Qe And Greek' Austerity'

[wonderpup]

The Greeks are being told-or more accurately threatened- that if they fail in future to stick to the prescribed austerity medicine they will be excluded from the trillion Euro giveaway currently being organised for the more prosperous Euro zone nations in the form of QE- that is a Trillion Euros manufactured from thin air.

But as an attempt to influence the outcome of the elections in Greece it sends a rather odd message- what the Germans- via their proxy in the ECB- seem to be saying here is that they place so much value on the Euro in the form of a debt obligation owed by the Greeks to their creditors that they will continue to insist that the Greek people suffer the pain of paying back that debt via crippling taxes and cuts to welfare ect despite the ongoing hardship this is causing.

But the carrot they offer in return for this hardship is the opportunity to perhaps in the future gain access to another form of Euro- this being the Euro's that will shortly spew forth in their billions from the ECB.

OK- so you are a Greek pleb struggling to stay afloat in a disintegrating economy while being hounded for more and more tax to pay off that oh so important Euro denominated national debt- and Angela Merkel's message for you is this- you will continue to struggle and be hounded as far into the future as you can imagine.

Why? In order to repay a debt in a currency that the ECB has just declared it can create-from nothing- to the tune of a TRILLION Euros.

Now- of course- the bankers will tell you that QE is not really 'printing money' and will offer much sophistry to explain why this is so.

But, from the viewpoint of the Greek man in the street, how does this appear?- on the one hand he's being told that Euro's are so important that his kids must go hungry to ensure his countries euro denominated debt gets repaid- while on the other hand the people who are telling him this are now casually creating a Trillion euro's and giving them to the Bankers and their friends.

If I were that Greek man in the street this would really piss me off, and if anything might make me more likely to vote for the party that at least seems prepared to take on the Germans and maybe get a better settlement than the one described above.

So if the timing of the ECB's QE was in any way an attempt to shift voting intentions in Greece I suspect they may have done so in the 'wrong' direction from the point of view of those doing the manipulating.

Edited January 23, 2015 by wonderpup

[dances with sheeple]

The Greeks are being told-or more accurately threatened- that if they fail in future to stick to the prescribed austerity medicine they will be excluded from the trillion Euro giveaway currently being organised for the more prosperous Euro zone nations in the form of QE- that is a Trillion Euros manufactured from thin air.

But as an attempt to influence the outcome of the elections in Greece it sends a rather odd message- what the Germans- via their proxy in the ECB- seem to be saying here is that they place so much value on the Euro in the form of a debt obligation owed by the Greeks to their creditors that they will continue to insist that the Greek people suffer the pain of paying back that debt via crippling taxes and cuts to welfare ect despite the ongoing hardship this is causing.

But the carrot they offer in return for this hardship is the opportunity to perhaps in the future gain access to another form of Euro- this being the Euro's that will shortly spew forth in their billions from the ECB.

OK- so you are a Greek pleb struggling to stay afloat in a disintegrating economy while being hounded for more and more tax to pay off that oh so important Euro denominated national debt- and Angela Merkel's message for you is this- you will continue to struggle and be hounded as far into the future as you can imagine.

Why? In order to repay a debt in a currency that the ECB has just declared it can create-from nothing- to the tune of a TRILLION Euros.

Now- of course- the bankers will tell you that QE is not really 'printing money' and will offer much sophistry to explain why this is so.

But, from the viewpoint of the Greek man in the street, how does this appear?- on the one hand he's being told that Euro's are so important that his kids must go hungry to ensure his countries euro denominated debt gets repaid- while on the other hand the people who are telling him this are now casually creating a Trillion euro's and giving them to the Bankers and their friends.

If I were that Greek man in the street this would really piss me off, and if anything might make me more likely to vote for the party that at least seems prepared to take on the Germans and maybe get a better settlement than the one described above.

So if the timing of the ECB's QE was in any way an attempt to shift voting intentions in Greece I suspect they may have done so in the 'wrong' direction from the point of view of those doing the manipulating.

Good post. Just saw a section on SKY news about Greece, one guy`s mother died because their power was cut off, and her life support machine couldn`t run, the bill was 800 euros. This guy and thousands like him will be voting for Germany and the rest of the "Elite" club to do one IMO.

[dances with sheeple]

Qe also makes the average 800k I.O mortgage look a bit pointless as well?

[XswampyX]

I had the same thought when over here they printed £350 billion, and gave it away to their mates. It makes my/our struggle in life look pointless....

Make of that, what you will.

[dances with sheeple]

I had the same thought when over here they printed £350 billion, and gave it away to their mates. It makes my/our struggle in life look pointless....

Make of that, what you will.

It diminishes belief in the actual value of money and assets for me, so like I say big I.O on multiple 100`s of K`s for a house would be making me think of posting the keys and getting on a flight to somewhere, but money is still an exchange tool so my new "value" is how many years could I pay my way without actually doing paid work. This at least gives me a reference point in a sea of large numbers and total madness.

[interestrateripoff]

Amazing the Greeks have to pay back the money and at the same time seen the ECB crank up the printing press.

[Executive Sadman]

Do they still have a lower retirement age in Greece than Germany?!

[billybong]

Greece has to believe in sound money principles whilst the eurozone printing press runs at full speed. Of course they're far from blameless but so are the rest. To rub it in one of the things that's said to have helped to lead to World War 2 (Germany's Weimar money printing wheelbarrow economy) and the invasion and occupation of Greece by Germany (and Italy) is now being presented to Greece as a solution if they do as they're told.

Then to rub it in a bit more they have to listen to the UK Chancellor bragging and lecturing about the UK economy setting an example when it's an economy based on money printing and debt at a similar level to the Japanese.

Edited January 23, 2015 by billybong

[Executive Sadman]

Greece has to believe in sound money principles whilst the eurozone printing press runs at full speed. Of course they're far from blameless but so are the rest. To rub it in one of the things that's said to have helped to lead to World War 2 (Germany's Weimar money printing wheelbarrow economy) and the invasion and occupation of Greece by Germany (and Italy) is now being presented to Greece as a solution if they do as they're told.

Then to rub it in a bit more they have to listen to the UK Chancellor bragging and lecturing about the UK economy setting an example when it's an economy based on money printing and debt at a similar level to the Japanese.

My guess is in 50 years time, Germany will still be owned by germans.

England will be owned by a mix of Arabs, Russians, and Chinese.

Thats the real prize. Living standards might be no lower here today than germany. But tomorrow we will be beholden to foreigners, tenants in our own land.

Kind of ironic, when the Germanys are supposed to be the renters, we're supposed to be the shop keepers and home owners.

[jiltedjen]

Everything we knew and what we believed in and the morals underpinning those beliefs went completely to the wall in the shadow of the financial crisis, and more importantly afterwards with the bailouts.

Not only did it destroy our simple beliefs about money (never gave it a thought before), whether debts should be repaid, who are the bad guys (the debtor or the upright mercantilist), the rights and wrongs of wage levels and the distribution of wealth, the political class and the entire 'system' underpinned with banks.

+1 absolutely superb post

[The Masked Tulip]

I think the Greeks will be let down by their new government.

[Bill D'arblay]

I think the Greeks will be let down by their new government.

If they are 'let down' the government won't last more than 6 months and they may lose more than their jobs.

[Blod]

The ECB's timing couldn't be worst.

I'd love to know how the Greek media will spin this. Whether this will have any bearing on the result depends on actually how badly the average Greek voter is finding their own personal economic outlook.

We had QE and yet our media seemed failed to point out the link to the deficit and the "cuts".

[spyguy]

The Greeks have let themselves down.

I would not believe a fraction of the stories coming out of that country.

Greeks are corrupt and lazy to the core. They elect lazy and corrupt governments which blow up in their faces.

[spyguy]

There was a piece on the Radio with John Humpreys, his son, Christopher, and Greek wife. The son + family live in Greece.

There's been a number of articles over the years - post falling to bits - about 'My house in Greece, etc etc etc' 'My love of Greece/Athens etc etc'

Here's one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211358/Our-big-fat-Greek-adventure-When-John-Humphrys-son-persuaded-build-holiday-home-sounded-simple.html

The DIL is a lawyer. The son's a muscian. Just what Greece needs - holiday homes, lawyers + Cello player.

There is a very noticable trait about countries that produce loads of lawyers with nothing to law over.

Southern Europe is bad.

Its not like they are good lawyers, rather than its a cheap, development tick box - x% of peopel going to University, so pretendto teach law.

[Roman Roady]

The ECB's timing couldn't be worst.

Or it couldn't be better, depending on what outcome is required.

It looks like the Greek people are being deliberately goaded just before their elections.

Perhaps someone wants a Greek default and exit...as an excuse to bring the whole thing to an end.

Perhaps a country that has used the weaker Euro to pay for re-unification via cheaper exports and now sees that there may be a bigger opportunity with the BRICS???

Maybe this is what the Swiss saw??

[winkie]

Mainly agree, but there are two sides to every story.....who signed them up? Who gave them the money?.....who makes from lending sub prime?..... What are/were the risks of a default in the EZ?.......who would lose the most from them leaving the EZ?

[Roman Roady]

Well all I can see is that there would be considerable political fallout from any Euro exit. Therefore those who want it will not want the blame.

[crashmonitor]

The Greeks have let themselves down.

I would not believe a fraction of the stories coming out of that country.

Greeks are corrupt and lazy to the core. They elect lazy and corrupt governments which blow up in their faces.

Possibly Syriza will not get the chance to let the country down due to the electoral arithmetic.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150123/1017287805.html

But if they go down some Peronist route of default and spend then you only have to look to Zimbabwe or Argentina to see the consequences.

Induging the entitled masses fantasy of the Magic Money Tree will always end in tears.

Edited January 24, 2015 by crashmonitor

[billybong]

A lot of the goading and threats about the debt directed at the likes of Greece could easily be a ploy in the eu drive towards harmonisation of tax and sovereignty etc. The debts to be converted into a form of dole benefit that doesn't have to be repaid if Greece agrees to closer ties and converts it's own sovereignty into to eu sovereignty completely ruled from the centre.

If not then Greece will have no choice but to exit the euro and effectively default and the sooner the better.

Edited January 24, 2015 by billybong

[Blod]

Well all I can see is that there would be considerable political fallout from any Euro exit. Therefore those who want it will not want the blame.

There is fallout what ever happens. If the ECB do buy any Greek debt then the Germans will be furious.

So whether they stay in or leave there will be a high cost.

As we all know there are many other countries in the the EU that for political reasons would welcome a way to wriggle out of austerity.

[crashmonitor]

A lot of the goading and threats about the debt directed at the likes of Greece could easily be a ploy in the eu drive towards harmonisation of tax and sovereignty etc. The debts to be converted into a form of dole benefit that doesn't have to be repaid if Greece agrees to closer ties and converts it's own sovereignty into to eu sovereignty completely ruled from the centre.

If not then Greece will have no choice but to exit the euro and effectively default and the sooner the better.

Better for who. I can see a complete collapse in Greek assets and finally a reset for the younger generation. Meanwhile any pensioners voting for Syriza would be turkeys voting for Christmas. It will no longer be about hair cuts on state pensions but whether there is a pension left in two years time.

[long time lurking]

Better for who. I can see a complete collapse in Greek assets and finally a reset for the younger generation. Meanwhile any pensioners voting for Syriza would be turkeys voting for Christmas. It will no longer be about hair cuts on state pensions but whether there is a pension left in two years time.

I`m no expert but have heard all the same arguments and possible out comes when Iceland was on the verge of default ...they defaulted and are doing ok Greece is a much bigger deal, from where i'm standing they have two choices one is years if not decades of moderate pain the other is massive pain for a short period

Which ever route they choose its going to be painful they have always been an economic basket case and should never have been part of the EU

[billybong]

Better for who. I can see a complete collapse in Greek assets and finally a reset for the younger generation. Meanwhile any pensioners voting for Syriza would be turkeys voting for Christmas. It will no longer be about hair cuts on state pensions but whether there is a pension left in two years time.

If they decided to exit they wouldn't necessarily be the turkeys depending on how any restructuring is structured. However if Greek pensioners decide that it's against their interests then they have the opportunity to vote accordingly on Sunday. It might turn out that the eu demands aren't a negotiating ploy and they still have to pay up for the debt in full - and they still end up losing their sovereignty being ruled from the centre.

If the vote is in favour of Syriza it would be best for Greece not to drag things out any longer than necessary.

Edited January 24, 2015 by billybong

[crashmonitor]

I`m no expert but have heard all the same arguments and possible out comes when Iceland was on the verge of default ...they defaulted and are doing ok Greece is a much bigger deal, from where i'm standing they have two choices one is years if not decades of moderate pain the other is massive pain for a short period

Which ever route they choose its going to be painful they have always been an economic basket case and should never have been part of the EU

Demographics are different...Greece 9.8% males 15-24....Iceland 15.4%.

You are comparing a young dynamic populace to one that is obsessed with welfare and benefits and believes in the Magic money tree and that it is all paid for. It isn't and they would go down.

Edited January 24, 2015 by crashmonitor