Eddie_George Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) We're a nation of shopkeepers workers. No surprise really considering it's our national sport/religion/pastime An astonishing 2.7 million people now work in the UK's retail sector, making it the nation's biggest employer, new research revealed.According to the report conducted by freelance marketplace PeoplePerHour, of the 2.7 million working in retail, nearly one million are employed by the big four supermarkets: Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda and Morrisons. The number of shop workers is also far higher than the second biggest employment sector, construction and contracting, which has 1.8 million builders, bricklayers, electricians and plumbers under its wing. Edited February 19, 2014 by Eddie_George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Of Highbridge Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Walking around here at lunchtime and lost count of the number of estate agents, take-aways and restaurants - None of these are 'productive' businesses either. I guess if 'living costs' allowed, the factories and labour camps would open tomorrow, controlled by some rentiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Supermarkets our our bread and butter.....estate agents are or livelihoods and banks keep things ticking over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 So what happens when automation really takes hold in retail?- as seems likely given how the competition from the internet will force them to cut costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-so Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Walking around here at lunchtime and lost count of the number of estate agents, take-aways and restaurants - None of these are 'productive' businesses either. I guess if 'living costs' allowed, the factories and labour camps would open tomorrow, controlled by some rentiers. They all add value in one way or another. Maybe not estate agents. The idea that production must be about metal bashing is too simplistic. How can you argue that a chef is not productive? He does with ingredients what your metal basher does with steel - transforms and adds value. And if EAs were not all so unpleasant I would note that they bring together buyers and sellers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They all add value in one way or another. Maybe not estate agents. The idea that production must be about metal bashing is too simplistic. How can you argue that a chef is not productive? He does with ingredients what your metal basher does with steel - transforms and adds value. And if EAs were not all so unpleasant I would note that they bring together buyers and sellers. Not sure you can describe retail as productive. It tends to be 80% stood around, shuffling hangers. We had a half-term shop. A lot of places were happy to entertain and chat to the kids - they break the boredom up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Every little helps.... How many are part time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) Every little helps.... How many are part time? heard a bloke on radio 2 yesterday afternoon, it was something like he was around a 50 year old "manager" and couldnt find work and the only thing saving them was the fact his wife had a decent job. His child was about to go to university and it was all very difficult. I'm sure this is repeated up and down the country. How many middle managers do we now have collecting trolleys in supermarkets. Wait till those redundancy payments run out and that coffee shop theyve open'd can't pay it's bills. Edited February 20, 2014 by TheCountOfNowhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy T Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Sad statistic in my view but what was the figure 10-20 years ago, has it changed that much? Metal bashing is viewed as being productive because ideally the end product is exported creating real wealth, as opposed to labour used to process imported products to consume. Why do we need more staff in supermarkets now? thinking about online Grocery shopping with delivery, surely at present it creates the need for more jobs at Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury's - Staff required to organise, picking and packing, delivery drivers. The number of people using the online service is probably not enough to make a dent in the size of store required/stock/staffing for conventional shoppers. Incidentally I was chatting to an Asda delivery driver the other day, he said pretty much all of their drivers worked part time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 head a bloke on radio 2 yesterday afternoon, it was something like he was around a 50 year old "manager" and couldnt find work and the only thing saving them was the fact his wife had a decent job. His child was about to go to university and it was all very difficult. I'm sure this is repeated up and down the country. How many middle managers do we now have collecting trolleys in supermarkets. Wait till those redundancy payments run out and that coffee shop theyve open'd can't pay it's bills. During my ~25 years of working life, (private) companies have been getting flatter and flatter Basicailly, middle management - something made up during the 50s-80s - have been replaced by spreadsheets and computers. God help public sector management when the gov works out how to use computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Incidentally I was chatting to an Asda delivery driver the other day, he said pretty much all of their drivers worked part time. tax credits tax credits tax credits. If you have kids or an recognised 'illness' - real or not - AND you earn less then ~40K then you go part time, get the same money and only have to turn up and pretend to work for 16h/week. Big problem happens this year when tax credits are changed to a) reduce payment, enforce 35h/week per parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Of Highbridge Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 They all add value in one way or another. Maybe not estate agents. The idea that production must be about metal bashing is too simplistic. How can you argue that a chef is not productive? He does with ingredients what your metal basher does with steel - transforms and adds value. And if EAs were not all so unpleasant I would note that they bring together buyers and sellers. You could also argue that housing is a productive asset since it produces housing for people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnails Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 heard a bloke on radio 2 yesterday afternoon, it was something like he was around a 50 year old "manager" and couldnt find work and the only thing saving them was the fact his wife had a decent job. His child was about to go to university and it was all very difficult. I'm sure this is repeated up and down the country. How many middle managers do we now have collecting trolleys in supermarkets. Wait till those redundancy payments run out and that coffee shop theyve open'd can't pay it's bills. i heard the same program on radio. one of our customers at work has made two managers redundant. Do you think it made a difference to business?. One of the sales man told me it has meant least meetings and everything else has carried on much the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Sad statistic in my view but what was the figure 10-20 years ago, has it changed that much? Metal bashing is viewed as being productive because ideally the end product is exported creating real wealth, as opposed to labour used to process imported products to consume. Why do we need more staff in supermarkets now? thinking about online Grocery shopping with delivery, surely at present it creates the need for more jobs at Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury's - Staff required to organise, picking and packing, delivery drivers. The number of people using the online service is probably not enough to make a dent in the size of store required/stock/staffing for conventional shoppers. Incidentally I was chatting to an Asda delivery driver the other day, he said pretty much all of their drivers worked part time. Quite, make work pay....keeps unemployment low, two for less than the price of one,, work benefits fewer but welfare benefits to live still required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Loadsa stuff No jobs It's a facer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Blizzard) Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) They all add value in one way or another. Maybe not estate agents. The idea that production must be about metal bashing is too simplistic. How can you argue that a chef is not productive? He does with ingredients what your metal basher does with steel - transforms and adds value. And if EAs were not all so unpleasant I would note that they bring together buyers and sellers. Yes, I agree entirely. Even estate agents are productive businesses, at least in principle. We have too many, but that's due to the distorted housing bubble rather than anything inherently wrong in estate agency. You could also argue that housing is a productive asset since it produces housing for people. Housing is productive. Building it, repairing it, trading it, all productive industries providing goods and services people are wiling to pay for. Even renting houses would be productive, if it were divorced from renting land. Landlording is not productive. The job of a landlord is to evict people from land, unless they pay money. There's no service, no goods, nothing. It exists only because government stops everyone else simply ignoring them. Edited February 20, 2014 by (Blizzard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthamptonBear Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 You could also argue that housing is a productive asset since it produces housing for people. Housing - like roads and other infrastructure costs are a cost, maybe necessary expenditure, but better if smaller. It's more to do with earning money from abroad to pay for imports. Manufacturing is/was more likely to earn imported money than retail. Seeing the hoards/coachloads of tourists visiting discount retail 'villages' - maybe not so relevant. But the idea of Chinese made tat being sent here before being re-exported to India/ Middle East is a bit odd. Mainly because - 'I got this [brand] tshirt in London' (well actually NOT London, but how would they know, they got on a coach IN London). That doesn't seem sustainable. Making rubbish British Leyland cars in the 70s-80s - probably not many exported. A few Jags? So this kind of manufacturing may have been a drag on the economy/country. Making Land Rovers (especially 50s-60s) - probably quite a few exported as this was before Japanese alternatives and Britain had special trade relationships. Still cars, but potentially good for the country. For Italy, Ferraris are probably good export currency earners. Can service industries make money from abroad? Yes, tourism - possibly finance, but the ill effects from finance seem to have poisoned the housing market, and the effect of becoming a high cost economy (housing) means that other exportable industries have suffered. IT could have been one, but it was crushed - by rules on self-employment, then IR35 and a host of other problems/government initiatives (contracts only given to huge suppliers, no look in for smaller players unless connected/corrupt). Independent contractors working hourly some of their time, developing their own ideas part time. Could have been a winner. Plus the tax burden is on productive people, and not speculative assets (land banks). A switch from employment taxes to Land Value Tax (LVT) would help. What future for sectors that import foreign money in exchange for goods and services? Sell land abroad? You can only 'export' each piece of land once unless it is reimported again. Where are the industries where you can repeat the business without using up the 'capital' of land? Tourism - hmm - ok - can it increase much? Manufacturing - high tech/specialist/small runs maybe, otherwise downward decline. Finance - I guess anyone parking money via the city will get a % shave at every opportunity so will pay quite heavily for the money to be laundered. Not what I want my country to prosper by as it is corrupting. Any other ideas? We need the cost base (housing) to decrease to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yes, I agree entirely. Even estate agents are productive businesses, at least in principle. Funniest thing i've read in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie_George Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Funniest thing i've read in years. Estate Agents are vestigial, or at least they should be in the Internet-age. Won't someone please design an app or something that gets rid of them once and for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthamptonBear Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Estate Agents are vestigial, or at least they should be in the Internet-age. Won't someone please design an app or something that gets rid of them once and for all? I could imagine a variation on shooting ho's and driving cars on American gangster infested streets. Shoot EAs and ram-raid nail bars? Oh - you mean replace a bunch of undesirables in reality? Hmm, I'd hope that would be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snafu Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Estate Agents are vestigial, or at least they should be in the Internet-age. Won't someone please design an app or something that gets rid of them once and for all? In Sweden there are alternatives that are widely used if I remember rightly (this was several years ago). In Sweden you need to study for 2 years to become an EA as well - doesn't stop the normal issues of course. I find the UK are typically 5 years behind on internet kind of things sometimes more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie_George Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) In Sweden there are alternatives that are widely used if I remember rightly (this was several years ago). In Sweden you need to study for 2 years to become an EA as well - doesn't stop the normal issues of course. I find the UK are typically 5 years behind on internet kind of things sometimes more. It's weird, because we're ranked fourth in world for ecommerce http://www.atkearney.com/documents/10192/3609951/FG-Online-Retail-Is-Front-and-Center-in-the-Quest-for-Growth-1-intro.jpg/930da3ab-665d-466c-8621-c4db529d8864?t=1385161041570 Edited February 20, 2014 by Eddie_George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 How many are part time? The 16 hour question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Estate Agents are vestigial, or at least they should be in the Internet-age. What amazes me is that people are prepared to pay £5K+ to sell a little house. it can't cost more than £200-500 quid to actually sell it. What value does a E.A. give other than none whatsoever ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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