Families Are Dumbf****!

[RichB]

I guess if there was a group of under 10's throwing rocks at people and who's parents couldn't be arsed to step in and for what ever you couldn't stop them without beating them and they were injuring people then I guess you could be forgiven for giving them a slap.

Not sure how often that happens tho.

So it is ok sometimes. Also the point was later raised about having words with other peoples kids being a bad idea in practise. All rather my point. Not sure why the overreaction.

Yet Starkey seems to hit it quite cleanly too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/8576036.stm

[ccc]

My world revolves around my wife and my kid; my family.

I'd probably guess your parents life revolved around you too.

Not a bad thing.

I don't think it is a bad thing as long as they keep some semblance of reality. Revolving your entire existence around another human being is not wise IMO. And for some parents that is it. Their life is their kid. Nothing else matters. Some may think that is healthy. I do not.

[Si1]

It's all subjective of course , I would respect the wishes (and have done so previously) of someone who didn't want children to attend their wedding but for multiple reasons it would make me less likely to attend. I understand not everyone has to like children but to find their very presence at a family gathering so annoying as to want them banned seems a bit odd to me.

I actually agree - it's lovely - and seems to connect all weddings of all cultures - having kiddies comically crying out in the middle of an occasion like this

however, of course, choice is choice, simple as that

[ccc]

I just think you don't understand, because you don't have kids. I don't either and fully agree that it's annoying when people just go on and on about their kids, via facebook or any other way.

Me and the missus are trying at the minute and we've promised not to let each other get like that

However I have heard many many times from people who you'd never thought would say it that your life just changes when you have kids and your find you're just living for your kids and they take great pride in that fact. Maybe we'll be like that in the future dude.

Well good luck. I still think you are emntal for trying but we are all different !!

I have heard the same from people as well. Most seem to see this as a good thing. I am not so convinced. There are more than enough people out there on this planet. I am doing the World a favour by just sticking to myself. Maybe I should get a medal.

[ccc]

From witnessing the behaviour of parents:

I reckon Children are like farts. You think your own ones are great. Everyone else thinks they are annoying and stink.

You ever heard a parent go on about their gorgeous wee kid - then you see it and it looks like something Freddie Krugger has been playing with !!??

People are blinded by their kids. I do agree in some ways this can be good. However people should also appreciate in others ways it is not.

I have never seen a man look so depressed and pissed off than in the following situation - Driving out of the IKEA car park with his wife in tow and screaming kid in the back. Half the time I see blokes like this I think they are about to commit suicide. They certanly look that way !!

Yet I am supposed to think they are happy ?! Forgive me if I don't believe that.

[I_Claudius]

I don't think it is a bad thing as long as they keep some semblance of reality. Revolving your entire existence around another human being is not wise IMO. And for some parents that is it. Their life is their kid. Nothing else matters. Some may think that is healthy. I do not.

yes, I agree; really not sure who you think it is that is advocating not keeping a semblance of reality or having nothing else in their life apart from their kids tho.

I haven't met anyone like that tbh; I have met some people who have maybe gone a bit overboard in having invested a bit too much of their identity in their kids but not to the extent you mention (nothing else matters? really?)

I'm at a bit of a loss to see where all this is coming from tbh, have you had uniformly bad experiences with children and their parents?

[OnionTerror]

I don't think it is a bad thing as long as they keep some semblance of reality. Revolving your entire existence around another human being is not wise IMO. And for some parents that is it. Their life is their kid. Nothing else matters. Some may think that is healthy. I do not.

Pushy Parent syndrome. I'm all for encouraging kids to take up certain activities, but I certainly wouldn't, almost force them to to take on certain activities that they don't enjoy. Some parents push their children too far & they try and live their kids lives for them. The kids may end up resenting their parents for doing this as they get older..

[ccc]

yes, I agree; really not sure who you think it is that is advocating not keeping a semblance of reality or having nothing else in their life apart from their kids tho.

I haven't met anyone like that tbh; I have met some people who have maybe gone a bit overboard in having invested a bit too much of their identity in their kids but not to the extent you mention (nothing else matters? really?)

I'm at a bit of a loss to see where all this is coming from tbh, have you had uniformly bad experiences with children and their parents?

There are many people out there whose lives revolve entirely around their kids. I am pretty sure you will have met people like that. I am sure everybody has.

As Zagreb78 says - pushy parents. They are all over the joint. Either that or the opposite - parents who molly coddle their kids in the extreme.

I have had many bad experiences with parents and their kids. Weddings, buses, airports, planes, shops - you name it.

[I_Claudius]

From witnessing the behaviour of parents:

I reckon Children are like farts. You think your own ones are great. Everyone else thinks they are annoying and stink.

You ever heard a parent go on about their gorgeous wee kid - then you see it and it looks like something Freddie Krugger has been playing with !!??

People are blinded by their kids. I do agree in some ways this can be good. However people should also appreciate in others ways it is not.

So far you've compared kids to day ruining dark clouds, packs of hyena's and now farts?

I have never seen a man look so depressed and pissed off than in the following situation - Driving out of the IKEA car park with his wife in tow and screaming kid in the back. Half the time I see blokes like this I think they are about to commit suicide. They certanly look that way !!

Yet I am supposed to think they are happy ?! Forgive me if I don't believe that.

I don't think anyone here has said that all parents are happy (espcially all the time), that's obviously patent strawman ********.

I think the benefits of having kids on balance outweigh the negatives tho, and I doubt I'm alone in that (it may surprise you to discover there is more to parenthood than stressy trips to Ikea and the constantly screaming kids you mention).

This is all subjective tho, as I said you seem to have made your mind up about children in general and we're definitely not on the same page.

[IWantItNow]

So far you've compared kids to day ruining dark clouds, packs of hyena's and now farts?

Credit where credits due, that was easily the best analogy ccc's come up with in the conext of this thread...made me laugh anyway!

[swissy_fit]

I have never seen a man look so depressed and pissed off than in the following situation - Driving out of the IKEA car park with his wife in tow and screaming kid in the back. Half the time I see blokes like this I think they are about to commit suicide. They certanly look that way !!

Yet I am supposed to think they are happy ?! Forgive me if I don't believe that.

You've got it all round the wrong way.

It's the wife and IKEA (a horrible and expensive combination, either on their own can be OK) that depress the man, not the kid!

When artificial wombs are perfected in the future, there will be very, very few men getting married.

[SHERWICK]

You've got it all round the wrong way.

It's the wife and IKEA (a horrible and expensive combination, either on their own can be OK) that depress the man, not the kid!

When artificial wombs are perfected in the future, there will be very, very few men getting married.

The IKEA experience is NEVER 'OK' for a man.

[swissy_fit]

The IKEA experience is NEVER 'OK' for a man.

Why?

A man can enter IKEA, find what he's looking for, buy it and put it in the car and be on the road in 30 minutes.

Even with a child in tow.

Arrive home, assemble, job done, day only half gone.

If his wife is with him, he will be there all day, he will have to eat horrible meatballs and drink vile berry drinks, look at every single item of furniture in the whole place, and will finally emerge, considerably poorer and loaded down with tat like scented candles and unnecessary items of poor-quality furniture. He'll have to walk behind his wife so she doesn't notice his bored brain straying to every bit of tail that passes, and when they finally arrive home, tired, fractious and burping meatball odours, he'll be expected to assemble all the sh1te that he knows will last until it's moved once.

Girls - what gets into you? Go with a female friend and a budget limit FFS!

[mitchbux]

Why?

A man can enter IKEA, find what he's looking for, buy it and put it in the car and be on the road in 30 minutes.

Even with a child in tow.

Arrive home, assemble, job done, day only half gone.

If his wife is with him, he will be there all day, he will have to eat horrible meatballs and drink vile berry drinks, look at every single item of furniture in the whole place, and will finally emerge, considerably poorer and loaded down with tat like scented candles and unnecessary items of poor-quality furniture. He'll have to walk behind his wife so she doesn't notice his bored brain straying to every bit of tail that passes, and when they finally arrive home, tired, fractious and burping meatball odours, he'll be expected to assemble all the sh1te that he knows will last until it's moved once.

Girls - what gets into you? Go with a female friend and a budget limit FFS!

Mr MB is a lucky sod, I must have a bloke's brain in a woman's body.

I can be back on the road in under 15 minutes on a good day. I've got all the short cuts sussed, which cut out all that winding back and forth crap. I assemble the ruddy stuff too.

[Woot]

mitchbux, it's all gone quiet now. Gonna leave it a week or two. If things start up again, we're tempted to dump the whole idea and go abroad and do it.

Why should you have to do that because of one ill-behaved woman? What does your fiancee think - does she want to get married abroad, or would she prefer family and friends in a lovely location at home? Don't get hounded into a change of plan - I wonder where your brother is in all this too? Frankly it sounds as though your SIL needs some boundaries established, but it's unfortunate that she has chosen your wedding as the battle ground.

You can, with dignity, simply hold your position and continue as though she were not a factor - just disengage: clearly the problem is hers alone. You are not responsible for her emotions, her emotional immaturity or her chosen perspective.

[The Masked Tulip]

I got lost for a day in IKEA once - arrived about 9.30ish 10ish in the morning and didn't get out of there till about 20 to 5 in the afternoon. The food hall did sustain me - fish and chips I think.

I only went there for a sodding tray but they don't keep all the trays in one place so you have to wander around and find them... and then once you decide which one you want you spend hours trying to find it again... I swear to this day that they kept moving the one I wanted whenever I got near to it.

[Woot]

If his wife is with him, he will be there all day, he will have to eat horrible meatballs and drink vile berry drinks, look at every single item of furniture in the whole place, and will finally emerge, considerably poorer and loaded down with tat like scented candles and unnecessary items of poor-quality furniture. He'll have to walk behind his wife so she doesn't notice his bored brain straying to every bit of tail that passes, and when they finally arrive home, tired, fractious and burping meatball odours, he'll be expected to assemble all the sh1te that he knows will last until it's moved once.

Girls - what gets into you? Go with a female friend and a budget limit FFS!

Yet another bloke from misogynist la-la-land... my children refer to 'Mummy's drill' when any DIY needs doing... so disappointing to find so many HPC men can't see beyond banal generalizations.

[Woot]

I will not go to a wedding unless my children are invited too !!

Have a think about that. It really is quite an incredible attitude to have. I am not coming unless person x can come too.

Have to say, I'm with ccc on this: it's just a question of good manners. Speaking as a parent of fabulous children whom I adore, I still can't begin to understand the poor manners that would cause someone to insist on taking uninvited extras to an event that may be entirely unsuitable - or to turn down an invitation out of pique. We're happy to celebrate with friends because they're our friends and are important to us - they may be good friends to our children too but the primary relationship is with us and we are happy to respect their wishes without choosing to interpret them as a slight to our children.

I agree it is sometimes difficult to find cover for your children; equally it can be difficult for couples to find venues that are child friendly, or have sufficient capacity, or simply to afford an extended head count, and that's before they begin to consider those parents who will abdicate responsibility for their children at an event.

However some people do seem to lose perspective when they become parents - and lose any kind of consideration for others; an astonishing degree of egocentric myopia can set in. You see it in restaurants, on trains and in so many other settings where the needs of one person's children become paramount to those of all others.

In typical HPC style this has become an unnecessarily polarized argument - a pity really.

[the gardener]

I just think you don't understand, because you don't have kids. I don't either and fully agree that it's annoying when people just go on and on about their kids, via facebook or any other way.

Me and the missus are trying at the minute and we've promised not to let each other get like that

However I have heard many many times from people who you'd never thought would say it that your life just changes when you have kids and your find you're just living for your kids and they take great pride in that fact. Maybe we'll be like that in the future dude.

+1

Your life changes immeasureably when you are blessed with children. Suddenly you stop being so selfish and much of your life is given over to another little person. You realise that this little life you have brought into the world is the most precious thing in the world to you. As a parent you would lay down your life for your child without question. Understand this ccc and you it may give you a bit of insight into the behaviour of parents. Is there anybody who you would willingly die for?

[I_Claudius]

Have to say, I'm with ccc on this: it's just a question of good manners. Speaking as a parent of fabulous children whom I adore, I still can't begin to understand the poor manners that would cause someone to insist on taking uninvited extras to an event that may be entirely unsuitable - or to turn down an invitation out of pique.

I don't think anyone's made a case for that

Turning it down unequivocally and purely on principle is over the top imo, altho I think I'd be hardpressed to think of anyone I know (who's wedding I'd want to go to) would not invite any children for fear of them interrupting a "quiet peaceful" event with their very presence.

That said if feasible and if they were close friends I'd certainly make the effort to go in any case.

I agree it is sometimes difficult to find cover for your children; equally it can be difficult for couples to find venues that are child friendly, or have sufficient capacity, or simply to afford an extended head count, and that's before they begin to consider those parents who will abdicate responsibility for their children at an event.

It can be more than just difficult, if a wedding requires you to travel or be away for 24 hours or more it's just not feasible for many to go without their kids.

CCC seemed to be advocating people banning children from weddings on the basis of inconvenience rather than practicality, out of worry that they would scream non stop throughout the entire event or be otherwise irritating, which does seem a bit selfish and unwarranted; it's all subjective tho of course.

Some people don't enjoy the company of kids, especially at social events, which of course is absolutely their right; a family celebration without them just seems a bit odd to me.

[ccc]

Have to say, I'm with ccc on this: it's just a question of good manners. Speaking as a parent of fabulous children whom I adore, I still can't begin to understand the poor manners that would cause someone to insist on taking uninvited extras to an event that may be entirely unsuitable - or to turn down an invitation out of pique. We're happy to celebrate with friends because they're our friends and are important to us - they may be good friends to our children too but the primary relationship is with us and we are happy to respect their wishes without choosing to interpret them as a slight to our children.

I agree it is sometimes difficult to find cover for your children; equally it can be difficult for couples to find venues that are child friendly, or have sufficient capacity, or simply to afford an extended head count, and that's before they begin to consider those parents who will abdicate responsibility for their children at an event.

However some people do seem to lose perspective when they become parents - and lose any kind of consideration for others; an astonishing degree of egocentric myopia can set in. You see it in restaurants, on trains and in so many other settings where the needs of one person's children become paramount to those of all others.

In typical HPC style this has become an unnecessarily polarized argument - a pity really.

Good post. And I agree this debate should not really polarise. However when ever I bring up this subject it always ends up with parents vs non parents !! Although there are such like yourself who can see both sides.

+1

Your life changes immeasureably when you are blessed with children. Suddenly you stop being so selfish and much of your life is given over to another little person. You realise that this little life you have brought into the world is the most precious thing in the world to you. As a parent you would lay down your life for your child without question. Understand this ccc and you it may give you a bit of insight into the behaviour of parents. Is there anybody who you would willingly die for?

But you will not stop being selfish - you will just become selfish by proxy - on behalf of your child.

Doing everything in the interests of your child - however understandable that may be - you must agree it is also selfish ?

And yes family and friends I would put myself in front of if I had to. That is not really the point though. I wouldn't refuse to go to a party I wanted to be at - just coz my pal wasn't invited !! Unless of course there was proper malice involved.

Putting your child first and doing all you can for them ? Totally understand. However having everything revolve around them ? Very unhealthy , and also not good for the kids IMO.

Anyway - Ossmozis - we want more texts !!

[ccc]

I don't think anyone's made a case for that

Turning it down unequivocally and purely on principle is over the top imo, altho I think I'd be hardpressed to think of anyone I know (who's wedding I'd want to go to) would not invite any children for fear of them interrupting a "quiet peaceful" event with their very presence.

That said if feasible and if they were close friends I'd certainly make the effort to go in any case.

It can be more than just difficult, if a wedding requires you to travel or be away for 24 hours or more it's just not feasible for many to go without their kids.

CCC seemed to be advocating people banning children from weddings on the basis of inconvenience rather than practicality, out of worry that they would scream non stop throughout the entire event or be otherwise irritating, which does seem a bit selfish and unwarranted; it's all subjective tho of course.

Some people don't enjoy the company of kids, especially at social events, which of course is absolutely their right; a family celebration without them just seems a bit odd to me.

I can see what you are saying. However I imagine those arranging weddings have to weigh up the pros and the cons. And many decide that the chance of their 'I do' moment being overshadowed by a 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' from a 3 year old - is enough to warrant leaving the kids to have fun and be noisy afterwards at the start of the reception. Which seems a far more appropriate place for kids IMO.

Sitting quiet and behaving is not most kids strong point. Running about like dicks is. I know it was for me.

[Kingding]

Best thread on HPC for ages.

[the gardener]

I can see what you are saying. However I imagine those arranging weddings have to weigh up the pros and the cons. And many decide that the chance of their 'I do' moment being overshadowed by a 'aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh' from a 3 year old - is enough to warrant leaving the kids to have fun and be noisy afterwards at the start of the reception. Which seems a far more appropriate place for kids IMO.

Sitting quiet and behaving is not most kids strong point. Running about like dicks is. I know it was for me.

Every wedding I've been to (20+) bar one (the one I didn't go to) has had children present. Can't say I've ever noticed bad behaviour from children during the ceremony. Oh and all the weddings I've been to I went to before I had children so it isn't down to me being a parent and not noticing bad behaviour. All the bad behaviour I've ever seen has been from adults.

[Lagerkhan]

Have to say, I'm with ccc on this: it's just a question of good manners. Speaking as a parent of fabulous children whom I adore, I still can't begin to understand the poor manners that would cause someone to insist on taking uninvited extras to an event that may be entirely unsuitable - or to turn down an invitation out of pique. We're happy to celebrate with friends because they're our friends and are important to us - they may be good friends to our children too but the primary relationship is with us and we are happy to respect their wishes without choosing to interpret them as a slight to our children.

I agree it is sometimes difficult to find cover for your children; equally it can be difficult for couples to find venues that are child friendly, or have sufficient capacity, or simply to afford an extended head count, and that's before they begin to consider those parents who will abdicate responsibility for their children at an event.

However some people do seem to lose perspective when they become parents - and lose any kind of consideration for others; an astonishing degree of egocentric myopia can set in. You see it in restaurants, on trains and in so many other settings where the needs of one person's children become paramount to those of all others.

In typical HPC style this has become an unnecessarily polarized argument - a pity really.

A decent attempt at being even handed, but ultimately let down by projection of motive. "Out of pique"? No, just a disagreement of where importance lies. Is it not possible to consider a situation where you'd rather not go somewhere where people important to you are not welcome? I utterly disagree that bad manners are being demonstrated here, simply a choice. Again reducto ad absurdum No blacks no Irish No Dogs. Reasonable?

Furthermore no one has suggested breaking the embargo. Though part of me finds it intensely amusing that anyone would even consider such a thing. "Is that a child you have there?" "No! That's mys Husband and you'll mind your manners he has dwarfism!"

I'm happy to admit that my attachment to my children is more important than my attachment to my friends. I guess I'm just happy in the knowledge that my mates would manage without me. It wouldn't be the end of the world and neither would I see it as a sleight against their invite.