Gigantic Purple Slug Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I read that the "blazing tap" videos are somewhat disengenuous in that certain regions in America have had methane in their drinking water for years and years, and it has little or nothing to do with fracking. At least that's what I heard, does anyone have better information? I think the answer to this is both. Methane naturally seeps to the surface in several areas of the world and can be lit. There is a flaming pit somewhere that has been on fire for a long time. It makes sense to me that methane might naturally find its way into water drawn from boreholes. Fracking naturally displaces methane out of the formation, so it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to figure out that it might have the effect of releasing it into groundwater that then makes it into boreholes that are used for drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'd welcome the remaining issues being cleared up. But in order to do this we have to have studies done by non-Government/gas industry scientists on say 100 wells across the US to ascertain what is going on. We also need to have the full formulas and ingredients for the various fracking chemicals used during the process. If the process is found to be causing pollution or dangerous release of chemicals all extraction should be halted until the issues can be resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 There have been plenty of issues raised with regard to fracking - in all corners of the world: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/06/22/frackings-biggest-problem-may-be-what-to-do-with-wastewater/ - Of all the troubles with fracking, the biggest—and growing—challenge seems to be what to do with all those millions of gallons of water contaminated with frack chemicals, leached minerals and salts. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9207396/Fracking-caused-Blackpool-earthquakes-QandA.html - Fracking caused Blackpool earthquakes http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-big-question-mark-on-fracking/2012/02/28/gIQAebfXgR_blog.html - Can the problems with Fracking be fixed? http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/20/local/la-me-gs-fracking-increases-air-pollution-health-risks-to-residents-20120320 - Study: 'Fracking' may increase air pollution health risks http://rt.com/usa/news/fracking-gas-health-report-917/ - US fracking sites impact health - report http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-evidence-fracking-contaminated-groundwater-2012-9 - Government Study Shows Evidence Of Fracking Contaminating Groundwater It's fair to say that numerous questions and issues still remain regarding the process known as 'fracking'. I wouldn't want to live near a well or have my water taken from anywhere near one. "It's fair to say that numerous questions and issues still remain regarding the process known as 'fracking'" I'd agree with this. "I wouldn't want to live near a well or have my water taken from anywhere near one." I don't know how many people in this country get their water from wells, but I suspect it is not many. That of course is no excuse for unnecessarily contaminating the groundwater. I think further investigation needs to be done on the fracking process, but it needs to be analysed in a scientific way, not through hyperbole. I suspect though whatever results are obtained from a scientific assessment if they are good the eco nutters will claim a cover up, so in some respects there is little point bothering. Ultimately the decision on whether we extract shale gas in this country will be on whether people want low cost energy or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I'd welcome the remaining issues being cleared up. But in order to do this we have to have studies done by non-Government/gas industry scientists on say 100 wells across the US to ascertain what is going on. You mean environmental campaign groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Shale is fashionable these days. The US has been in the news about it recently so the UK has to have news on it as well (shale news that is). Everything comes to the UK after the US. "The US has got all that shale news can we fill a few sheets with it as well". That not to say that there won't be shale for sure in the UK and most likely some of it in the areas shown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koala_bear Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Don't remember there being that many coal mines in Surrey. Maybe in 10 years time we'll hear "Yah darling, i'm just going down to the pit, and don't forget to have dinner ready for the Manchester United game when I get back. Super" rolling off the tongues of the chattering classes. There were several big coal mines in East Kent, the shale gas supplies in Surrey and Dorset seem to align fairly well with areas where there is oil though - often in low level production, some of the fields have been in action for 70 years but only produce a tanker load day etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 According to the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/04/sulphur-pollution-china-coal-climate since 1998 global surface temperatures have not shown a rising trend ie it has not got any warmer since 1998 but apparently this is because sulphur emissions from Chinese Coal fired power stations of masked the warming effect !!!!! You really couldn't make it up. Anyway given that Germany is now building loads of coal fired stations and India has hundreds in the pipeline, quite apart from the hundreds in China Personally I think that the MMGW scam is now officially over and that we should build gas and coal fired power stations. Clearly shale gas and cheap coal is the fastest way to plug the looming energy gap and avoid freezing to death in the up coming mini ice age that was predicted by scientists in the 70's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koala_bear Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 It is illegal to export crude oil but not gas and finished products AFAIA. The US exports a fair amount of diesel to Europe for example. The gas situation arises as their are no export facilities - ie gas liquification plants. Once / if they get built US gas prices will start to climb towards parity with world prices. The Jones act has been temporarily suspended (till next week) at the moment due to the effects of Sandy on the US east coast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democorruptcy Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I read that the "blazing tap" videos are somewhat disengenuous in that certain regions in America have had methane in their drinking water for years and years, and it has little or nothing to do with fracking. At least that's what I heard, does anyone have better information? The woman in that video mentions some sort of reading in the water that had shot up since the fracking started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You mean environmental campaign groups. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 No. You exclude government and the gas industry, who else is left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swissy_fit Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 It's time people were compensated correctly for having these kind of things near them, to make it easier to get these things past locals when the economy needs something done. Fast train line to be built close to property? Free/cheap train tickets. Nuclear/gas/windfarm power generation station next door? Free or v. cheap power/gas. Shale gas well nearby and your water is from underground sources? Free tank installed separating drinking water from washing water and filled by tanker for free. And so on.... (No-one is to mention the compensation for having the giant Austrian brothel next door....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The economics of shale gas are terrible. Wells have a 60-80% decline rate in the first year. What the shale gas companies have done is based long term profitability forecasts on first year production rates. That means with current U.S natural gas prices of ~$ per million BTU the co's are going bust. On long term production rates they need to sell at $6-8 per million BTU not ~$3. http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8212 Moreover that production is based on the best sites. They soon have to move to lower grade locations. Like all other new energy production technologies, its overhyped when first introduced. Then reality sets in or in this case will set in. Will it be a way to obtain energy? yes. Will it a game changer enabling cheap abundant energy? no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 According to the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/04/sulphur-pollution-china-coal-climate since 1998 global surface temperatures have not shown a rising trend ie it has not got any warmer since 1998 but apparently this is because sulphur emissions from Chinese Coal fired power stations of masked the warming effect !!!!! You really couldn't make it up. Anyway given that Germany is now building loads of coal fired stations and India has hundreds in the pipeline, quite apart from the hundreds in China Personally I think that the MMGW scam is now officially over and that we should build gas and coal fired power stations. Clearly shale gas and cheap coal is the fastest way to plug the looming energy gap and avoid freezing to death in the up coming mini ice age that was predicted by scientists in the 70's You do realize this is sound logical science (i speak as a scientist), and you don't have a clue what your talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidg Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 The discovery of shale gas in the USA has completely transformed their energy outlook because it is so plentiful and so cheap. I understand that they are planning to build a number of gas to petrol plants because they simply can't use it all as gas. In Wisconsin they are burning 30% of the gas they recover because the pipeline infrastructure is at capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 In Wisconsin they are burning 30% of the gas they recover because the pipeline infrastructure is at capacity. They are building a ton of extra cracking capability in order to take advantage of the amount produced. This is going to seriously affect the dynamics of the PE business and other polymers. The interesting thing is how this will affect global trade. For example Chinese make tat out of plastic and export to the US. What happens if the cost of that exporting (transport) becomes more expensive than the cost of the basic polymer feedstock ? All of a sudden stuff that could be made cheaper in china is actually cheaper in the states with abundant low cost feedstock, lower transport costs and robotics/automation. There are big changes ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 You do realize this is sound logical science (i speak as a scientist), and you don't have a clue what your talking about? Tell me that again in 20 years time. The many scientists who question the theory obviously know as much as those whose funding depends on promoting it only they don't have a vested interest and are therefore far more likely to be impartial and not make up data to suit the theory. Its not as if anyone has been caught admitting to doctoring the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Some have even proposed sulphur dioxide could used to geoengineer the planet by deliberately injecting millions of tonnes into the atmosphere to combat warming. It's comforting to know that everything's well under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 It's comforting to know that everything's well under control. Shame about all the dead tree's we'd have. Like all of em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 (edited) Shame about all the dead tree's we'd have. Like all of em. +1 and all the other stuff supposed to be associated with acid rain. Edited November 5, 2012 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 According to the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/04/sulphur-pollution-china-coal-climate since 1998 global surface temperatures have not shown a rising trend ie it has not got any warmer since 1998 but apparently this is because sulphur emissions from Chinese Coal fired power stations of masked the warming effect !!!!! You really couldn't make it up. Anyway given that Germany is now building loads of coal fired stations and India has hundreds in the pipeline, quite apart from the hundreds in China Personally I think that the MMGW scam is now officially over and that we should build gas and coal fired power stations. Clearly shale gas and cheap coal is the fastest way to plug the looming energy gap and avoid freezing to death in the up coming mini ice age that was predicted by scientists in the 70's You have always struggled with that one haven't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game_Over Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 You have always struggled with that one haven't you? The point is, every time the climate does not behave in the way the models predicted a new theory is concocted to explain away the discrepancy. This process will no doubt continue so that when we are all freezing to death it will still be the result of man made global warming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The point is, every time the climate does not behave in the way the models predicted a new theory is concocted to explain away the discrepancy. This process will no doubt continue so that when we are all freezing to death it will still be the result of man made global warming. The effect of sulphur areosols has been known about for many decades and thus built into climate models according to different scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Peter Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The point is, every time the climate does not behave in the way the models predicted a new theory is concocted to explain away the discrepancy. That's the way science works, though. Here, however, the basic science, I suspect is well understood. It's just that the system being studied is very complicated, so there is a continual process of trying to understand and deal with new facets as they emerge. Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Some have even proposed sulphur dioxide could used to geoengineer the planet by deliberately injecting millions of tonnes into the atmosphere to combat warming. Then once the sulphur dioxide has done the trick the planet could be geoengineered again by deliberately injecting millions of tonnes of baking soda into the atmosphere to neutralise it. They think of everything. http:// news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1917&dat=19711215&id=0mYtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u4kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=660,4719912 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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