The Bubbly Bitcoin Thread -- Merged Threads

[Lenelby]

9 hours ago, Frugal Git said:

I hope this is considered on topic, but curious of others experiences of this. If you work in tech, or know lots of people who do, do you find that almost overwhelmingly people *hate* crypto in general, and there’s just a few of us outliers?

where I work, and on the numerous tech forums I frequent the comments are almost always utterly negative. 

my opinion is it’s because most people, and this definitely includes extremely intelligent people otherwise, are just completely clueless when it comes to how the financial system works. Or they have swallowed some line they repeat ad nauseam like ‘true currency is backed by taxation, and guns’. Others just hate it for no reason - ‘it’s a scam’ - Why? - ‘I don’t know but it is’.

anyway, curious. 

 

Often read The Register aka El Reg to us IT folk and I’m surprised in the comments just how much hostility there is towards Bitcoin when articles are published. Especially considering many would normally be fans of open source, distributed software and distrustful of Microsoft, Apple etc. But I’m sure judging many comments that many have no real knowledge apart from mainstream media articles. 
 

My colleagues have no interest in Bitcoin but also no interest in finance generally. 

[dugsbody]

2 hours ago, Lenelby said:

Often read The Register aka El Reg to us IT folk and I’m surprised in the comments just how much hostility there is towards Bitcoin when articles are published. Especially considering many would normally be fans of open source, distributed software and distrustful of Microsoft, Apple etc. But I’m sure judging many comments that many have no real knowledge apart from mainstream media articles. 
 

My colleagues have no interest in Bitcoin but also no interest in finance generally. 

The reason is because bitcoin maximalists appear smug when they tell other very technical people "you just don't understand the technology otherwise you'd get it".

The technology isn't very difficult to understand at a high level and the lower level just needs a bit more reading and isn't that important anyway (eg. the maths of a hash algorithm).

Bitcoin maximalists, even in the article a few posts back, must categorise everyone who doesn't believe in bitcoin as wrong and therefore find explanations on why they're wrong (too dumb, too invested in the system, etc). 

It doesn't occur to them that they might be wrong and that is fairly obvious to other smart people, which is why they tend to react badly.

Edited June 1, 2021 by dugsbody

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The reason is because bitcoin maximalists appear smug when they tell other very technical people "you just don't understand the technology otherwise you'd get it".

The technology isn't very difficult to understand at a high level and the lower level just needs a bit more reading and isn't that important anyway (eg. the maths of a hash algorithm).

Bitcoin maximalists, even in the article a few posts back, must categorise everyone who doesn't believe in bitcoin as wrong and therefore find explanations on why they're wrong (too dumb, too invested in the system, etc). 

It doesn't occur to them that they might be wrong and that is fairly obvious to other smart people, which is why they tend to react badly.

More likely the resentment is from the ones who feel that they've missed out when they should have been on the techno ball and picked up Bitcoin years ago for pennies. I work in IT and know very few against Bitcoin and crypto (we were all filling our boots from 2013), but the ones that are are salty as feck because of this. It has nothing to do with the tech or any of the FUD.

Edited June 1, 2021 by MonsieurCopperCrutch

[Warlord]

No guessing what they will demand their ransom in ... yep.. I wonder.

Really think the US will tolerate this? 

HACKERS GO AFTER MEAT
1/5 OF CAPACITY WIPED OUT
SUPPLY FEAR
RANSOM BEING NEGOTIATED?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9638747/Worlds-biggest-meat-supplier-JBS-hit-cyberattack-Canadian-Australian-facilities.html

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

11 minutes ago, Warlord said:

No guessing what they will demand their ransom in ... yep.. I wonder.

Really think the US will tolerate this? 

HACKERS GO AFTER MEAT
1/5 OF CAPACITY WIPED OUT
SUPPLY FEAR
RANSOM BEING NEGOTIATED?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9638747/Worlds-biggest-meat-supplier-JBS-hit-cyberattack-Canadian-Australian-facilities.html

I know it's shocking we never had ransom demands before Bitcoin came along. Best call the police with your insights. Maybe there will be a reward in lovely fiat.

Edited June 1, 2021 by MonsieurCopperCrutch

[BufferBear Bitcoin Bull]

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Buffer Bear

[Warlord]

10 minutes ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

I know it's shocking we never had ransom demands before Bitcoin came along. Best call the police with your insights.

Times have changed,

BTC has a target on its back especially if hackers keep demanding it for payment in high profile ransomware attacks..

Action is coming..

Ask @Mikhail Liebensteinor @Peter Hun or anyone else who works in a related industry. They will crackdown hard on BTC sooner or later

Edited June 1, 2021 by Warlord

[MonsieurCopperCrutch]

2 minutes ago, Warlord said:

Times have changed,

BTC has a target on its back especially if hackers keep demanding it for payment in high profile ransomware attacks..

Action is coming..

Ask @Mikhail Liebensteinor @Peter Hun or anyone else who works in a related industry. They will crackdown hard on BTC sooner or later

Wow thanks for letting me know. This is certainly news to me, and quite unwelcome news at that. What do you suggest I do? While disconcerting to read, I'm hopeful that with such industry insider contacts as yourself, Mikey, and Pete guiding me I'll be able to take the correct appropriate actions before any crackdown. 

 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

32 minutes ago, Warlord said:

Times have changed,

BTC has a target on its back especially if hackers keep demanding it for payment in high profile ransomware attacks..

Action is coming..

Ask @Mikhail Liebensteinor @Peter Hun or anyone else who works in a related industry. They will crackdown hard on BTC sooner or later

Yes, I am big on encryption and high performance systems. Any coin that will be around in 10 years is going to need a security model migration, particularly where the hashing/crypto schemas are public and exposed. There is some safety in having an arbitrarily long key, but ultimately that will melt away with Quantum systems. Personally I think the best solution is a randomly generated private key you can't compute, but then that does require a secured trusted authority. I am wondering if something can be done with Homomorphic Encryption (allows data processing without decryption of the data), but that doesn't support a Public/Private key model yet and causes huge data sparsity challenges blowing up RAM and CPU/GPU requirements. It might be possible further out to do something on end to end security using quantum entanglement, but right now that has only been demonstrated for comms channel.

[Frugal Git]

5 hours ago, dannyf said:

I have also found very intelligent technically minded people (in software development) vehemently against bitcoin.  This is relevant I think:  https://www.citadel21.com/why-the-yuppie-elite-dismiss-bitcoin

Essentially it says that to be a believer in bitcoin, in spite of intelligence/technical understanding, you really need to be distrusting of, or to have lost out to the current financial system (something that should be familiar to people who found themselves on a HPC forum...)

Excellent read. My (and thus my colleagues) environment is extremely Cosetted. Very few I doubt have friends or family who have anything other than 'benefitted', at least in a surface level from the current financial system. The younger ones haven't - but in this sort of environment they tend to get wowed by the older ones. Only one young person I ever met *truly* did the work to dive down the rabbit hole - not just on crypto, but stocks, bonds, commods, the money system, debt, everything. Independently of me. And he came to the same conclusions I did a few years previously...but wasn't acting nearly enough on. 

'Ever get the feeling you're being cheated?'

Pretty much after that, in 2016, we both became ruthless mercenaries. Neither of us bat an eyelid about asking for multiples what other people do for our roles, but perversely both of us couldn't give a sh1t about money. But we'll take a proper slice on principal. And anyway, it's fake money so you might as well request a lot of it.
 

4 hours ago, Lenelby said:

Often read The Register aka El Reg to us IT folk and I’m surprised in the comments just how much hostility there is towards Bitcoin when articles are published. Especially considering many would normally be fans of open source, distributed software and distrustful of Microsoft, Apple etc. But I’m sure judging many comments that many have no real knowledge apart from mainstream media articles. 
 

My colleagues have no interest in Bitcoin but also no interest in finance generally. 

Yes, the comments on the register and arstechnica (both of which are pretty sh1t to be honest in terms of their journalism) are the ones I always 🤦‍♀️ about. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Frugal Git

[Frugal Git]

From that link, I really like this

"The upper right quadrant of the chart also happens to be the native home of the yuppie elite.  To succeed in the educated, professional class, you have to be smart.  But it’s also crucial that you know how to fit in, be a good team player, navigate industry politics, be polite and likeable, and above all be a good foot soldier willing to sacrifice for your employer.  The requisite core belief to be able to be all of these things is trust in the system - trust that if you are a good employee and play nice with others, that you will be rewarded via promotions and social standing. "

Whilst I agree with this - those people do quite well, I've found it isn't essential to be willing to sacrifice for your employer or be a good corporate citizen. The alternative is simple.

Be willing to be a hard faced ******* who is more than happy to do great work - indeed, the best work, because you enjoy it - but always channelling Joe Pesci.

'F**k you, pay me'.

....With the slight difference that you don't beat up your boss, but instead the subtle threat bubbles away that you'll up sticks if someone else pays more or gives you more interesting work. Loyalty goes both ways, and thus they usually end up paying and promoting anyway.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Frugal Git

[Frugal Git]

Anyway, back to BTC.

Its the only thing I've ever bought that had already gone up 10,000,000% (not accurate but you get the point) from its inception to when I bought it.

It had gone up 30,000% from when I first started investigating it, to when I bought it. 

With anything else, there's no way in hell I would have bought it. I'd have looked at that chart and assumed it was gonna bust, and left it at that. 

The reason I took so long, was I still had some degree of faith in a reckoning to the financial system that *wasn't* bitcoin. I still had some faith in 'the free market'. I still had some faith that a politician or central banker would come along and say 'hard reset'. A very silly attitude.

It was only when I finally thought 'hang on, what if that reckoning is bitcoin? There's nothing else that does what it does and it has first mover advantage', that I bought. One mistake was thinking of it as a currency for way too long. Once I squared it as Gold 2.0, it was time to get involved. And   one big attraction was the cosseted colleagues sh1tting on it, whilst me thinking 'You're getting screwed and you seem to enjoy it.' 

[markyh]

6 hours ago, Save me from the madness! said:

I'd like to join but don't have the money for 10 BTC, will you accept Tron tokens instead? 

No, shitcoiners will be the first people we rain genocide on. Trade it for BTC. DCA in, you know it's the only way. 

[Mixle]

3 hours ago, dugsbody said:

The technology isn't very difficult to understand at a high level

A cursory understanding is easy to gain, but full insight is very hard to achieve. That requires a lot of humility and a firm grasp of both physical limits and human incentives. The difference between knowing what an engine does to convert fuel into motion and knowing how to build one. The acceptance that some scalability problems are not solvable by definition, that no engine can go the speed of light. A little knowledge is dangerous and can get you burned, or devolved into <insert_altcoin_here>

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mixle

[Mixle]

1 hour ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

Yes, I am big on encryption and high performance systems. Any coin that will be around in 10 years is going to need a security model migration, particularly where the hashing/crypto schemas are public and exposed. There is some safety in having an arbitrarily long key, but ultimately that will melt away with Quantum systems. Personally I think the best solution is a randomly generated private key you can't compute, but then that does require a secured trusted authority. I am wondering if something can be done with Homomorphic Encryption (allows data processing without decryption of the data), but that doesn't support a Public/Private key model yet and causes huge data sparsity challenges blowing up RAM and CPU/GPU requirements. It might be possible further out to do something on end to end security using quantum entanglement, but right now that has only been demonstrated for comms channel.

Either you're big on encryption, in which case you know the rest is utter nonsense; or you're not, in which case let me tell you how nonsensical it is.

https://jbonneau.com/doc/BM14-SPW-fawkescoin.pdf

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mixle

[markyh]

2 hours ago, Warlord said:

Times have changed,

BTC has a target on its back especially if hackers keep demanding it for payment in high profile ransomware attacks..

Action is coming..

Ask @Mikhail Liebensteinor @Peter Hun or anyone else who works in a related industry. They will crackdown hard on BTC sooner or later

They are both office cleaners, wtf do they know? 

[dugsbody]

8 minutes ago, Mixle said:

A cursory understanding is easy to gain, but full insight is very hard to achieve. That requires a lot of humility and a firm grasp of both physical limits and human incentives. The difference between knowing what an engine does to convert fuel into motion and knowing how to build one. The acceptance that some scalability problems are not solvable by definition, that no engine can go the speed of light. A little knowledge is dangerous and can get you burned, or devolved into <insert_altcoin_here>

Exhibit A.

[Mixle]

Just now, dugsbody said:

Exhibit A.

Having argued against bitcoin maximalism just a few pages earlier, what am I an exhibit of?

[dugsbody]

Just now, Mixle said:

Having argued against bitcoin maximalism just a few pages earlier, what am I an exhibit of?

This.

3 hours ago, dugsbody said:

The reason is because bitcoin maximalists appear smug when they tell other very technical people "you just don't understand the technology otherwise you'd get it".

The technology isn't very difficult to understand at a high level and the lower level just needs a bit more reading and isn't that important anyway (eg. the maths of a hash algorithm).

 

[Mixle]

Just now, dugsbody said:

This.

 

Please explain where the smugness is, and will apologise/edit/rephrase, because that is not my feeling nor intent.

[dugsbody]

5 minutes ago, Mixle said:

Please explain where the smugness is, and will apologise/edit/rephrase, because that is not my feeling nor intent.

Then I apologise, but for what it's worth I'd forgotten I even wrote the word "smug" there. I was referring to this part specifically:

3 hours ago, dugsbody said:

when they tell other very technical people "you just don't understand the technology otherwise you'd get it".

The technology isn't very difficult to understand at a high level and the lower level just needs a bit more reading and isn't that important anyway (eg. the maths of a hash algorithm).

The key concepts that in theory impart value to bitcoin are not that hard to understand. The technical implementation to achieve it, also not that hard for a technical person. 

It's just that some people do understand and still don't see value. Others do.

The reason I invested is because I'm hoping enough people fall into the latter and keep pushing the price higher so I can eventually sell to fiat and retire. I don't think bitcoin is solving a big world problem or going to usher in a new era or financial system. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, even better.

[Mixle]

49 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

The key concepts that in theory impart value to bitcoin are not that hard to understand. The technical implementation to achieve it, also not that hard for a technical person.

The tech is a git style version controlled public key ledger where the "master" branch is chosen by proof of work with a kick-back for the prover; with the other branches dropped. That's the easy part.

But what number of people can be served by such a thing without it breaking or transforming into something different. F*** knows. How long can it possibly work with continued trends in miniaturisation? How does real human collusion and forking work once we get to super-low subsidies and <insert_nasty_paper> <insert_nasty_linky>? Is it possible for some counter network and/or futures market to reach around and break the incentive loop? Resolutions or even partial answers directly impart value to the thing. As technical person I've studied it for 8 years, and still find it very hard. Willing to accept I'm just a bit thick.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Mixle

[goldbug9999]

58 minutes ago, Mixle said:

A cursory understanding is easy to gain, but full insight is very hard to achieve. That requires a lot of humility and a firm grasp of both physical limits and human incentives.

Humility is the key, you have to accept two things. Firstly that a bunch of people had a really really good idea and you, no matter how smart, have nothing clever to add to that (see Musk for this on an epic scale). Secondly you have to accept that another larger group of fairly smart people got interested and bought in before you did and made eye watering gains which you cant never make (me included).

These are the only genuine reasons to not like bitcoin - a lack of humility and jealousy. All other stated reason are sophistry designed to hide these real motivations.

Edited June 1, 2021 by goldbug9999

[dugsbody]

36 minutes ago, Mixle said:

The tech is a git style version controlled public key ledger where the "master" branch is chosen by proof of work with a kick-back for the prover; with the other branches dropped. That's the easy part.

But what number of people can be served by such a thing without it breaking or transforming into something different. F*** knows. How long can it possibly work with continued trends in miniaturisation? How does real human collusion and forking work once we get to super-low subsidies and <insert_nasty_paper> <insert_nasty_linky>? Is it possible for some counter network and/or futures market to reach around and break the incentive loop? Resolutions or even partial answers directly impart value to the thing. As technical person I've studied it for 8 years, and still find it very hard. Willing to accept I'm just a bit thick.

None of that is present in the mind of a bitcoin maximalist telling some other technical person that the reason they don't buy into bitcoin is because "they don't get it".

[dugsbody]

37 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

These are the only genuine reasons to not like bitcoin - a lack of humility and jealousy. All other stated reason are sophistry designed to hide these real motivations.

Definitely?