Will! Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 (edited) 22 hours ago, onlooker said: The debt paid for the sewer upgrades, the Thames super sewer 28 minutes ago, sexton said: https://www.tideway.london/ Thanks. https://www.tideway.london/about-us/our-delivery-partners/ Quote Thames Water's wastewater customers are paying for the Thames Tideway Tunnel through their bills Edited April 1 by Will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlooker Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 25 minutes ago, Will! said: Thanks. https://www.tideway.london/about-us/our-delivery-partners/ Thames Water's wastewater customers are paying for the Thames Tideway Tunnel through their bills Seems to be some confusion here. The customer bills pay not only for services provided, but also the interest on past borrowings used to build infrastructure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 12 hours ago, Will! said: Thames Water didn’t do the Thames Tideway Tunnel (super sewer). That was Bazalgette. The Bazalgette sewerage system was clearly a vast improvement on previous, but at the end of the day all it did was pump sewage further downstream. This kept sewage away from populated areas (back then) but there was still raw sewage going into the Thames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 3 hours ago, kzb said: The Bazalgette sewerage system was clearly a vast improvement on previous, but at the end of the day all it did was pump sewage further downstream. This kept sewage away from populated areas (back then) but there was still raw sewage going into the Thames. Sorry, I meant Bazalgette Tunnel Limited. https://www.tideway.london/corporate-info/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 4 minutes ago, Will! said: Sorry, I meant Bazalgette Tunnel Limited. https://www.tideway.london/corporate-info/ The key point is who is ultimately paying for it, and how: Thames Water's wastewater customers are paying for the Thames Tideway Tunnel through their bills, with the process for setting customer bills determined by Ofwat. Once completed, Thames Water will operate the tunnel as an integral part of the London sewerage network, while Tideway will be responsible for its day-to-day maintenance. Average annual household bills will rise by no more than £25 a year as a result of the project, before inflation. On the "partners", this is all part of why everything is so expensive and slow. The whole point seems to be avoiding responsibility for anything except for collection of large sums of money. Any company that actually does any real work is well down the food chain. This is how it works I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Larry Posted April 1 Share Posted April 1 Scotland doesn't seem to have this problem but then its water is nationalized and doesn't need to put shareholder profit before people , likewise its train service which isn't having strikes or its junior doctors who it treats respectfully and pays properly . Then again the Thatcherite mantra of greed is good is a very English way of thinking . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Thames Water reportedly owes Chinese banks as Fitch downgrades rating Another update on Thames Water’s lenders: two Chinese state-owned banks are among the companies that are owed £190m by the UK’s biggest water company, the Financial Times has reported. The FT reported that Chinese state-owned Bank of China, and Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) were lenders, as well as Allied Irish Banks and Dutch lender ING, citing people familiar with the matter. The debts mean that the two Chinese state-owned companies could end up as shareholders of Thames Water if its parent company is unable to repay the loan. Fitch Ratings, an influential debt rating agency, on Thursday said it had downgraded the debt of Thames Water’s parent company. Fitch wrote that even if the lenders do agree to extend Kemble Water Finance Limited’s debts, it would probably still constitute a default. What happens after that would depend on the terms of the debt – and what security the lenders demanded in exchange for the money. Fitch said: With Kemble’s shareholders not injecting the £500m of equity into Thames Water Utilities Limited expected for end-March 2024, and Kemble considering it not possible currently to fulfil upcoming interest payments, we believe that a downgrade to [restricted default] has become highly likely. Even assuming that lenders will agree to amend and extend the £190m loan due on 30 April 2024, this agreement would probably constitute a distressed debt exchange under our criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Chinese sovereign wealth fund the Chinese Investment Corporation owns 8.7% of Kemble Water Holdings Ltd. Two Chinese state owned banks have lent money to Kemble Water Finance Ltd. It doesn't look like anyone is going to win this gamble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Kemble Water Finance has issued a formal notice of default on its debt to its bondholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Teardrop Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 What is it with this government , operation timber FFS!!! https://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/247900/business-as-usual-says-thames-water-is-that-a-good-thing.aspx "Thames Water's balance sheet has been stressed because of its significant debt load, with approximately £15.7 billion of debt at the utility and another £2.4 billion at intermediate and holding companies," say Tom Li, senior vice president and sector lead for corporate ratings, energy and natural resources, and Chloe Blais, assistant vice president for european corporate ratings, energy and natural resources "We note the UK government has been preparing an emergency plan, codenamed 'Operation Timber' if it needs to temporarily take over the business under a SAR. In the event Kemble Water defaults on its £190 million debt obligation in April, investor sentiment in the UK water sector could turn negative and sector funding costs could rise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Millions of customers, a captive market, all paying hundreds of pounds a year. It's a bit like Transport for London this. Huge gross income from "customers", with no real choice to go elsewhere, can charge what they want. Yet they've no money left. There must be so many snouts in the troughs in these organisations it is untrue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Teardrop Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Plenty of Rishi's mates in the city salivating at the fees they will earn in sorting the debt and then refloating this turd. Will make Michelle Mones grift look like small potatoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 If Rishi is going to lean on Ofwat then he’s leaving it a bit late. Although a conspiracy theorist might think he’s allowing the bond prices to be depressed as much as possible for maximum bounce if and when Ofwat relaxes Thames Water’s obligations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 (edited) https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/governance/our-structure#:~:text=Thames Water is part of,funds and sovereign wealth funds. Thames Water ownership structure !!! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/06/thames-water-funding-crisis-key-players Thames Water funding crisis: the key players in the row over its future Edited April 6 by Dweller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 6 hours ago, Dweller said: https://www.thameswater.co.uk/about-us/governance/our-structure#:~:text=Thames Water is part of,funds and sovereign wealth funds. Thames Water ownership structure !!! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/06/thames-water-funding-crisis-key-players Yeah, Thames Water was one of the later privatisations, that couldn’t make sense for a regulated utility and relied on brinkmanship with the regulator and ever increasing debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 WTF - whose problem is this?? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/14/thames-water-is-everyones-problem-and-time-is-running-out-to-fix-it So grim is the outlook for bondholders at Thames’ operating company that the Investment Association, the trade body for fund managers, has already issued a rallying call to Thames’ lenders, laying the groundwork for intensive lobbying of the government and, ultimately, potential legal action. This work is only preliminary for now but it indicates the potential fightback against Ofwat and the Treasury by investors should Thames’ entire operation run aground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angry Capitalist Posted April 14 Share Posted April 14 36 minutes ago, Dweller said: WTF - whose problem is this?? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/14/thames-water-is-everyones-problem-and-time-is-running-out-to-fix-it So grim is the outlook for bondholders at Thames’ operating company that the Investment Association, the trade body for fund managers, has already issued a rallying call to Thames’ lenders, laying the groundwork for intensive lobbying of the government and, ultimately, potential legal action. This work is only preliminary for now but it indicates the potential fightback against Ofwat and the Treasury by investors should Thames’ entire operation run aground. The bondholders deserve nothing. Same for the shareholders. The company has what? Over £15 million of debts? If the shareholders have not sold by now there is no hope for them. A water company that serves 10 million people which has over £15 million of debts is insolvent. Plain and simple. Watching this one with interest. This story is not going to go away that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpg50000 Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 6 hours ago, The Angry Capitalist said: The bondholders deserve nothing. Same for the shareholders. The company has what? Over £15 million of debts? If the shareholders have not sold by now there is no hope for them. A water company that serves 10 million people which has over £15 million of debts is insolvent. Plain and simple. Watching this one with interest. This story is not going to go away that's for sure. It's 14, not 15. Oh, and it's billions not millions..... 😮 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie Teardrop Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Its about a grand of debt per person in their catchment area. Average family with 2 kids = 4000 debt that needs to be paid from your bill over the next 10 years. Including interest and investment in new infrastructure means water bills in the SE need to be going up at least 500 a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freki Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 10 hours ago, Dweller said: WTF - whose problem is this?? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/14/thames-water-is-everyones-problem-and-time-is-running-out-to-fix-it So grim is the outlook for bondholders at Thames’ operating company that the Investment Association, the trade body for fund managers, has already issued a rallying call to Thames’ lenders, laying the groundwork for intensive lobbying of the government and, ultimately, potential legal action. This work is only preliminary for now but it indicates the potential fightback against Ofwat and the Treasury by investors should Thames’ entire operation run aground. Moral hazard? The government should not intervene. The business has been provided clear guidelines on the level of public services the company was expected to deliver. They loaded on debt and gave a kid of those to shareholders and bondholders. The gravy train has to stop. If a new company is appointed hopefully they will do better than mismanage the SE water network Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will! Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 10 hours ago, Dweller said: WTF - whose problem is this?? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/14/thames-water-is-everyones-problem-and-time-is-running-out-to-fix-it So grim is the outlook for bondholders at Thames’ operating company that the Investment Association, the trade body for fund managers, has already issued a rallying call to Thames’ lenders, laying the groundwork for intensive lobbying of the government and, ultimately, potential legal action. This work is only preliminary for now but it indicates the potential fightback against Ofwat and the Treasury by investors should Thames’ entire operation run aground. I suspect a large proportion of the Graun's readership are members of the Universities Superannuation Scheme, which is set to lose its stake in Thames Water. https://www.uss.co.uk/news-and-views/latest-news/2020/06/07242017_uss-acquires-a-minority-stake-in-thames-water-utilities-limited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Angry Capitalist Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 5 hours ago, dpg50000 said: It's 14, not 15. Oh, and it's billions not millions..... 😮 Yes. I meant billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Sounds like a great idea. I think I might set up a company and run up £15 billion in debt and then look for investors. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/16/thames-water-to-ask-debt-markets-for-survival-plan-funding Thames Water to add to debt mountain in bid for survival Exclusive: Board to release turnaround proposals on Friday amid uncertainty over future of UK’s biggest and most heavily-indebted water firm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dweller Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/18/whitehall-blueprint-for-thames-water-nationalisation-could-see-state-take-on-bulk-of-15bn-debt Thames Water nationalisation plan could move bulk of £15bn debt to state Exclusive: Under Whitehall blueprint for water company some lenders could lose up to 40% of their money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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