London House prices are being battered !!!

[Option5]

7 minutes ago, Venger said:

As Greg also said, consider your own sensitivity issues.  A lot of what you may see, and cast blame about, may be faults inside of you, because you can't handle other people having market opinions and robust discussion thereof. 

You have no idea, I really don't care I just prefer people to be polite to each other, but, if need be I'm perfectly capable of playing rough if that's the way it works on here.

Exactly.

So if any opinion/view doesn't match your own on HPC forum, it's not valid.  Just googled up something from a zany site.

-------------------------------

I haven't stated an opinion. Just pointing out what's possible.

 I am sorry if you find me (as you have posted) 'full of hate' for homeowners - and all the depsise nonsense. 

That's how you come across to me, but see below.

That's projecting something totally false onto me.  How can I be, when I want to be a homeowner.  My position is one that buyers are reponsible for price they pay.  That is so when they are paying £150,000 more than I believe a semi-D is worth/beyond my affordability.   I have not tipped into you about your 'hate / bitter' casting on me vs 'owners' - but it's wrong, and I push back now.   

Fair enough, suitably chastened.

 

 

[Venger]

9 minutes ago, Option5 said:

You have no idea, I really don't care I just prefer people to be polite to each other, but, if need be I'm perfectly capable of playing rough if that's the way it works on here.

I have no idea?  (About what?)

Welcome to arguing on the internet about UK property. If you'd been led to believe it was kisses and cuddles and then baked beans for tea, you've been misled.

You really don't care?  (About what... how forum discussion takes place - but make huge issue about it anyway?)

It's just robust discussion at times, and mostly calm and polite and thoughful (although sometimes enthusiastic and moments of misunderstandings that can be worked through with mature level minds - witness Greg and I on this thread).

Disagreeing forcefully is not quashing dissent - it is engagement. 

It's a multi Trillion property market full of many many vested interests, including those on here, such as outright owners with thousands of posts who are active on many other non-housing-threads, but when they do tip up to talk about housing, it's 'hate/stop wishing misery/stop wanting house prices to go down.'

Seems to me you want you own view to be elevated to what-matters-most, and when it's taken on and deconstructed, you go on a big whinge about how discussion takes place on forum - and other members of it.

15 minutes ago, Option5 said:

That's how you come across to me, but see below.

And that's why all opinions on forum shouldn't be treated as equally as you seek them to be - because you couldn't be more wrong, and got HPCers who have previously rallied up for me against such total nonsense.

42 minutes ago, Venger said:

Neverwhere:   Shouting "hate" is at least as insulting as shouting "troll", and some of the things you said were significantly worse.

I could not disagree more strongly with this. That is not how Venger comes across to me at all. I have never seen Venger post anything about hating anyone, nor anything which could be reasonably interpreted as an expression of hate.

You go on a mission about people getting called trolls, with such sensitivity, but you have no problem about repeatedly casting me as 'hate/despise' for homeowners.

Which is just such a total nonsense.  It's ultimate free-will to buy - I can't even go view at these prices.  I respect buyers as adult market participants, and push back against those superiors casting them as innocents/victims/forced to buy - in a market where there buyers have millions of different views, millions of different positions (inc HPCers who have bought who have bought lower end housing to balance the risks).... and different levels of income/bomad/inheritance.

In a market where millions of BTLers have bought up millions of homes....

I am ideologically committed activist for much fairer house price market for younger generations - as far as it is possible to be - and against BTLism / rentierism that has taken place to extremes.

Quote

 

OK, so having added a bit of actual content to the thread I feel I've earned the right to go back to this briefly. When I first joined the forum it was a pretty standard thing to joke about how quickly an HPC thread would go off topic and it was also not a big deal to point out that somebody was dragging the thread off topic.

If somebody needs to have it explained to them that dragging a topic like this off into a rant about Joan Bakewell in a big house is so disruptive that they are effectively trolling (regardless of their espoused intent) then there's probably no helping them. If they are actively trolling then responding to them too much is just assisting in the trolling. If they are not actively and knowingly trolling then we're back to the problem of there being no helping them.

In the end the problem usually solves itself because if they are genuine then posters of this type burn themselves out in a firestorm of their own heartfelt indignation, and if they are knowingly trolling then eventually the weight of evidence stacks up and everyone gets wise to it. wotsthat reminds me of Grumpysod (whose profile and all their posts have now been deleted).

 

I can't tell which you are Option5, but you've tipped into me a few times (always so eager to do so - and frequently with 'hate and despise' which to me is delberately trying to misstate my position to extremes (and therefore trolling).  2017 member so quick to do that... hmm.  So I'm calling you a Troll Tw@t.  Go report me to one of the Moderators.

I've pushed back against your hate-and-despise argument, but you still hold to it and project it on to me, despite all your "Forum should be so nice and polite, all opinions are equal, post this way not that way. Trolls don't exist."

And you ave already had to apologise once for confusing me with someone else (who another grumpy 'I want forum to be this way' poster was whining about - one of the forum's best minds.

If you keep on driving down a road in which you call people up on their posting behaviour you are inevitably going to attract some analysis of your own.

Why don't you bring something to a thread rather than whinge on about what "How to Post" / "Don't allow full range of discussion for new members".

Quote

I'm afraid these kinds of comments always read to me as a call to silence disagreement and debate, in the name of saving them.

 

[london_thirtythree]

3 hours ago, Pop321 said:

I think you are right. Places like Islington & Bayswater feel invincible when prices are rising. The little boutique shops and independent coffee shops feel strong and even the charity shops & DIY stores feel a quaint addition to the village feel. But it is when the sentiment and prices stall that actually Islington High St just looks ordinary and the Neros staff are earning similar amounts to the Nero's staff in Sheffield and Leeds which all start to feel remarkably similar when the hype has gone. 

Its these villages which could really tumble back to much more realistic and ordinary prices because these locations are ordinary. 

So some places do feel 'better than others'. Those back streets in Nottinghill will always be more money than the North. It's the extent of the difference even in these places which feels disproportionate. I agree, they could fall in sentiment and price overnight. 

Agree.....?

Hopefully back to some examples from the locals and researches on this forum of those falls. Sentiment definitely has changed and some reflex spurt growth in the Northern 'hotspots'  eg York, Harrogate, nicer Mancs and Newcastle but my experience is that happens for a few months until people realise the London drops are not just a timing issue but an indication of a sustained fall. 

London proper headlines beginning 2019. Rest of us...towards end of 2019. 

As an Islington dweller - I think the Upper Street and surrounding area is a lovely place to live, and will always 'have something about it' as long as places don't start shutting up shop.  If you go off into nearby Essex Street, this is more basic and still quite nice and independent.  I travel quite a bit in the UK, and Islington is proper nice to spend time/evenings in.

The problem with these areas is that they tend to be premium priced compared to other places in the UK, or even in London.  So when the economy is good and people are going out there all is well, if there was belt tightening or a recession then these places would get hit as these things would be high of the list of cutbacks. (try comparing the cost of Screen on the Green to another London cinema.. is a lovely gaff tho)

I'm not in the know on the link between rising house prices and people's spending on this kind of thing. (as presumably once you have your mortgage, would rising paper money encourage you to spend?  I guess it does somehow but seems odd to me, as what your place is *perceived* to be worth is not really connected with your day to day spending.. but that might be my naivety on how much house prices affect things)

The problem with houseprices in Islington and most of London is that they are simply too expensive - and the premium for owning a place in London is probably >£300,000 now (i.e. a place in London for £500,,000 would probably cost £200,000 elsewhere) and alot of people I know are looking for a better long term purchase elsewhere.

From what I can gather, alot of people rushed into the bubble in 2013 and 2014 on the basis of prices only ever going up and so was more of a speculative purchase - but that perception is taking a beating at the moment. (of which I am a proud nay-sayer on!  As I think buying in London as an 'investment' at the moment is pretty dumb)

That alongside with declining interest from BTLs and Foreign Investment seems to be spelling doom for London at the moment, and presumably for at least the next year whilst Brexit uncertainty goes on and on which is further depressing BTL and Foreign Investment.  Will rebound somewhat when prices drop to the point that FTBs are more involved, which at current interest rates is £400k to £500k - but as interest rates go up, that will drop further.

So I imagine London will be in decline for 2018 and 2019, the rate of this decline being governed by Interest Rates and Brexit, and whether people start fleeing for the exits and drop their prices dramatically. (which I've seen a couple of now, so you never know how it will go!)

[Option5]

3 minutes ago, Venger said:

I can't tell which you are Option5, but you've tipped into me a few times (always so eager to do so - and frequently with 'hate and despise' which to me is delberately trying to misstate my position to extremes (and therefore trolling).  2017 member so quick to do that... hmm.  So I'm calling you a Troll Tw@t.  Go report me to one of the Moderators.

2017 member? back to the "I've been here longer so I'm right" argument?

I don't report anybody, I can fight my own battles thank you.

Oh and you missed the bit where I said, Fair enough, suitably chastened.

[Option5]

5 minutes ago, london_thirtythree said:

As an Islington dweller - I think the Upper Street and surrounding area is a lovely place to live, and will always 'have something about it' as long as places don't start shutting up shop.  If you go off into nearby Essex Street, this is more basic and still quite nice and independent.  I travel quite a bit in the UK, and Islington is proper nice to spend time/evenings in.

 

One of the "posh" butchers has just gone under:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/muddy-boots-butchers-closes-down-after-owners-put-life-savings-into-firm-a3698141.html

[Venger]

16 minutes ago, Option5 said:

2017 member? back to the "I've been here longer so I'm right" argument?

I don't report anybody, I can fight my own battles thank you.

Oh and you missed the bit where I said, Fair enough, suitably chastened.

Absolutely not.

Just about your "How To Post" viewpoints, and knocking toward forum generally as 'closed''.

And your pretend sensitivity to someone being called a troll - vs happy to cast others as full of hate and despising (as priced-out renter-savers up against so many VIs... HPIers/BTLers in housing financialisation).  

As 2017 member and not one who have much forum experience (as you admit yourself), and doesn't know full background (unless you have been around here in the past... many trolls join again and again with new accounts) - to be so quick to cast someone who has fought hard against BTLism as hating on homeowners - when I respect their choices to buy.   

It's others casting them as forced into it/innocents/braindead, where I argue millions of different reasons why people buy (including HPIers), millions of different incomes and financial positions and outlooks - so can't all be as braindead as some superiors cast buyers as.  Many intelligent people buy houses.  Some HPCers limited risk by buying in cheaper areas/smaller homes.  Market out there.  And a market where something like 7 out of 10 owners have no mortgage, and 2 million BTLers laid claim to 5 million homes, with another 1.6 million BTL mortgages since 2010.

On 21/11/2017 at 9:35 AM, Option5 said:

As a relative newcomer I have found that if you dare disagree with some "established" members you're considered a troll. Referring to historical posts, "heard it all before" etc in an attempt to put the newbie in their place is neither polite or constructive. If new members are not welcome make it a closed group, don't just allow newcomers in to abuse them to show how clever you are.

Either all opinions are equal or this is not really a forum just a sounding board for certain people, it should be a place where subjects are discussed, and people either agree or agree to disagree on a subject. Truth does not belong to the one who shouts the loudest.

There are genuine disruptors on this forum but  just because someone has a different opinion to yours doesn't actually make them a troll.

I supposed I'll be "outed" as a troll for posting this but I think it had to be said.

Silence debate in name of saving it.  Because forum doesn't echo to your own view, most likely.  Or your viewpoints deconstructed and not happy about that.

Not all views equal for I am taking on your views and desconstructing them - as a few others have about your view of it being shouty and closed forum, and 'How To Post' - be polite stuff, while you alone can repeatedly (other threads too) shout hate/despite.

Trolling behaviour is a fact - and Moderators have taken action at some points when it's become excessive/damaging from some trolls - trying to muddy and throw-off debate - way beyond difference of opinion.   Are you the troll master finder now, claiming yourself innocent newcomer to all forums?  While also so keen to tell others "how to post" with all of your inexperience.

On 21/11/2017 at 10:07 AM, Option5 said:

That's fine and I personally have no problem with what you say, however opinions are just that and I'm sure with the magic of google you can find "facts" to back up any argument. You can probably find "factual" evidence that the world is flat and is soon going to be destroyed by an invisible planet

The Brexit thread is a great example of people posting contradictory facts to support their view. If you disagree with someone's opinion, educate them in your way of thinking by persuasion not shouting them down. Backing people into a corner just leaves them no option but to attack.

I like driving old cars, some of the people I know think I'm crazy and point out the faults with my choice which I accept in good grace. If they came armed with old road tests and articles about service intervals and fuel consumption and yelling that I'm an idiot I might get a bit prickly.

   Although maybe more truth about that re Brexit.  On house prices, we can point to many things we know for certain, including the BTLers.

Maybe that's how you see forum (shouty / attack / corners) - it's not how I see forum.

On 21/11/2017 at 11:48 AM, Option5 said:

It could be I see it from a different perspective because this is the first forum I've ever joined.

 

12 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

But it can’t be the only socially and politically diverse group you have been involved with or contributed to, or is it ? Sheltered Life ?

4 hours ago, Option5 said:

No but people tend to be as forceful in the flesh and you can read their faces and body language and avoid those who may be just looking for trouble. I especially avoid those who think they'll make themselves look better by making everyone else look bad. I quite like the debates, it's just some of the vitriol I find distasteful.

Passion and many well argued constructed points on forum.

On 31/07/2015 at 10:22 PM, Beary McBearface said:

Of course, I am in no position to offer lessons, and I'm sorry if the bluntness is beyond bracing and into offensive, but all veteran posters will have been on the receiving end of pretty full on ad hominem insults at some point just for thinking that house prices might go down, so in my estimation we are self-selected for being thick skinned.

If I project that onto you and expect you to be able to take it straight, then that's me showing respect to you, isn't it?

The Summer Budget is bringing some new posters our way, but even I as a real Johnny Come Lately have been around long enough to know that when hoi polloi get edgy about house prices the troll count in these parts appears to ramp up a little bit. It could be me 'seeing things' but I don't think it is.

Maybe initiation is a little tough, I remember getting called out times many, particularly as a newbie, and hope to be called out many times more; that's how I know this is not an echo chamber, because regularly other posters hand me my @rse. But it is kind of awesome once you're running with it, so get posting - hpc is not just the main board. Ask questions. Answer questions. Offer opinions. Go fish!

On 31/07/2015 at 5:55 PM, Beary McBearface said:

How can the question "Why?" have a side?

If there are sides here it is with respect to valuing reasoned argument from evidence over prejudice absorbed unthinkingly from a moronic pwoperdee mad culture and then regurgitated here, when here is in point of fact one of the few places where you will get carved a new @rsehole for giving voice to those silly prejudices.

I think that you are doing far too much editorialising. If you have your own arguments, make them, if you have objections to other people's arguments, make those. The board has gotten along perfectly well for the previous ten years without you as ringmaster. Join in, but bring your own unique voice. Nobody needs you to precis anybody else's.

[Bland Unsight]

9 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

Perhaps jog on you are a little senistive

So I can't derail threads to talk about cars anymore......

Hold your horses Greg, I thought there was an established protocol for getting threads back on topic?

1. Someone mentions cars (possibly Greg)
2. Discussion moves to classic cars
3. Discussion moves to the inflation of prices paid for classic cars
4. Bruce compares the inflation of car prices to the inflation of house prices
5. Thread back on topic

This is one of the best anti-troll tactics the forum has. We can't have you downing tools.

[Greg Bowman]

14 hours ago, Beary McBearface said:

Hold your horses Greg, I thought there was an established protocol for getting threads back on topic?

1. Someone mentions cars (possibly Greg)
2. Discussion moves to classic cars
3. Discussion moves to the inflation of prices paid for classic cars
4. Bruce compares the inflation of car prices to the inflation of house prices
5. Thread back on topic

This is one of the best anti-troll tactics the forum has. We can't have you downing tools.

Sorry moment of laziness - apologies will still play my part in anti troll campaigns 

Saw a 200,000 mile classic shape Saab 900 aero advertised at £18k. Not even restored, even I took a breath 

Some clever money saying Audi A2’s are going  to go many in the hands of original owners, aluminium body interesting packaging. £3-5k

That feels better !??

Edited November 23, 2017 by Greg Bowman

[TheCountOfNowhere]

On 22/11/2017 at 12:06 PM, Option5 said:

One of the "posh" butchers has just gone under:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/muddy-boots-butchers-closes-down-after-owners-put-life-savings-into-firm-a3698141.html

Shoulda bought a house.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Greg Bowman said:

Sorry moment of laziness - apologies will still play my part in anti troll campaigns 

Saw a 200,000 mile classic shape Saab 900 aero advertised at £18k. Not even restored, even I took a breath 

Some clever money saying Audi A2’s are going  to go many in the hands of original owners, aluminium body interesting packaging. £3-5k

That feels better !??

What age was the Saab!? That's crazy regardless. People only pay those prices if they're convinced there'll be a greater fool (even if they don't describe their thought process as such).

Just like houses really.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Guest

[TheCountOfNowhere]

7 minutes ago, Grab_Some_Popcorn said:

What age was the Saab!? That's crazy regardless. People only pay those prices if they're convinced there'll be a greater fool (even if they don't describe their thought process as such).

Just like houses really.

People are now flocking to buy houses in London.....maybe they should cut road tax for car users.

[Bland Unsight]

On 22/11/2017 at 12:03 PM, Option5 said:

I don't report anybody, I can fight my own battles thank you.

Narrator: Two months later, exposed as none other than David "Beds made from old pallets" Price, Option5 quit housepricecrash and began a new life on the property forum at MoneySavingExpert.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Beary McBearface

[Bland Unsight]

46 minutes ago, Grab_Some_Popcorn said:

What age was the Saab!? That's crazy regardless. People only pay those prices if they're convinced there'll be a greater fool (even if they don't describe their thought process as such).

Just like houses really.

That's how we do it.

But it's funny you should mention rising house prices because just the other day I saw an article on Bloomberg about the house prices in a major conurbation in the South East being "battered". I'd love to dig out a quote but I can't remember which city it was so I'm having a devil of a time tracking down the article.

[Option5]

59 minutes ago, Beary McBearface said:

Narrator: Two months later, exposed as none other than David "Beds made from old pallets" Price, Option5 quit housepricecrash and began a new life on the property forum at MoneySavingExpert.

I haven't got a clue what you mean by that, is it an attempt at humour ?

[thewig]

30 minutes ago, Option5 said:

I haven't got a clue what you mean by that, is it an attempt at humour ?

Pricey is a renowned DEBTjunkie scumbag over at povertylater, sour old bast*rd even by DEBTjunkie standards

 

the story goes that pricey snapped up a joblot of condemned ex council flats at asking price +25%, did em up himself, made a load of beds out of pallets then sat back and watched the shekels roll in 

 

(he's also going bankrupt)

[Greg Bowman]

12 hours ago, Grab_Some_Popcorn said:

What age was the Saab!? That's crazy regardless. People only pay those prices if they're convinced there'll be a greater fool (even if they don't describe their thought process as such).

Just like houses really.

92 and yep crazy 

[TheCountOfNowhere]

Will be interesting to see what the headlines for London over the next 6 months.

From battered to Booming

or Battered to bust.

 

 

[Option5]

14 hours ago, thewig said:

Pricey is a renowned DEBTjunkie scumbag over at povertylater, sour old bast*rd even by DEBTjunkie standards

 

the story goes that pricey snapped up a joblot of condemned ex council flats at asking price +25%, did em up himself, made a load of beds out of pallets then sat back and watched the shekels roll in 

 

(he's also going bankrupt)

OK got it thanks, it was an attempted insult

[Si1]

3 hours ago, Option5 said:

OK got it thanks, it was an attempted insult

You mean one that you attempted to understand?

[Option5]

3 hours ago, Si1 said:

You mean one that you attempted to understand?

Quite

[Bland Unsight]

7 hours ago, Option5 said:

OK got it thanks, it was an attempted insult

Narrator: Unwittingly aping both the army of trolls that had preceded him and the hordes that would later follow, acting entirely without even the faintest trace of mirth, Option5 selected the Laughing Out Loud emoticon from the menu.

[longgone]

On 11/22/2017 at 12:06 PM, Option5 said:

One of the "posh" butchers has just gone under:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/muddy-boots-butchers-closes-down-after-owners-put-life-savings-into-firm-a3698141.html

meat is meat. quality meat and a rubbish cook would result in the same conclusion as that business.  luxury items first thing to go.

[MARTINX9]

16 hours ago, longgone said:

meat is meat. quality meat and a rubbish cook would result in the same conclusion as that business.  luxury items first thing to go.

I would never shop at a charcuterie - unless I am actually in a French speaking country! A butchers is a butchers - and as you say meat is meat.

[longgone]

5 hours ago, MARTINX9 said:

I would never shop at a charcuterie - unless I am actually in a French speaking country! A butchers is a butchers - and as you say meat is meat.

If you are in london have a wonder up wardour street in soho and you can sample the delights of the most expensive deli/charcuterie i have ever seen . 

£10 for some jamon bits in a paper bag, rich man`s pork scratchings.  They seem to have plenty of trade mind you. hipsters venturing out maybe. 

[winkie]

36 minutes ago, longgone said:

If you are in london have a wonder up wardour street in soho and you can sample the delights of the most expensive deli/charcuterie i have ever seen . 

£10 for some jamon bits in a paper bag, rich man`s pork scratchings.  They seem to have plenty of trade mind you. hipsters venturing out maybe. 

Some people will never know the value of money because they have never earned it.....for the price of that pork speciality slice they could buy a flight to a place that offered the ultimate best for a fraction of that price.....there is a big wide world out there where true value and quality and fantastic feeling can be had......some will always pay the highest price for convenience, extravagance and flash opulence, they think if they pay more they get more, when far better can be had for less.