51 Yes 49 No - Rumoured Yougov Poll Tomorrow

[Scunnered]

Independent:

Police in Glasgow struggled on Friday night to control a mass pro-Union rally after hundreds of demonstrators chanting "Rule Britannia" marched through the city centre in celebration of Scotland rejecting independence.

The tensions began in George Square, where at around 6pm a stand-off developed between a Union Jack-waving crowd holding "No Thanks" banners and supporters of Scottish independence, who have regularly been gathering there in the build up to the vote.

Men, women in children draped in Union Jacks and carrying banners associated with Orange Lodges in Glasgow, said they were in the square to celebrate the "saving of the union". However the chants, songs and behaviour resembled a football crowd rather than a political march.

The two sides were initially separated by a human cordon of police officers, shouting insults at each other and waving flags. The pro-Union group shouted: "We love Scotland more than you", "Alex Salmond is a w*nker" and "You let your country down".

[more...]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scottish-referendum-unionists-and-independence-supporters-separated-by-police-in-glasgows-george-square-9745333.html

I particularly liked the part where it says

The two sides were initially separated by a human cordon of police officers, shouting insults at each other and waving flags.

Tsk tsk. You can't rely on anyone these days.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Scunnered

[Scunnered]

Exciting photos in the Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762876/Union-flag-waving-demonstrators-make-Nazi-salute-Glasgow-victory-celebrations-Police-separate-rival-groups-tension-increases.html

[South Lorne]

Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/scottish-referendum-unionists-and-independence-supporters-separated-by-police-in-glasgows-george-square-9745333.html

I particularly liked the part where it says

Tsk tsk. You can't rely on anyone these days.

..thought the Independent was a quality newspaper....

Police in Glasgow struggled on Friday night to control a mass pro-Union rally after hundreds of demonstrators chanting "Rule Britannia" marched through the city centre in celebration of Scotland rejecting independence.

I could see this was not an issue for the Glasgow Police as described... joke reporting and as for :

"....a human cordon of police officers, shouting insults at each other and waving flags...."

..well what can you believe in newspapers when their english language would fail primary school standards....

[Liquid Goldfish]

So, the Tories are now stirring up English nationalism for party advantage - following on from stirring up hatred against benefit claimants and disabled people for party advantage - they are beyond vile.

Edited September 20, 2014 by oldsport

[olliegog]

So, the Tories are now stirring up English nationalism for party advantage - following on from stirring up hatred against benefit claimants and disabled people for party advantage - they are beyond vile.

so the SDL are anything to do with English nationalism? - am I missing something here or are you joking,

this was Glasgow - these were Scots.

[@contradevian]

So, the Tories are now stirring up English nationalism for party advantage - following on from stirring up hatred against benefit claimants and disabled people for party advantage - they are beyond vile.

I was thinking it was the other way round. Listening to Peter Hain yesterday, Labour are trying to Balkanise England, so it never gets a united voice and Labour Lib/Dem MP's in Scotland continue to have influence in Westminster.

The plan for regional devolution was massively rejected by the North East a while ago, but you can guarantee LibLabCon will continue down that route till they get the 'right' answer.

If you have seperate assemblies or Parliaments for Scotland and Wales, then England needs one too, and you need to solve the West Lothian question, which is more or less impossible.

There would have been outrage North of the border, if they had tried to Balkanise Scotland with mini assemblies in say Glasgow and Edinburgh, but would quite happily inflict this kind of organisation on England.

Edited September 20, 2014 by aSecureTenant

[1929crash]

I was thinking it was the other way round. Listening to Peter Hain yesterday, Labour are trying to Balkanise England, so it never gets a united voice and Labour Lib/Dem MP's in Scotland continue to have influence in Westminster.

The plan for regional devolution was massively rejected by the North East a while ago, but you can guarantee LibLabCon will continue down that route till they get the 'right' answer.

If you have seperate assemblies or Parliaments for Scotland and Wales, then England needs one too, and you need to solve the West Lothian question, which is more or less impossible.

There would have been outrage North of the border, if they had tried to Balkanise Scotland with mini assemblies in say Glasgow and Edinburgh, but would quite happily inflict this kind of organisation on England.

But the current situation is impossible too. And if you have an English PM - the natural outcome of an English parliament - where does that put the position of a British PM?

[Caius]

They're attempting to split up Wales too into city regions. With the north east being hived off into a Chester City region. The task group which came up with this was headed by Dr Elizabeth Haywood - wife of a Peter Hain. They want to destroy all feelings of nationhood....unless it's British of course.

[Caius]

I'm sure 1929crash will be creaming himself over Haywoods ideas.

[thecrashingisles]

But the current situation is impossible too. And if you have an English PM - the natural outcome of an English parliament - where does that put the position of a British PM?

You'd have an English FIrst MInister responsible for those things which are devolved to the federal states. It would be no different to the situation if England were carved up into regions, except the English FM would be a much more important figure. One benefit is that Hollyrood and the English Parliament would be more attractive for politicians to make their careers so the Prime Minister (responsible for foreign policy) would be less likely to be someone with no experience.

Edited September 20, 2014 by thecrashingisles

[1929crash]

They're attempting to split up Wales too into city regions. With the north east being hived off into a Chester City region. The task group which came up with this was headed by Dr Elizabeth Haywood - wife of a Peter Hain. They want to destroy all feelings of nationhood....unless it's British of course.

For once I agree with you - city regions is a sort of buzz word idea of the day without anything to back it up. i read that Haywood report for work purposes - I had no idea she was married to Mr Orange Tan.

[Caius]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/columnists/article-563112/Pain-gets-worse-Hains.html

[1929crash]

I'm sure 1929crash will be creaming himself over Haywoods ideas.

Ah well, since we are back to arguing, I must ask you for your opinion about the Scottish vote and its effects on Wales. If the Scots won't vote for independence, it makes the prospects for a welsh state recede somewhat - until the Sun balloons into a red giant.

[Caius]

This battle in Scotland was narrowly lost. But the war vry much continues. Ditto Wales.

[1929crash]

This battle in Scotland was narrowly lost. But the war vry much continues. Ditto Wales.

The southern rebels said pretty much the same after Appomattox.

Edited September 20, 2014 by 1929crash

[Caius]

The Labour Party conference begins today in Manchester and they will be discussing devolution.....to the English regions. :-)

[thecrashingisles]

The Labour Party conference begins today in Manchester and they will be discussing devolution.....to the English regions. :-)

They need to discuss the creation of English regions before they can think about devolution to them.

[Caius]

They will find a way of circumvening the democratic will to create them.

[1929crash]

They need to discuss the creation of English regions before they can think about devolution to them.

But based on the North East vote in 2004, English people don't want them. Maybe that's why there's so much enthusiasm for city regions - they look deceptively like local government.

[crashmonitor]

One assumes the lack of realism that the SNP had to the result* would have extended to policy making. The Nats on here were certain they would poll 60% as did Salmond (the Unionists took a bearish line of a cliff hanger that didn't materialise)......a 15% error like this on oil revenues and the economy would implode.

I think Scotland should run its own affairs but they need a party that can make realistic assumptions about oil reserves, tax revenues, flight of capital, loss of state subsidised jobs etc.

Scotland needs an independence party that can base its agenda on realism not extreme certainty like the fact they were certain to win.

* for the record my prediction was 53/47 to the Unionists but heavily swayed by the SNP extreme Zionists on here. I was pretty certain there was a silent majority and the Nats wear their opinions on their sleeves by contrast. The fact the Nats were blinkered to that suggests policy would be run with similar false optimism leading to bankruptcy.

Edited September 20, 2014 by crashmonitor

[1929crash]

One assumes the lack of realism that the SNP had to the result* would have extended to policy making. The Nats on here were certain they would poll 60% as did Salmond (the Unionists took a bearish line of a cliff hanger that didn't materialise)......a 15% error like this on oil revenues and the economy would implode.

I think Scotland should run its own affairs but they need a party that can make realistic assumptions about oil reserves, tax revenues, flight of capital, loss of state subsidised jobs etc.

Scotland needs an independence party that can base its agenda on realism not extreme certainty like the fact they were certain to win.

* for the record my prediction was 53/47 to the Unionists but heavily swayed by the SNP extreme Zionists on here. I was pretty certain there was a silent majority and the Nats wear their opinions on their sleeves by contrast. The fact the Nats were blinkered to that suggests policy would be run with similar false optimism leading to bankruptcy.

A thoughtful post, but even given the No result, it has touched off an orgy of constitutional navel gazing that is going to absorb everyone's energies for the next few years.

[stormymonday_2011]

I was thinking it was the other way round. Listening to Peter Hain yesterday, Labour are trying to Balkanise England, so it never gets a united voice and Labour Lib/Dem MP's in Scotland continue to have influence in Westminster.

The plan for regional devolution was massively rejected by the North East a while ago, but you can guarantee LibLabCon will continue down that route till they get the 'right' answer.

If you have seperate assemblies or Parliaments for Scotland and Wales, then England needs one too, and you need to solve the West Lothian question, which is more or less impossible.

There would have been outrage North of the border, if they had tried to Balkanise Scotland with mini assemblies in say Glasgow and Edinburgh, but would quite happily inflict this kind of organisation on England.

+1

If Regional Assemblies are good enough for England then Scotland, Wales and NI should be balkanised too. The reality is that Regional Devolution in England is a make job scheme for NuLab political apparatchik's and an attack on existing truly local democratic structures.

[1929crash]

+1

If Regional Assemblies are good enough for England then Scotland, Wales and NI should be balkanised too. The reality is that Regional Devolution in England is a make job scheme for NuLab political apparatchik's and an attack on existing truly local democratic structures.

Wales used to be balkanised - it was called having proper local government. However, since 1996 the number of Welsh local authorities have been drastically reduced, first to 22, and now the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay wants to see this reduced to just eight.

My view is that if the question of abolishing devolution in its entirety were to be put to Welsh voters next Thursday, it would be approved. All that the WG has done for me is impose a 5p tax on plastic bags and pressured local councils into limiting the amount of rubbish I can put out for the dustmen, under threat of a £75 fine.

[thecrashingisles]

Wales used to be balkanised - it was called having proper local government. However, since 1996 the number of Welsh local authorities have been drastically reduced, first to 22, and now the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay wants to see this reduced to just eight.

My view is that if the question of abolishing devolution in its entirety were to be put to Welsh voters next Thursday, it would be approved. All that the WG has done for me is impose a 5p tax on plastic bags and pressured local councils into limiting the amount of rubbish I can put out for the dustmen, under threat of a £75 fine.

So Wales would be better off becoming a couple of English regions.

[crashmonitor]

Got to say somehow Wales feels more integrated with England than Scotland. You have the South that do sound Welsh and so too the rural heartland of Ceredigion that is cut off by the Cambrian mountains and has its own Welsh culture.

However, the north coast feels likes scouse land and the east like Shropshire....especially that finger that shoots out right into England to Whitchurch.

God knows how these areas would cope with independence. Forcing people in say Hamner into Independence even though it is ten miles further east than neighbouring Oswestry (which is probably more Welsh) but in England.

Edited September 20, 2014 by crashmonitor