The Disappearing Middle Class

[miko]

I wonder what channel 4 news meant by middle class. The hr woman is performing a more useful function now as a cleaner. Pointless middle management company Audi people are just going back to where they would always have been had it not been for the last 10 years free money. All of those types thought of themselves as getting on in life and now middle class, it was an illusion, they weren't doing anything useful. Cleaning, now that's useful.

We are talking about two things that can be seperate or together Middle class and or Middle earning.

Many not all of the class structures have been broken down compared to what they were a few generations ago . I think when people speak about middle class today they mean middle earning. Open for disscussion !

Middle earning are the masses who work pay taxes , have a standard of living that is comfortable and do not relie on benefits . ( apart from things like child allowance. They have assets ( ie houses and pension schemes ) but need to earn their money each and every month to carry on as they are , they do not have much in avaliable liquid assets to cusion them if they lose a job. Many are in the PAYE system or self employed with accountants and they pay their taxes.

The upper class have more , more to fall back on , more assets , more property and they pay as little tax as they can .

The under class do not work , do not pay in work taxes and live on benefits taken from the masses in the middle earning bracket.

If you destroy the middle class or middle earners which ever title you want to give them the system in society breaks down as there is no one to pay the taxes.

This was evident with this woman her earnings are now so low she was thinking about joining the under class. As for her doing something more useful now, that is only your opnion the report was unable to gague how much value she added or did not add in her former job. However if she was earning more in that job she would have been paying more tax and not thinking about living on benefits the company car would also have an impact on the economy as cars being bought whether by private buyers or companies creats jobs the spin offs from people like her earning more not less are endless. People like her earning less as is happening to more and more people now creates an enviorment of ever decreasing circles, as we are all interdependent.

As for only the last ten years standards of living were/have been quite good for about 40 years now when talking about the middle class/earners.

Edited July 14, 2011 by miko

[ken_ichikawa]

So a hell of a lot of people are going to live like me then?

If so they are in for a very unpleasant time. I am absolutely hardened to living like this, it bothers me little as I have said when I talk on HPC and other media I am simply not here.

[frenchy]

I am ineligible for JSA, thus I feel no guilt at dodgying, yes dodging not avoiding, as many taxes as possible.

on the subject of dodging tax, I have just found that I am non-domiciled fro tax purposes, although resident and UK tax payer. There has got to be something I can do to use my non-dom status and dodge tax. Any idea?

Edited July 14, 2011 by frenchy

[winkie]

I think you have mixed up the middle classes with middle managment . The middle classes are made up from people doing all kinds of jobs. Any society that wipes out its middle class wipes itself out in the end.

...who was it that said: " the poor they will spoil it for the rich"?

...a good way to save money is to cut out the middle man.....once the redundancy is spent, what else is there left to do?

[winkie]

We are talking about two things that can be seperate or together Middle class and or Middle earning.

Many not all of the class structures have been broken down compared to what they were a few generations ago . I think when people speak about middle class today they mean middle earning. Open for disscussion !

Middle earning are the masses who work pay taxes , have a standard of living that is comfortable and do not relie on benefits . ( apart from things like child allowance. They have assets ( ie houses and pension schemes ) but need to earn their money each and every month to carry on as they are , they do not have much in avaliable liquid assets to cusion them if they lose a job. Many are in the PAYE system or self employed with accountants and they pay their taxes.

The upper class have more , more to fall back on , more assets , more property and they pay as little tax as they can .

The under class do not work , do not pay in work taxes and live on benefits taken from the masses in the middle earning bracket.

If you destroy the middle class or middle earners which ever title you want to give them the system in society breaks down as there is no one to pay the taxes.

This was evident with this woman her earnings are now so low she was thinking about joining the under class. As for her doing something more useful now, that is only your opnion the report was unable to gague how much value she added or did not add in her former job. However if she was earning more in that job she would have been paying more tax and not thinking about living on benefits the company car would also have an impact on the economy as cars being bought whether by private buyers or companies creats jobs the spin offs from people like her earning more not less are endless. People like her earning less as is happening to more and more people now creates an enviorment of ever decreasing circles, as we are all interdependent.

As for only the last ten years standards of living were/have been quite good for about 40 years now when talking about the middle class/earners.

Good post milko........my findings also, having dealt with people form all parts of society and with all income levels.....the higher standard of living we have enjoyed over the last 30 or 40 years has been off the back of cheap imports and labour and easy credit debt, much of it never to be repaid and cheap imports don't last forever.....so in a way 'it was just an illusion'.

[ken_ichikawa]

on the subject of dodging tax, I have just found that I am non-domiciled fro tax purposes, although resident and UK tax payer. There has got to be something I can do to use my non-dom status and dodge tax. Any idea?

CGT and IHT.

But tbh it is the residency that counts above anything else since you are resident and if you bog off for a bit will still be ordinarily resident.

And or if any of your income comes from UK sources is gets taxed under UK law.

[Quicken]

Agreed, the most ridiculous law in the UK that should be changed pronto. How is it that savings in a bank = no benefits of any kind; wealth tied up in property = pork away and get your house paid for?

+1. I might start putting a sig together with a few things that need to change like this one.

[PopGun]

As already touched on....is this the propper middle class being wiped out, or is it really only those who think they're middle class because Tony Blair told them so?

[bendy]

I think you have mixed up the middle classes with middle managment . The middle classes are made up from people doing all kinds of jobs. Any society that wipes out its middle class wipes itself out in the end.

our 'society' needs wiping out too.

[easy2012]

on the subject of dodging tax, I have just found that I am non-domiciled fro tax purposes, although resident and UK tax payer. There has got to be something I can do to use my non-dom status and dodge tax. Any idea?

Non dom means that you have foreign income of >£2k, you have to pay for additional tax return software to file on your foreign income as the normal SA can't cope with that.

Non Dom status is now more of a pain than priviledge, unless you can pay the £35k (soon to be £50k) 'access fee' which exempt your foreign income.

As a result of the new rule, many Eastern European are probably tax dodging (e.g. if they have a house that they let out in their home country, they would

have an income of >£2k)....

[50sQuiff]

Can't they all just bake cupcakes and sell them to eachother? Middle class women always have that to fall back on.

[Dorkins]

As already touched on....is this the propper middle class being wiped out, or is it really only those who think they're middle class because Tony Blair told them so?

Quite. Unskilled admin work should be paid less than unskilled manual labour, not more. Manual labour requires a lot more effort, and fewer people are strong enough to do it every day.

I have no idea where the idea came from that Sharon in HR should be earning twice what Darren the building site gofer makes.

[thod]

Quite. Unskilled admin work should be paid less than unskilled manual labour, not more. Manual labour requires a lot more effort, and fewer people are strong enough to do it every day.

I have no idea where the idea came from that Sharon in HR should be earning twice what Darren the building site gofer makes.

Perhaps more important is the effect of aging. All those policemen, firemen, bricklayers etc cannot continue beyond a certain age. At this point they can move into the desk jobs having vast experience. They also have the mortgage paid off and so can accept less money.

[Save me from the madness!]

I have no idea where the idea came from that Sharon in HR should be earning twice what Darren the building site gofer makes.

Because Sharon in HR is like the poor relative of the banksters - she is closer to the source of money then Darren and when the payrise budget is announced HR make sure the HR people are first in line as they are the only ones with the time and knowledge to pass all the HR big payrise tests. I have nothing but contempt for HR these days, the profession seems to have degenerated into a series of box ticking pseudo-American corporate BS theory and they are purely a tool for the CEO's to reduce headcount or payrise, not improve the quality of the employees.

At my place we all have bonus objectives, but all the people with my job family just end up making things up with a nod and a wink because it's very hard to come up with a non-sales based target where the bonus objective is solely based on things within your direct control. It's a farce, and it takes time creating fantasy bonus objectives that can have evidence manipulated for and detracts from servicing the customer.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Save me from the madness!

[tahoma]

our 'society' needs wiping out too.

Down-with-us! Down-with-us!

First against the wall.

[Fudge]

They never were middle class.

They were working class living a middle class standard of living by getting into debt.

Living beyond their means. It was a temporary arrangement.

[Guest eight]

Of course - I was labelled a Cassandra - and I felt like Socrates....

I wouldn't let that bother you. He was a great player.

[tahoma]

They never were middle class.

They were working class living a middle class standard of living by getting into debt.

Living beyond their means. It was a temporary arrangement.

The irony is, if they had not run up huge debts their quality of life over the medium term and beyond would be little different anyway. Compound interest is great to receive, and a bitch to pay.

[Gone baby gone]

+1. I might start putting a sig together with a few things that need to change like this one.

I'll bet that's how Gandhi started - a sig. They're quaking in the corridors of power already

[Gone baby gone]

The irony is, if they had not run up huge debts their quality of life over the medium term and beyond would be little different anyway. Compound interest is great to receive, and a bitch to pay.

If the much heralded-on-HPC hyperinflation (or even moderately high inflation) arrives in tandem with the current penchant for low IRs, they may very well have the last laugh.

Certainly holding large amounts of cash would seem to be a mugs game whichever way you look at it.

[rantnrave]

Compound interest is great to receive, and a bitch to pay.

+1

How many people in this country who jumped at the chance to take a 110% mortgage could tell you the difference between simple and compound interest?

Edited July 16, 2011 by rantnrave

[Si1]

+1

How many people in this country who jumped at the chance to take a 110% mortgage could tell you the difference between simple and compound interest?

i have had a few discussions in the past with these kinds of numbskulls, and have had 3 responses so far:

(1) if you pay your mortgage off you own a house

(2) house prices always go up

(3) I [or my parents/uncle/auntie/granny] bought my house in 1974 and look how well I've done

they never actually answer the point, naturally

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

(1) if you pay your mortgage off you own a house

I try not to underestimate the capacity for stupidity but even I cannot believe that in 15-20 years we will have thousands and thousands of people who didn't realise they still had to pay back a lump sum after their IO mortgage. Surely this won't happen?

Edited July 16, 2011 by daiking

[sun n sea]

I wouldn't let that bother you. He was a great player.

[Dorkins]

If the much heralded-on-HPC hyperinflation (or even moderately high inflation) arrives in tandem with the current penchant for low IRs, they may very well have the last laugh.

High inflation isn't making anybody's mortgage more affordable so far.