Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[Arpeggio]

44 minutes ago, long time lurking said:

I have borrowed nowt ,there was no I in front of my reply but for it to be grammatically correct there should have been a "they" and i have no BTL 

Internet assumption and miscommunication on my part. I already knew you were talking about them and not Borrow To Leach yourself.

[Neverwhere]

46 minutes ago, lastlaugh said:

The CGT rules were explicitely and clearly changed to stop people like Busta doing what he is doing.  The April 2015 cut-off is simply a mechanism to avoid retrospective taxation to individuals who were already non-tax resident.  A can of worms arguably best avoided.  But Busta doesn't fit this category.  Busta is becoming non-resident after April 2015.  It's hard to conceive that they could close the loophole with the intention of leaving a way out for Busta's crew.

Busta's exemption is easy enough to close with a simple rule change that UK tax residency leavers have a CGT event when they leave.  In this instance there won't be a problem with retrospective taxation, the tax was always due and expected.  Busta could get to the end of his five years in exile and find the rules have been changed such that he is back to square one.  Or even worse.

There's also the possibility of having difficulty actually achieving the five years in exile in a European country, given the UK government is intending to withdraw from the EU during that time period. (March 2017 Article 50 notification, two year negotiating time limit, March 2019 exit, assuming no unanimous extension.) I suspect we may end up with countries like Malta operating a pay to stay policy for UK nationals who aren't in local employment. Certainly it's a risk. In such circumstances paying to remain a tax exile could potentially become more expensive than simply paying UK taxes, depending on personal circumstances, but a more urgent consideration would be whether or not such a payment could be met at all, even if it were smaller than the tax bill that would arise on returning to the UK before the five years had fully elapsed.

[spyguy]

2 hours ago, lastlaugh said:

I have some experience of this situation.  I too live in Spain, but my employment is UK based.  I commute to London when I need to. (My personally satisfying solution to London house prices)

From my POV both BU and El Jugador (welcome) are, in their own ways, both right.

It is possible, and indeed easy, to stop being tax resident in the UK.  It is also possible to be tax resident in both the UK and another country (Spain or Malta) at the same time.  The double tax treaty doesn't stop you being tax resident in two places, it only stops you paying the same tax twice.  This is pretty much the situation I am in.  I file two annual tax returns, one to the UK and one to Spain.  Spanish taxes are generally higher than the UK, so that covers both jurisdictions.

I'm stuck in the grey area between being definitely resident and being definitely non-resident.  I would hazard a guess that having built up and be directing and operating a large portfolio of privately held properties from abroad rather than an arms length corporate shareholder puts one in the same grey area.  It's especially risky when it looks and smells like exactly what it is - a Tax Avoidance Scheme.

Not if your assets and income is entirely within the UK.

In your case, I guess you are are earning in he UK via a spanish company?

 

 

[lastlaugh]

17 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Not if your assets and income is entirely within the UK.

In your case, I guess you are are earning in he UK via a spanish company?

 

 

No.  My assets and income are entirely within the UK, for a UK company.  But I live in Spain, which makes me tax-resident in Spain.  Is that what you meant?

[spyguy]

7 minutes ago, lastlaugh said:

No.  My assets and income are entirely within the UK, for a UK company.  But I live in Spain, which makes me tax-resident in Spain.  Is that what you meant?

Are you, as an indivudal, on a UK companies books?

Or do you invoice  via your own Spanish company?

[lastlaugh]

2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Are you, as an indivudal, on a UK companies books?

Or do you invoice  via your own Spanish company?

I am an individual on the payroll of a UK company.  I am choosing to live in Spain instead of, say, Spalding.  It's not unusual in the mainland EU to be living in one country and working in the other.

[spyguy]

1 minute ago, lastlaugh said:

I am an individual on the payroll of a UK company.  I am choosing to live in Spain instead of, say, Spalding.  It's not unusual in the mainland EU to be living in one country and working in the other.

Its not, but then that tends to be a cheap + easy ~1h commute from where you live.

My brother lives in Nland and works in Germany. His  commute is less than an hour by car.

Travelling ~1000 miles is exceptional.

[lastlaugh]

9 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Its not, but then that tends to be a cheap + easy ~1h commute from where you live.

My brother lives in Nland and works in Germany. His  commute is less than an hour by car.

Travelling ~1000 miles is exceptional.

You would be surprised at the number of people commuting to London from Spain.  It involves an easyjet flight once a week, a couple of nights airbnb, and a few days working from home in the sun.  Compare that to the time, cost of a season ticket and horror of commuting from Brighton or further afield.  It's a rational option if you have the flexibility.

Tax is tricky though. Not impossible, just tricky.  And I don't have a large portfolio of UK property and a large CGT liability.

[spyguy]

Just now, lastlaugh said:

You would be surprised at the number of people commuting to London from Spain.  It involves an easyjet flight once a week, a couple of nights airbnb, and a few days working from home in the sun.  Compare that to the time, cost of a season ticket and horror of commuting from Brighton or further afield.  It's a rational option if you have the flexibility.

Tax is tricky though. Not impossible, just tricky.  And I don't have a large portfolio of UK property and a large CGT liability.

Oh I dont doubt that a prebooked flight from Spain is cheaper than a BR return from York to KX.

When I chat to people outside of London, iI hear Oh, its only 90 minute  from London the train.

My normal response is Doncaster is 90 minutes, York is 120m

[Venger]

20 minutes ago, lastlaugh said:

You would be surprised at the number of people commuting to London from Spain.  It involves an easyjet flight once a week, a couple of nights airbnb, and a few days working from home in the sun.  Compare that to the time, cost of a season ticket and horror of commuting from Brighton or further afield.  It's a rational option if you have the flexibility.

Tax is tricky though. Not impossible, just tricky.  And I don't have a large portfolio of UK property and a large CGT liability.

Are you signed up to Nectar points? 

I ripped this out of The Times on Tuesday - turned out bit blurry and I never got around to posting it on source I intended to.  Times quoting BTLelegraph.  Not really o/t but just with the Spain thing.  Have my doubts about the earnings suggested - although a few things are possible in the crazy housing bubble - oldies rattling around in £2m London homes (mega pensions/savings), with spare bedrooms, with an even older parent in situ being cared for. 

[spyguy]

3 hours ago, Venger said:

Are you signed up to Nectar points? 

I ripped this out of The Times on Tuesday - turned out bit blurry and I never got around to posting it on source I intended to.  Times quoting BTLelegraph.  Not really o/t but just with the Spain thing.  Have my doubts about the earnings suggested - although a few things are possible in the crazy housing bubble - oldies rattling around in £2m London homes (mega pensions/savings), with spare bedrooms, with an even older parent in situ being cared for. 

Big doubts about earning - 800/week. Yeh right.

Care assistant stops at NMW +30%

[Dyson Fury]

22 hours ago, Bland Unsight said:

That's f**king legendary that somebody took the time to make that page!

From the edit page:

Quote

Removal from category of "Leeches"[edit]

Absolutely, this article is written from a very negative (and even prejudiced) point of view, and needs comprehensive revision. Actually, a Wikipedia administrator should look into whether the inclusion of any article meets Wikipedia's notability inclusion rules, as the Wilsons are simply ordinary landlords, albeit with a fair number of properties. What is reprehensible is the categorization of this couple as "Leeches" and I have taken the liberty of removing them from this category, as it is blatant bigotry

 

You left out the next bit, which I found even funnier - this dates from 2009;

Quote

Lack of neutrality[edit]

This article is clearly written from a negative point of view. It points out that their worth does not take into account their debt; this is the same for everyone. Richard Branson has more debt than cash, many "rich" people do. It also refers to their recently announced Abmortgage arrears but not the reason for the arrears as explained by the individuals themselves. Furthermore, the article is being changed by people at that well-known hotbed of unbiased, reasoned debate, housepricecrash.co.uk:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2009/11/blog-a-whole-wiki-page-devoted-to-our-face-btl-couple-26429.php

So don't trust this article until some grown ups with no vested interest, bias or axe to grind get involved. 86.17.211.148 (talk) 21:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

 

[Dyson Fury]

This was in yesterday's paper.  They raise money, on a peer-to-peer platform and through mini-bonds (ie fixed-term bonds not tradeable on an exchange until the redemption date), to lend to  BTLers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/bonds/mini-bond-firm-may-not-survive-auditor-warns/

To be fair, the man Dyson himself had his doubts when the bond was issued back in 2014;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/bonds/11005195/What-lies-behind-this-eye-catching-7pc-savings-bond.html

Quote

your “bond” would be a speculative investment in a property loans business that has just one year’s history of trading.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Dyson Fury
added the quote

[Jugador]

20 hours ago, Phil321 said:

My brother sold his modest 3 bed semi in North London for 20x his income and moved back to North Yorkshire. He now sits in more cash than Al Capone but intends to buy a home.  He relies on my knowledge (30 years) of housing and he is also qualified economist. 12 months on he still hasn't bought, we both strongly expect a significant drop of house prices over the next few years because the market has been frothed up by debt, low rates and BTL'ers who are paying prices based on monthly costs not on true value. 

Once the BTL'ers wobble (and I see that happening) and real people who work pay for these houses are relied upon to determine 'price' - then a correction is coming. And if they rely on old style investors then they need to plummet before we hit proper wholesale value. 

Any 22% gain over the past few years is defying gravity in a low yield low rate environment. 

Looks like a bubble and feels like a bubble. 

Me, definitely selling and encouraging anyone asking..... to do the same. 

But if you are trolling then suggest you just rent it out then you can tell people about it at dinner parties. ?

Well yes I could do the dinner parties thing but it's never appealed to me, i have been the one pointing out that we will always need somewhere to live in so the value of our one property was always relative and therefore the value of it pretty much irrelevant. Going the BTL empire route is a very different thing, but honestly, it's not the moral questions that prevented me, it's the fact that I'd be a landlord and have to deal with tenants, it really holds no appeal whatever the benefits.

I'm like you, I strongly expect a significant drop for all the same reasons, but I expected it years ago and it never came to pass. And given that a drop really wouldn't have a great impact in me, whether I stay in or out of the market isn't such a big weight in the decision.

Being new here, I do wonder just what a HPC means to most people here. When does a correction become a crash. Is a correction 25% and a crash 50%, for example.

And I'll say this only once more, I am not trolling, I am only interested in discussions about the outlook for the UK property market and the moral and financial positions influencing the decisions we all make.

[Jugador]

11 hours ago, lastlaugh said:

I have some experience of this situation.  I too live in Spain, but my employment is UK based.  I commute to London when I need to. (My personally satisfying solution to London house prices)

From my POV both BU and El Jugador (welcome) are, in their own ways, both right.

It is possible, and indeed easy, to stop being tax resident in the UK.  It is also possible to be tax resident in both the UK and another country (Spain or Malta) at the same time.  The double tax treaty doesn't stop you being tax resident in two places, it only stops you paying the same tax twice.  This is pretty much the situation I am in.  I file two annual tax returns, one to the UK and one to Spain.  Spanish taxes are generally higher than the UK, so that covers both jurisdictions.

I'm stuck in the grey area between being definitely resident and being definitely non-resident.  I would hazard a guess that having built up and be directing and operating a large portfolio of privately held properties from abroad rather than an arms length corporate shareholder puts one in the same grey area.  It's especially risky when it looks and smells like exactly what it is - a Tax Avoidance Scheme.

Thank you. My only point when entering this thread was to say that it is in fact very easy to "up and become resident (tax resident) in [name your EU country of your choice]".  And in fact it is very hard not to. Spain, for example, should you go on a two week package holiday to Torremolinos and string it out to seven months, will claim that you are resident and tax resident and will take their share of your income from world wide assets which they will insist you declare. The UK [and thereby HRMC] will agree to this as they have signed-up to a double taxation agreement

Armchair experts who have only ever lived in the UK and who have never dealt with the paperwork and bureaucracy, and those with a bee in their bonnet about ex breakdancers, will derail the discussion, but that fact remains.... a fact. 

[Jugador]

 

10 hours ago, spyguy said:

Not if your assets and income is entirely within the UK.

In your case, I guess you are are earning in he UK via a spanish company?

 

 

 

9 hours ago, lastlaugh said:

No.  My assets and income are entirely within the UK, for a UK company.  But I live in Spain, which makes me tax-resident in Spain.  Is that what you meant?

Guys, please, this was the only point I was making. I posted here only to make this point to help with understanding the issue. I was not trolling.

My first post was to point out that you can become resident and tax resident in another country very easily.

Does it mean that HRMC won't come after you for tax on rental income? No. Does it mean they won't want to get you for CGT? No.

But if you move to another country will they want to claim your tax on your income from world wide assets and work, oh yes they certainly will, and IME they're every bit as determined as the HRMC. That was it, my one point.

 

[Lavalas]

Forget it

Edited January 8, 2017 by Lavalas
Forget it

[Pop321]

1 hour ago, Lavalas said:

Forget it

Indeed. 

Found myself preaching to an investor  in the real world never mind the pretend forum world....they are moving properties to limited company and could not get their head round  selling, even when we agreed prices will drop. Said it before...118'ers like a hobbit grasping at the precious ring.

0.25% base rate makes some feel invincible. And that will be their undoing.

[spyguy]

7 hours ago, Jugador said:

 

 

Guys, please, this was the only point I was making. I posted here only to make this point to help with understanding the issue. I was not trolling.

My first post was to point out that you can become resident and tax resident in another country very easily.

Does it mean that HRMC won't come after you for tax on rental income? No. Does it mean they won't want to get you for CGT? No.

But if you move to another country will they want to claim your tax on your income from world wide assets and work, oh yes they certainly will, and IME they're every bit as determined as the HRMC. That was it, my one point.

 

Its complex.

The above case is probably simple as its earned income, with the wages being taxed in the UK. I dont think the HMRC are unahppy with that - payroll taxes will be paid.

Busta case is nuts as he's earning cash from UK based assets. He'll also fail to prove he's made a break with the UK by having all his income

HMRC will have problems with this as Busta is avoiding tax..

[hi5lo5]

http://www.propertytribes.com/help-section-24-conundrum-t-127627989.html#pid275797

The moment you realise you can't get someone pay for your IO mortgage any more...

 

https://giphy.com/gifs/ZGZnO83kx04M0

Edited January 9, 2017 by hi5lo5

[lastlaugh]

3 hours ago, spyguy said:

Its complex.

The above case is probably simple as its earned income, with the wages being taxed in the UK. I dont think the HMRC are unahppy with that - payroll taxes will be paid.

Busta case is nuts as he's earning cash from UK based assets. He'll also fail to prove he's made a break with the UK by having all his income

HMRC will have problems with this as Busta is avoiding tax..

You might be interested to learn that I'm not taxed on the payroll anymore.  (Google "PAYE Section 690" if you want to know more about the process)  The Double Tax Treaty ensures I pay no UK tax because I pay Spanish tax instead. (Although a quirk of the system means I pay UK NI)  I'm very happy to pay Spanish taxes because the system provides a good choice of quality rental accommodation, with long term secure tenancies, a right to change the kitchen, never mind paint the walls, even a right to buy.  And good schools and healthcare for my kids.

I'm a middle manager in a UK logistics firm, a job that supposedly cannot be outsourced.  But, if you think about it, I've outsourced myself.  I pay my taxes and spend my money almose entirely in another country.  My lifestyle choice is an extra chocolate chip in the UK trade deficit and balance of payment problem cookie.

One might say, "so what, you still can't outsource unskilled work like social care.  The elderly will still need looking after.  Carers will need somewhere to live.  They're not building land anymore.  HPI forever, etc."

Which kind of brings me to Venger's post:

20 hours ago, Venger said:

Are you signed up to Nectar points? 

I ripped this out of The Times on Tuesday - turned out bit blurry and I never got around to posting it on source I intended to.  Times quoting BTLelegraph.  Not really o/t but just with the Spain thing.  Have my doubts about the earnings suggested - although a few things are possible in the crazy housing bubble - oldies rattling around in £2m London homes (mega pensions/savings), with spare bedrooms, with an even older parent in situ being cared for. 

Thanks for posting that, Venger.  You've reminded me of a lady I met last year on a language course.  A Czech lady, living in Spain, but working as a carer in London.  She works 2-weeks on, 2-weeks off, and it's a live-in arrangement in London, which obviously reduces her costs to next to nothing.  I don't know how much she gets paid, but presumably enough to live a pleasant lifestyle a few blocks from the Med.  

I must admit to being a bit surprised that she could make that kind of job work, but reading that article it is obviously much more widespread than I imagined.  But now I think about it, then why not?  There are loads of jobs which require an "offshore" lifestyle. Working solidly for a days or weeks at a time, before returning home to a more relaxed home environment.  Why shouldn't the London service sector evolve into this style of working.

I'm doing it, social carers are doing it.  There are alternatives to sky high rents, the labour market will find a way.  And if Busta can find a way out of paying his taxes he still needs Rental Price Increase forever, to get HPI forever.

12 hours ago, Jugador said:

Thank you. My only point when entering this thread was to say that it is in fact very easy to "up and become resident (tax resident) in [name your EU country of your choice]".  And in fact it is very hard not to. Spain, for example, should you go on a two week package holiday to Torremolinos and string it out to seven months, will claim that you are resident and tax resident and will take their share of your income from world wide assets which they will insist you declare. The UK [and thereby HRMC] will agree to this as they have signed-up to a double taxation agreement

Armchair experts who have only ever lived in the UK and who have never dealt with the paperwork and bureaucracy, and those with a bee in their bonnet about ex breakdancers, will derail the discussion, but that fact remains.... a fact. 

I understand you are, as an expat landlord, on here to get some alternative opinion on the UK property market.  You've come to a great place.  I highly recommend a book called "Goodbye to BTL, And All That".  Available for a tiny fee as an e-book on the Amazon bookstore.  It's a well researched, and occassionally witty, account of where we're at.  A remarkable read for even the most slovenly armchair expert!

[Jugador]

5 minutes ago, lastlaugh said:

I understand you are, as an expat landlord, on here to get some alternative opinion on the UK property market.  You've come to a great place.  I highly recommend a book called "Goodbye to BTL, And All That".  Available for a tiny fee as an e-book on the Amazon bookstore.  It's a well researched, and occassionally witty, account of where we're at.  A remarkable read for even the most slovenly armchair expert!

If I become a LL it'll be reluctantly and at this point it's still an *if*. Thanks for the welcome and the book tip, and for the "El" in front of my name... that language course was obviously Spanish, good luck with that.

Having read more of it in the last few days, this does seem like a great place.

[hi5lo5]

Negative equity with No Consent to Let. Intresting

https://www.property118.com/birmingham-midshires-consent-let-negative-equity/93717/

 

Another London LL is being bitten by PRA rules. 

https://www.property118.com/excessive-rental-income-demanded-btl-loan-2017-new-normal/93710/

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by hi5lo5

[Patient London FTB]

16 minutes ago, hi5lo5 said:

Another London LL is being bitten by PRA rules. 

https://www.property118.com/excessive-rental-income-demanded-btl-loan-2017-new-normal/93710/

 

And it still doesn't occur to them to think it's the price of the property that's out of whack, not the amount they can borrow

[Ah-so]

1 hour ago, Patient London FTB said:

And it still doesn't occur to them to think it's the price of the property that's out of whack, not the amount they can borrow

When it is yielding 3.3%, you would hope that the question would cross their minds.