StainlessSteelCat Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I agree with all that - 'middle class' friends back in the UK are always commenting on how 'lucky' we are in our lifestyle in HK. Well, no, it's that your own costs have been increasing year on year with no payrises and tax increases, and a big part of that is the huge mortgages you lot took on in the past decade, whereas we've dodged that bullet by moving overseas to follow work and pay increases. I have several very good friends who I half expect to need financial help in the next five years. Not sure what I'll do if they ask me. From now on subtly talk down your wealth, job prospects and HK economy in their company - and look sympathetic when they mention their woes as if you are also struggling. If you can avoid it, never help out a friend financially as it will change the dynamic and they may start to resent you for it. Try to avoid any conspicuous consumption too. For example, we've never had a car. That instantly marks you as poor in most people's eyes. I think our neighbours were rather shocked when installed solar panels judging by the comments. But I think they somehow have the impression we are using some kind of rent a roof scheme though. Also mostly out of habit (having grown up poor), I am still wearing 20 year old waterproofs, regularly shopping for reduced items and lugging them home on the bike. That said, if a friend or family member was genuinely struggling e.g. due to loss of job/illness/death - I would help out (and I regularly bung my parents a few quid for a holiday or so). Personally, I don't see much evidence of the middle classes struggling around here - but most of them around here are rather older than me and should be sitting pretty on their paid off mortgages, notional HPI gains and public sector jobs/pensions. I do see those who have families economising e.g. telling me in whispered voices they've started shopping at Lidl rather than Waitrose. I smile and tell them I've been going for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Household debt hasn't come down as far as in the US precisely because Osborne didn't spend enough to enable private sector deleveraging which in turn has lowered tax receipts etc etc. There's nothing at all surprising about that. There was more than enough money being spent, just on the wrong things - the private sector cant deleverage when living costs (housing in particular) are rising. Gov spending should focus on things with an economic yield, social housing, infratructure etc rather than non-jobs, stimulus, subsidies, bailouts etc. Its the only way to break the downwards spiral. More of the wrong sort of spending just digs us into a deeper hole. You cant turn around an economy in a sustainable way purely by a blind cash injection because you just reinforce the complacency, malivestment and inefficiency that put you in a recession in the first place. And thats not even considering the extra debt servicing costs. Edited November 7, 2014 by goldbug9999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Unfortunately the middle class have lost the art of the flaneur....the urban stroller who enjoys life for free. More like an expensive trip to Harvester in the four by four and paying a tenner to park....there lies the cash crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 There was more than enough money being spent, just on the wrong things - the private sector cant deleverage when living costs (housing in particular) are rising. Gov spending should focus on things with an economic yield, social housing, infratructure etc rather than non-jobs, stimulus, subsidies, bailouts etc. Its the only way to break the downwards spiral. More of the wrong sort of spending just digs us into a deeper hole. You cant turn around an economy in a sustainable way purely by a blind cash injection because you just reinforce the complacency, malivestment and inefficiency that put you in a recession in the first place. And thats not even considering the extra debt servicing costs. Except it worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 From now on subtly talk down your wealth, job prospects and HK economy in their company - and look sympathetic when they mention their woes as if you are also struggling. If you can avoid it, never help out a friend financially as it will change the dynamic and they may start to resent you for it. Try to avoid any conspicuous consumption too. For example, we've never had a car. That instantly marks you as poor in most people's eyes. I think our neighbours were rather shocked when installed solar panels judging by the comments. But I think they somehow have the impression we are using some kind of rent a roof scheme though. Also mostly out of habit (having grown up poor), I am still wearing 20 year old waterproofs, regularly shopping for reduced items and lugging them home on the bike. That said, if a friend or family member was genuinely struggling e.g. due to loss of job/illness/death - I would help out (and I regularly bung my parents a few quid for a holiday or so). Personally, I don't see much evidence of the middle classes struggling around here - but most of them around here are rather older than me and should be sitting pretty on their paid off mortgages, notional HPI gains and public sector jobs/pensions. I do see those who have families economising e.g. telling me in whispered voices they've started shopping at Lidl rather than Waitrose. I smile and tell them I've been going for years. Very wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Except it worked I'm going to keep a bookmart to this post, should come in handy in a couple of years when it all unravels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted November 7, 2014 Author Share Posted November 7, 2014 Try to avoid any conspicuous consumption too. For example, we've never had a car. That instantly marks you as poor in most people's eyes. I think our neighbours were rather shocked when installed solar panels judging by the comments. But I think they somehow have the impression we are using some kind of rent a roof scheme though. Also mostly out of habit (having grown up poor), I am still wearing 20 year old waterproofs, regularly shopping for reduced items and lugging them home on the bike. My mum (late-60s) goes 'Oh, Mr XYZ has a nice car. He most be doing well.' Whereas I tend to judge cars as money pits. In the old days you spent a fortune on maintenance. These days you spent a fortune on finance just leasing the car. The days of having a fully expensed company car are long gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Canadian Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 People do seem to have very different views of what financial success looks like. For me it would be to achieve a situation where we could continue our happy, but modest lifestyle indefinitely even if both and I my wife weren't working. This would mean more time to do things that are "fun and free/cheap" - ie. walk in the hills, read, spend time with friends and family, do evening classes, volunteer for worthwhile causes etc. For others it seems to be having to be having the biggest house/best car/most lavish holidays while still working ones nuts off and being 1 month away from financial meltdown. How they cope with the stress I really don't know. I really don't mind their choice, but I do resent my savings being crushed to bail them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 People do seem to have very different views of what financial success looks like. For me it would be to achieve a situation where we could continue our happy, but modest lifestyle indefinitely even if both and I my wife weren't working. This would mean more time to do things that are "fun and free/cheap" - ie. walk in the hills, read, spend time with friends and family, do evening classes, volunteer for worthwhile causes etc. For others it seems to be having to be having the biggest house/best car/most lavish holidays while still working ones nuts off and being 1 month away from financial meltdown. How they cope with the stress I really don't know. I really don't mind their choice, but I do resent my savings being crushed to bail them out. It's not like there isn't fantastic value in the 2nd hand car market currently either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boughtin95 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 People do seem to have very different views of what financial success looks like. For me it would be to achieve a situation where we could continue our happy, but modest lifestyle indefinitely even if both and I my wife weren't working. This would mean more time to do things that are "fun and free/cheap" - ie. walk in the hills, read, spend time with friends and family. I couldn't agree more. My wife and I chose to retire this year, I realised that we were working our lives away simply to save a bit more money each month and to pay tax. Our lifestyle hasn't changed other than no work related concerns, better sleep patterns and more time spent doing what we want to do. Debt and worry free is definitely the way to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rxe Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Car is no indicator of wealth. £390 a month can put a very shiny car on the drive. Edited November 7, 2014 by rxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Car is no indicator of wealth. £390 a month can put a very shiny car on the drive. £390 per month is more than a 25 year repayment London mortgage used to be just before the turn of the century.....anyway it is not what it costs to buy it is the cost to maintain, drive and service.....£390 for a car each month is still far too much to pay...having a shiny car is having a liability in more ways than one.....tells you quite a lot about someone......having a reliable, comfortable and cheap to run or no car at all, now that is something quite different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill D'arblay Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Car is no indicator of wealth. £390 a month can put a very shiny car on the drive. £390 is a hell of a lot of disposable income. Since 2012 my disposable income went from £3000pm to about £50 now. I spend it on Lidl pils and rum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 £390 is a hell of a lot of disposable income. Since 2012 my disposable income went from £3000pm to about £50 now. I spend it on Lidl pils and rum. Just depends if you bought a house before 2000 or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill D'arblay Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Just depends if you bought a house before 2000 or not I don't care. Apart from Lidl nothing gets spent in Britain apart from essentials like Water. Electric is from chinese solar panels. I don't ever buy from VAT registered sources except Lidl & Aldi. Everything else comes from the far east in little bags marked 'sample'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gf3 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I couldn't agree more. My wife and I chose to retire this year, I realised that we were working our lives away simply to save a bit more money each month and to pay tax. Our lifestyle hasn't changed other than no work related concerns, better sleep patterns and more time spent doing what we want to do. Debt and worry free is definitely the way to go! I lost my job last week. I am smiling ear to ear I don't think I need to work now. I did three days working for an agency this week I am thinking of doing two or three days next week. At the moment there seems to be plenty of work around. Love having the money to live a stress free life beats having a new posh car hands down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Flâneur Le Crunch part deux - BBC R4 yesterday had a phone-in about mortgages. Without exception (the ones I heard) were owner occupiers on Interest Only mortgages, now trapped and unable to change lenders. IIRC almost 50% of mortgages between 2000-08 were interest only. That means that for over a decade some people havent even been paying their mortgages down. There is big, big trouble brewing here. cant you see the oxymoron here. owner occupiers don't own jack sh1t if they are not repaying the collateral. they just occupy. Edited November 7, 2014 by oracle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
council dweller Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Will give up work in 2 weeks time, I`ve got the money to live until 66. I still can`t really believe it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainlessSteelCat Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 People do seem to have very different views of what financial success looks like. For me it would be to achieve a situation where we could continue our happy, but modest lifestyle indefinitely even if both and I my wife weren't working. This would mean more time to do things that are "fun and free/cheap" - ie. walk in the hills, read, spend time with friends and family, do evening classes, volunteer for worthwhile causes etc. For others it seems to be having to be having the biggest house/best car/most lavish holidays while still working ones nuts off and being 1 month away from financial meltdown. How they cope with the stress I really don't know. I really don't mind their choice, but I do resent my savings being crushed to bail them out. I agree. For me, financial success looks rather like your view of it. For others, it is being able to demonstrate status through the acquisition of material possessions. I suspect it's an evolutionary thing as apparently it cuts across cultures, countries etc - and it's probably a good thing that the population don't all think like the average HPCer too as I suspect our state of economic development would be rather lower than it currently is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bowman Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 £390 is a hell of a lot of disposable income. No it's not honestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 There's the credit card spenders that run up debts they can't afford because 'I'm worth it'. Then there's the thrifty buying secondhand when they could well afford new because they're 'not worth it'* Two sides of the same low self-esteem coin. *This is only talking about those who are relatively well off but thrift excessively (a lot probably won't perceive themselves as being well off though it is the reality). I'm not talking about people that have real budgetary constraints with responsibility for kids and need to watch their spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 No it's not honestly It is for a whole lot more people then you Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19 year mortgage 8itch Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 It is for a whole lot more people then you GregThat's how much petrol his Bentley uses on a drive to the corner shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth79 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 £390 per month is more than a 25 year repayment London mortgage used to be just before the turn of the century.....anyway it is not what it costs to buy it is the cost to maintain, drive and service.....£390 for a car each month is still far too much to pay...having a shiny car is having a liability in more ways than one.....tells you quite a lot about someone......having a reliable, comfortable and cheap to run or no car at all, now that is something quite different. Noted, i am in the market for a (new) car and have been wresting in my mind about New, second hand, or cheap like Dacia. My present car is 10 years old and lots of things are starting to need fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Noted, i am in the market for a (new) car and have been wresting in my mind about New, second hand, or cheap like Dacia. My present car is 10 years old and lots of things are starting to need fixing. Be sure to google for Dacia rust problems, I know it has been an issue for some models at certain points. Might be sorted now but if buying used you could obviously still be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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