anti aspiration. Summed up perfectly. I certainly think there's more to life than ownership of a pile of bricks, and if my choice is only to have that and nothing else, then that is no choice at all.

So many people i know on great salaries sit round eating cardboard sandwiches with a sliver of cheddar because they're either already under the cosh of the debt or 'aspiring' to be under it. When you can't even splurge on a dollop of branstons on 50k+ sterling, what sort of life is that?

Edited August 30, 2015 by Frugal Git

[canbuywontbuy]

Yup. high property prices = anti aspiration. Summed up perfectly. I certainly think there's more to life than ownership of a pile of bricks, and if my choice is only to have that and nothing else, then that is no choice at all.

So many people i know on great salaries sit round eating cardboard sandwiches with a sliver of cheddar because they're either already under the cosh of the debt or 'aspiring' to be under it. When you can't even splurge on a dollop of branstons on 50k+ sterling, what sort of life is that?

That's the choice for most people. That's why the FTB average age is approaching 40 years old. Boiling frogs - little by little, the ambitions of the average person become less and less. Your Branston-eschewing sandwich eaters will even hope that generations after them have it worse than them - it will mean their properties have outpaced wages, and hopefully banks will become even crazier with their lending - that's how the ponzi has to be kept alive.

[Venger]

That's the choice for most people. That's why the FTB average age is approaching 40 years old. Boiling frogs - little by little, the ambitions of the average person become less and less. Your Branston-eschewing sandwich eaters will even hope that generations after them have it worse than them - it will mean their properties have outpaced wages, and hopefully banks will become even crazier with their lending - that's how the ponzi has to be kept alive.

A market can't crash until it's just about pulled in everyone who will/can buy (at ever painfully high prices). So do not expect me to have any sympathy for buyer side of recent times if their ponzi hopes don't continue, if market runs out of able or willing buyers (MMR) / BTL taxation relief changes. Maybe the hpc, if and when it comes in, will be amplified because so many who remain with any savings are anti-aspiration-ed out, and will only view at hard market value.

Buyers in recent times have made their own market decisions, and opposite of my own expecting prices to weaken. They got what they wanted. They're not planning on doing a bail-out for rent I've paid.

All the breakdown excuses about how Krusty is to blame for 2 buyers choosing to take on £375,000 30-year-mortgage for a studio in London. Chronic excuses; just look at the asking price they're asking and buyers seeking to pay. It was the same excuse-fest when buyers were doing the same paying £200,000 for similar studios. It's a market. Not an excuse-fest.

[Dorkins]

I'm planning to continue offering 0x my salary, not interested in promising to pay 4x joint salary plus interest for a tiny brick box in a deflationary environment.

[Assume The Opposite]

Brilliant idea.

As I have said for over a decade now ----- The whole hpi phenomenon exploded on the world when the corrupt moneylenders stopped using the 3 x i/c rule.....

Once they did that --- even those who WANTED to NEVER go above 3 x their i/c were FORCED out of the market/ OR FORCED to commit fraud JUST to buy a roof over their head....

It was all planned by the Banksters --- they profited BILLIONS from it --- and when it all went belly up 2007/8 --- WE BAILED THEM OUT!!!!???????

It was a SAD day when all this happened.... It's been outright FRAUD ever since.....

EVERYONE should REFUSE to pay over 3 x i/c. Sadly -- it is well nigh impossible to get people to understand that - by NOT sticking to this principle -- we have RUINED MILLIONS of decent people's lives.....

SEE ALL BELOW.

Bravo! Nailed it in one! It's also created out of nothing while you slave away for 25 years to pay it off.

[Bland Unsight]

Even today if you can afford the rate and deposit on a 95% mortgage and the monthly repayments are cheaper than renting why wouldn't you buy?

You really have taken your eye off the ball haven't you?

Shit 2 bed slave boxes in my neck of the woods in the South East are being offered (and are selling) at 14x local median earnings. These prices are being set by the buy-to-let gang. I make more than twice local median earnings, but I'd still need to borrow more than 6x my salary if buying and even at 3% (which obviously I wouldn't get on 95% LTV at 7x LTI) the mortgage alone (ignoring service charges) would by 115% of the rent.

In review, provided a bank would lend me more than 6x my salary (they won't) and lend to me at 3% (they won't) what you propose is still impossible for a totally underwhelming new build in East Herts.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Bland Unsight

[Bland Unsight]

I am struggling to find words for how disgusting your post is. Enjoy your expensive house, but your attitude towards others is an absolute disgrace.

I've reported it to the Mods. Probably best if we don't keep re-quoting the explicitly racist element.

[The Moderators]

Thanks for reporting those posts. We have no place for racists on HPC.