zugzwang Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 hours ago, pig said: Lol this entire post is an evasion - serving as added confirmation that you DNGAF about the Palestinians. For you the more dead Palestinians the better, for you the only value in their lives is in their deaths and how they can ghoulishly serve the greater glory of Zugcon supremacism. More rhetorical facetiousness! Palestinians are being slaughtered in their hundreds every day and still you'd rather crack wise than admit you were wrong. What a thing the internet is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull Mike Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Events in Israel will give birth to so much more elsewhere in the World. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 8 minutes ago, zugzwang said: More rhetorical facetiousness! Palestinians are being slaughtered in their hundreds every day and still you'd rather crack wise than admit you were wrong. What a thing the internet is! 🤷♂️ Oh really ? wrong about what exactly ? What I've pointed out about your hankering after Palestinian slaughter is not pleasant and tbf I wasn't expecting a coherent response. But bearing in mind the black and white evidence of your crazy posting on Russias attempted genocide of Ukraine over the last couple of years, it is entirely fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 6 hours ago, Staffsknot said: Jon in a nutshell you are not applying the definitions in the way they are intended or literally they become meaningless as every war becomes a genocide. Here is the Article on Genocide in full https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/genocide-conv-1948/article-2?activeTab=undefined Here is the crucial context you missed "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". It is crucial because it is intent to destroy a protected group, not incidental, not the destroying of their homes for any purpose but to destroy the people. Rwanda was genocide not because of how people were killed but why they were killed in the first place. Is the war solely to destroy Palestinians, is the aim of the war to destroy Palestinians or is it to destroy Hamas? Are Palestinians dying because the plan is to eradicate Palestinians or because there is a war going on in a densely populated area? Are people being traumatised because that is the intent to traumatisedand destroy the Palestinians or is it because there is an actual war raging in Gaza? Taking you back to the Blitz analogy - all the criteriayou listed were met that you say is met in Gaza but you agree it wasn't genocide. But add in the context I just listed and the Blitz is no longer a genocide as it was not a plan to destroy the British as a nationality, it was a war crime. I can't make it any plainer than this - if you apply those criteria without the intent context then every war is a genocide and genocide convention becomes meaningless. So you need a state intending to eradicate or destroy a protected group in whole or in part before you assess any of those 5 points. If you are saying Israel's intent is to kill Palestinians for being Palestinians then they are doing a crapper job than Rwandans managed with machetes and Israel has air power. If the stated intent is to destroy Palestinians the body count is horrifically far too low for that to being done. So somewhere down the line something doesn't add up. That is why I whole heartedly agree to war crimes being commited but cannot agree this is a genocide. You see, I think the intent is to destroy the group, not by bombs alone (this would be stupid) - but by: Destroying all healthcare facilities. Causing famine and disease by siege. Denying aid. You do know the the UNWRA terrorist allegations are simply that - Israel has presented no clear evidence yet. Razing more than 55% of the country. Gaza is now judged as uninhabitable. Displacing 90% of the population. The majority of those killed are women and children Many comments from Israeli officials confirming their intent - including Netanyahu himself (see links) - this being the strongest evidence submitted to the ICJ by SA Denying power, food, water, medicine, communications, fuel, escape from area The point is, the damage to the group is so far just the tip of the iceberg - it's inevitable over the next year or two, many many more Palestinians will have died due to the Israeli actions so far. Destroying the group by forced dispersal is a dead cert. Most of the world think it's genocide and the call for a ceasefire is getting louder every day. IOW, if it's not 'technically genocide now - it will be over the next few months. The evidence for intent is overwhelming. ICJ genocide case: Israeli rhetoric against Palestinians central to South Africa's case | AP News https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724 'Erase Gaza': How genocidal rhetoric is normalised in Israel https://www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israel Intent in the genocide case against Israel is not hard to prove | Opinions | Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove Western silence over Israelis’ genocidal comments speaks volumes | Arab News https://www.arabnews.com/node/2400096 ‘Wipe Gaza off the face of the earth’: The statements made by Israeli politicians on which South Africa supports its genocide case | International | EL PAÍS English https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html Gaza Genocide Case at the ICJ Has an Unwitting Ally: Israeli Politicians - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-04/ty-article/.premium/gaza-genocide-case-at-the-icj-has-an-unwitting-ally-israeli-politicians/0000018c-d479-d4e1-ad8f-fcf93ae90000 Israeli official condemned for genocidal "no such thing as Palestinians" claim | Salon.com https://www.salon.com/2023/03/20/israeli-official-condemned-for-genocidal-no-such-thing-as-palestinians-claim_partner/ Dehumanising Palestinians: Israel’s Rhetoric of Genocide | Daily Star https://www.thedailystar.net/opinion/views/news/dehumanising-palestinians-israels-rhetoric-genocide-3457346 Israeli politician who advocated genocide appointed justice minister https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-politician-who-advocated-genocide-appointed-justice-minister (5) A compilation of all the statements made with genocidal intent by Israeli officials since October 7 : islam 'Repetition Says a Lot About Israel's Genocidal Intent in Gaza': South Africa at ICJ https://thewire.in/world/israel-south-africa-genocidal-intent-gaza-icj Lamola rejects Israel's defence that 'genocidal' quotes do not inform govt policy | News24 https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/government/lamola-rejects-israels-defence-that-genocidal-quotes-do-not-inform-govt-policy-20240112 Israel Isn't Committing a Genocide, but It Has Genocidaires - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-05/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-isnt-committing-a-genocide-but-it-has-genocidaires/0000018c-d643-daf6-a5df-d77fccc00000 ========================================== Israel has provided no evidence for Hamas-UNRWA claims: head https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-has-provided-no-evidence-hamas-unrwa-claims-head David Cameron has fallen for Israel’s dodgy dossier on Unrwa | Middle East Eye https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/defunding-unrwa-britain-cameron-falls-israel-dodgy-dossier-again ========================================= Gaza Is Being Made Unlivable | TIME https://time.com/6549448/gaza-shelter-unlivable/ ‘Uninhabitable’ Gaza will face environmental disaster for decades after war https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/uninhabitable-gaza-will-face-environmental-disaster-for-decades-after-war-16291384 Widespread destruction in Gaza puts concept of ‘domicide’ in focus | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/07/widespread-destruction-in-gaza-puts-concept-of-domicide-in-focus Gaza in Ruins: The Largest Palestinian City in the World Will Soon Be Uninhabitable - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-15/ty-article/.premium/gaza-in-ruins-the-largest-palestinian-city-in-the-world-soon-uninhabitable/0000018b-d3a4-d423-affb-f3a70ff40000 ================= Netanyahu's words The reference to "Amalekite" or "Amolek" is by far one of the worst statements I've ever heard a state official utter. In the atheistic Western world the vast majority of people are not going to understand this biblical reference to herem. Most Muslims aren't going to understand it either because there is nothing equivalent in Islam. Herem is the wholesale slaughter of innocents as described in Joshua 6:21 You shall exterminate everything that is in the city, both man, woman, young, old, the ox, sheep and donkey with the edge of the sword. Slaughter of all innocents is commanded by the Torah in Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 20:17 and 1 Samuel 15. Also Misvot 528 commands that you shall leave none alive And Misvot 604 command that destroy the seed of Amolek / Amalekite, destroy them utterly What the Israeli prime minister is publicly calling for is slaughter of every Palestinian, since, as he himself says, he sees Palestinians as Amalekite / Amolek. Once they have killed Amolek it supposedly ushers in the Age of the Jewish Messiah (not Isa / Jesus as) then their Third Temple can be built (and it's the Messiah that builds it). Literally, according to the Israeli prime minister, who believes Palestinians are Amolek, he is quite literally attempting to usher in the Jewish Messiah by offering a massive human sacrifice (by the killing of all Amolek). A good reference for this and an explanation of what the herem that is being called for is Making sense of old testament genocide by Christopher Hofreiter" Amolek or Amalekite mean exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, Staffsknot said: No its true you jut don't understand IHL and you are desperately trying to twist this post to you twisted world fantasy Genocide cannot be a side effect it has to be a deliberate intent. You can't accidentally genocide smeone and only someone with a child's grasp of IHL would try and claim that in anyway relates to responsibility to prevent and prosecute those committing 'the act of genocide' which is a bloody deliberate act! Also China has same reservation agreements as US on ICJ jurisdiction so shoe that up your hypocrit pipe and smoke it No. You're utterly mistaken. The South African lawyers went to great lengths to establish how exacting the demands are on signatories to the Convention to prevent the commission of genocide. You would know this if you'd actually read the transcripts of the trial. Like Pig, it seems you are prepared to make up any old flannel rather than admit you are wrong. I wonder if he too isn't employed by the state to fabricate and deceive? Quote Duty to Prevent Genocide The obligation to prevent genocide, as the most serious crime under international law, is a fundamental principle enshrined in the Genocide Convention, which was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948. The Convention defines genocide as acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. It places a legal duty on states to prevent and punish acts of genocide and to protect individuals and groups from such atrocities. The tale of terror: Since the start of Israel’s current bombing campaign on October 7, the Gaza Strip has become an enclave of death, displacement and destruction. An estimated 33,000 people have been killed, including 12,660 children and 7,000 missing and presumed dead beneath the rubble. More than 65,000 Palestinians have been wounded, many with lost limbs and other permanent disabilities. The IDF has targeted doctors, humanitarian workers, artists, scientists and professors, along with their families. Entire families have been obliterated. More journalists have been killed in four months—an estimated 125 so far—than during any other war, irrespective of length. The scope, scale and speed of Israel’s bombing campaign constitutes the most intense military assault anywhere since World War II. There is no reciprocal high-intensity violence because Gaza has no army. Large portions of the 141-square-mile strip have been cleansed of their inhabitants. Almost 85 percent of the population (2 million people) has been displaced. Over a quarter million homes have been totally or partially destroyed in what may constitute 'domicide' - a newly emerging crime against humanity which pertains to massive destruction of housing and basic infrastructure in residential areas. The destruction includes schools, hospitals and clinics, mosques, churches, heritage sites, factories, libraries, archives and cultural centers. All of Gaza’s universities have been leveled. Even the dead are not safe. Military bulldozers have been employed to destroy cemeteries and soldiers have desecrated graves. At the start of this war, Israel exploited its capacity to exercise absolute control over aid-dependent Palestinians by cutting off Gaza’s access to food, medicine, fuel, electricity and telecommunications. Four months in, the food system, like the healthcare system and the infrastructure for clean water and sanitation, has completely collapsed. Man-made famine conditions have reached epidemic proportions. The South African application to the ICJ is an 84-page masterclass for understanding the Genocide Convention and its applicability to what Israel is doing in Gaza. The document contains abundant details of the cumulatively genocidal consequences of Israel’s military actions since October 7 to kill and make life impossible. It situates these charges in the “broader context of Israel’s conduct towards Palestinians during its 75-year-long apartheid, its 56-year-long belligerent occupation of Palestinian territory and its 16-year-long blockade of Gaza.” Anticipating the outraged responses of Israel and its supporters that the genocide allegations were pro-Hamas and/or antisemitic and failed to recognize Israel’s right of self-defense, the first paragraph states: “South Africa unequivocally condemns all violations of international law by all parties, including the direct targeting of Israeli civilians and other nationals and hostage-taking by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups. No armed attack on a State’s territory no matter how serious—even an attack involving atrocity crime - can, however, provide any possible justification for, or defence to, breaches of the 1948 Convention.” Edited February 6 by zugzwang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantNavy Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 hours ago, Staffsknot said: For a genocide to be being perpetrated it has to be deliberate and not a side effect. This is part and parcel of the whole point of the convention because when you look at almost any war you'd tag it as genocide if you don't actually stick to the written law. Oh shut the f*** up. Pure mental gymnastics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 20 minutes ago, pig said: 🤷♂️ Oh really ? wrong about what exactly ? What I've pointed out about your hankering after Palestinian slaughter is not pleasant and tbf I wasn't expecting a coherent response. But bearing in mind the black and white evidence of your crazy posting on Russias attempted genocide of Ukraine over the last couple of years, it is entirely fair. The Russian case against the Ukraine is anything but black and white. Outrages and provocations have been undertaken by both sides. Establishing whether genocide has been committed by either side will be frankly impossible now after two years of war. Let the ICJ deliberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 15 minutes ago, pig said: 🤷♂️ Oh really ? wrong about what exactly ? What I've pointed out about your hankering after Palestinian slaughter is not pleasant and tbf I wasn't expecting a coherent response. But bearing in mind the black and white evidence of your crazy posting on Russias attempted genocide of Ukraine over the last couple of years, it is entirely fair. Until Zugz condemns Putin as well, his argument is deeply flawed. The instigators and consequences of both conflicts are so similar - he is the other side of the 'support Israel no matter what' coin. I have never understood how he runs roughshod over what happens to the ordinary people. You CANNOT defend Putin and Xi - while condemning Biden and Netanyahu. You must condemn them all to make any sense. I am expecting Taiwan to look like Mariupol and Gaza if China invades - and despite 98% of its population not wanting the CCP to run (ruin) their lives. I'd be much more convinced by Zugz if he gave more of a shit about ALL the victims of these wars. His stance is that of very drunken sailor rolling down the street, lurching dangerously from one side of it to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 9 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The Russian case against the Ukraine is anything but black and white. Outrages and provocations have been undertaken by both sides. Establishing whether genocide has been committed by either side will be frankly impossible now after two years of war. Let the ICJ deliberate. It's black and white. Unless you are stupidly suggestible. Opinion | This Is the World If Ukraine Loses - POLITICO https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/13/russia-ukraine-war-west-funding-00131638 The failure of Russian propaganda https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/donbaspropaganda Ukraine on Fire - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_on_Fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull Mike Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 TUCKER IN MOSCOW ITS ON BABY ! https://nitter.holo-mix.com/Megatron_ron/status/1754943280083616020#m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull Mike Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 10 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Until Zugz condemns Putin as well, his argument is deeply flawed. The instigators and consequences of both conflicts are so similar - he is the other side of the 'support Israel no matter what' coin. I have never understood how he runs roughshod over what happens to the ordinary people. You CANNOT defend Putin and Xi - while condemning Biden and Netanyahu. You must condemn them all to make any sense. I am expecting Taiwan to look like Mariupol and Gaza if China invades - and despite 98% of its population not wanting the CCP to run (ruin) their lives. I'd be much more convinced by Zugz if he gave more of a shit about ALL the victims of these wars. His stance is that of very drunken sailor rolling down the street, lurching dangerously from one side of it to the other. In theory yes it is wildly drunken - but that is why in reality its highly unlikely he actually GAF about the slaughter other than if in his head it delivers him perceived geopolitical gain. Its actually a simplistic 'hegemaniac' anti-west stance - as consistent as an Iranian drone targeting the ME or Ukraine. The human cost does not matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 34 minutes ago, zugzwang said: The Russian case against the Ukraine is anything but black and white. Outrages and provocations have been undertaken by both sides. Establishing whether genocide has been committed by either side will be frankly impossible now after two years of war. Let the ICJ deliberate. 🤦♂️😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Larry Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 46 minutes ago, jonb2 said: The evidence for intent is overwhelming. 100% , I agree with the rest of your post as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maghull Mike Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 https://nitter.holo-mix.com/kennardmatt/status/1754968096236830897#m Neither party wanted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 On 04/02/2024 at 19:13, zugzwang said: But China isn't at war with the Ukriane! The Chinese have sought repeatedly to de-escalate the conflict and broker a ceasefire. Yes, the ceasefire being that Ukraine just secedes their territory to the aggressor. Very convenient for your motherland who will have similar goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 13 hours ago, pig said: But in that eventuality that is what Israel will claim, they'll just say - at a state level, like the SM circles and media they're trying to groom - its such a shame but it was all Hamas's fault... That's not how it works, you can't have a state policy without it linking back or someone in the chain threatened with jail saying it was. It doesn't have to be explicitly written down if a force believes they have been authorised to act in that way it is therefore the state failing to prevent the act. Just for info the Israeli courts and IDF are currently investigating its own troops for brreaches of IHL involving excess civilian casualties or destruction of civilian objects. This information leaked out by investigative journalists not the Israelis announcing it and it has not gone down well that it has got out. Some of these investigations predate the ICJ case being raised apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 11 hours ago, jonb2 said: You see, I think the intent is to destroy the group, not by bombs alone (this would be stupid) - but by: Destroying all healthcare facilities. Causing famine and disease by siege. Denying aid. You do know the the UNWRA terrorist allegations are simply that - Israel has presented no clear evidence yet. Razing more than 55% of the country. Gaza is now judged as uninhabitable. Displacing 90% of the population. The majority of those killed are women and children Many comments from Israeli officials confirming their intent - including Netanyahu himself (see links) - this being the strongest evidence submitted to the ICJ by SA Denying power, food, water, medicine, communications, fuel, escape from area The point is, the damage to the group is so far just the tip of the iceberg - it's inevitable over the next year or two, many many more Palestinians will have died due to the Israeli actions so far. Destroying the group by forced dispersal is a dead cert. Most of the world think it's genocide and the call for a ceasefire is getting louder every day. IOW, if it's not 'technically genocide now - it will be over the next few months. The evidence for intent is overwhelming. ICJ genocide case: Israeli rhetoric against Palestinians central to South Africa's case | AP News https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724 'Erase Gaza': How genocidal rhetoric is normalised in Israel https://www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israel Intent in the genocide case against Israel is not hard to prove | Opinions | Al Jazeera https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove Western silence over Israelis’ genocidal comments speaks volumes | Arab News https://www.arabnews.com/node/2400096 ‘Wipe Gaza off the face of the earth’: The statements made by Israeli politicians on which South Africa supports its genocide case | International | EL PAÍS English https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html Gaza Genocide Case at the ICJ Has an Unwitting Ally: Israeli Politicians - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-04/ty-article/.premium/gaza-genocide-case-at-the-icj-has-an-unwitting-ally-israeli-politicians/0000018c-d479-d4e1-ad8f-fcf93ae90000 Israeli official condemned for genocidal "no such thing as Palestinians" claim | Salon.com https://www.salon.com/2023/03/20/israeli-official-condemned-for-genocidal-no-such-thing-as-palestinians-claim_partner/ Dehumanising Palestinians: Israel’s Rhetoric of Genocide | Daily Star https://www.thedailystar.net/opinion/views/news/dehumanising-palestinians-israels-rhetoric-genocide-3457346 Israeli politician who advocated genocide appointed justice minister https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-politician-who-advocated-genocide-appointed-justice-minister (5) A compilation of all the statements made with genocidal intent by Israeli officials since October 7 : islam 'Repetition Says a Lot About Israel's Genocidal Intent in Gaza': South Africa at ICJ https://thewire.in/world/israel-south-africa-genocidal-intent-gaza-icj Lamola rejects Israel's defence that 'genocidal' quotes do not inform govt policy | News24 https://www.news24.com/news24/politics/government/lamola-rejects-israels-defence-that-genocidal-quotes-do-not-inform-govt-policy-20240112 Israel Isn't Committing a Genocide, but It Has Genocidaires - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-05/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-isnt-committing-a-genocide-but-it-has-genocidaires/0000018c-d643-daf6-a5df-d77fccc00000 ========================================== Israel has provided no evidence for Hamas-UNRWA claims: head https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-has-provided-no-evidence-hamas-unrwa-claims-head David Cameron has fallen for Israel’s dodgy dossier on Unrwa | Middle East Eye https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/defunding-unrwa-britain-cameron-falls-israel-dodgy-dossier-again ========================================= Gaza Is Being Made Unlivable | TIME https://time.com/6549448/gaza-shelter-unlivable/ ‘Uninhabitable’ Gaza will face environmental disaster for decades after war https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/uninhabitable-gaza-will-face-environmental-disaster-for-decades-after-war-16291384 Widespread destruction in Gaza puts concept of ‘domicide’ in focus | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/07/widespread-destruction-in-gaza-puts-concept-of-domicide-in-focus Gaza in Ruins: The Largest Palestinian City in the World Will Soon Be Uninhabitable - Israel News - Haaretz.com https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-15/ty-article/.premium/gaza-in-ruins-the-largest-palestinian-city-in-the-world-soon-uninhabitable/0000018b-d3a4-d423-affb-f3a70ff40000 ================= Netanyahu's words The reference to "Amalekite" or "Amolek" is by far one of the worst statements I've ever heard a state official utter. In the atheistic Western world the vast majority of people are not going to understand this biblical reference to herem. Most Muslims aren't going to understand it either because there is nothing equivalent in Islam. Herem is the wholesale slaughter of innocents as described in Joshua 6:21 You shall exterminate everything that is in the city, both man, woman, young, old, the ox, sheep and donkey with the edge of the sword. Slaughter of all innocents is commanded by the Torah in Joshua 6:21, Deuteronomy 20:17 and 1 Samuel 15. Also Misvot 528 commands that you shall leave none alive And Misvot 604 command that destroy the seed of Amolek / Amalekite, destroy them utterly What the Israeli prime minister is publicly calling for is slaughter of every Palestinian, since, as he himself says, he sees Palestinians as Amalekite / Amolek. Once they have killed Amolek it supposedly ushers in the Age of the Jewish Messiah (not Isa / Jesus as) then their Third Temple can be built (and it's the Messiah that builds it). Literally, according to the Israeli prime minister, who believes Palestinians are Amolek, he is quite literally attempting to usher in the Jewish Messiah by offering a massive human sacrifice (by the killing of all Amolek). A good reference for this and an explanation of what the herem that is being called for is Making sense of old testament genocide by Christopher Hofreiter" Amolek or Amalekite mean exactly the same. No the case for intent is not overwhelming Jon, you have loud mouth rhetoric and again if you apply the law properly then you don't have nearly as clearcut a case as you think. You have to apply IHL dispationately, which is why even though I despise what Russia is doing in Ukraine I can and do say the majority of their actions are war crimes not genocide. They have committed acts that do fall under this category but mostly have committed war crimes. I have real issues with the way Israel has conducted itself but again these would fall under war crimes - and even the IDF and courts are investigating that it has been leaked. The fact you are having to say - well its not bombs that are the method of genocide after devoting pages to saying its a genocide because Israel is bombing and using artillery on people without weapons is proof you are ( rightly as most humans would naturally do) looking at this through an emotional lens rather than what the law will have to do. Women and children dying in large numbers is not evidence of genocide it is evidence that they and the elderly are normally the most vulnerable and highest casualty civilian group in any war. The UNRWA allegations were put to UNRWA head, he fired individuals as the evidence was compelling. He also notified the donors. Israel did not inform the Western donors and was doorstepped allegedly by the Yanks wanting to know what they knew. At least two UNRWA staff interviewed on camera say they entered Israel on 7th October but claimed they went to see what was happening or 'calm things down'. Subsequently members of UNRWA have been targeted by drones as Israel is killing anyone it can locate as having crossed the border. Israel has refused to share its evidence of more than the 12 it handed over to UNRWA - it is using this wider list as a kill list. The fact it will not hand over the evidence of the wider group claims is being used to try and discredit the 12 who were instantly fired - the evidence presented to the UNRWA for them was enough to instantly fire them and launch an independent investigation into claims of wider group. Displacing civilians - again you can leave them in place and try and conduct a bombing / ground offensive around them, but that would breach IHL or take the collateral damage through the roof. Famine and diseas again are a byproduct of many wars where civilians are displaced from where there are resources and support networks to large numbers of people being in squalid conditions with overwhelmed healthcare and localised aid. By your definition Egypt is committing genocide for not allowing them to cross to safety - it isn't but that is how applying a loose definition lands you in a world of crap. Denying aid access - this one is a war crime but again would not constitute a genocide. It could be a crime against humanity but could be argued is not for the purpose of genocide and I do not believe it was for the purpose of genocide at all. Can I tack something on to this - I actually admire you for taking a principled stance on this and not falling into its a red vs blue, which there seem too few actually do on this / Ukr. But I have to approach this dispassionately as that is how IHL must be applied. It is why I have shouted down some things on the Ukraine thread and on this by both sides doing red vs blue stupidity. You are not one of them. Do not assume from what I am typing that I am applying a side to proceedings Edited February 7 by Staffsknot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsknot Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 11 hours ago, zugzwang said: No. You're utterly mistaken. The South African lawyers went to great lengths to establish how exacting the demands are on signatories to the Convention to prevent the commission of genocide. You would know this if you'd actually read the transcripts of the trial. Like Pig, it seems you are prepared to make up any old flannel rather than admit you are wrong. I wonder if he too isn't employed by the state to fabricate and deceive? The tale of terror: Since the start of Israel’s current bombing campaign on October 7, the Gaza Strip has become an enclave of death, displacement and destruction. An estimated 33,000 people have been killed, including 12,660 children and 7,000 missing and presumed dead beneath the rubble. More than 65,000 Palestinians have been wounded, many with lost limbs and other permanent disabilities. The IDF has targeted doctors, humanitarian workers, artists, scientists and professors, along with their families. Entire families have been obliterated. More journalists have been killed in four months—an estimated 125 so far—than during any other war, irrespective of length. The scope, scale and speed of Israel’s bombing campaign constitutes the most intense military assault anywhere since World War II. There is no reciprocal high-intensity violence because Gaza has no army. Large portions of the 141-square-mile strip have been cleansed of their inhabitants. Almost 85 percent of the population (2 million people) has been displaced. Over a quarter million homes have been totally or partially destroyed in what may constitute 'domicide' - a newly emerging crime against humanity which pertains to massive destruction of housing and basic infrastructure in residential areas. The destruction includes schools, hospitals and clinics, mosques, churches, heritage sites, factories, libraries, archives and cultural centers. All of Gaza’s universities have been leveled. Even the dead are not safe. Military bulldozers have been employed to destroy cemeteries and soldiers have desecrated graves. At the start of this war, Israel exploited its capacity to exercise absolute control over aid-dependent Palestinians by cutting off Gaza’s access to food, medicine, fuel, electricity and telecommunications. Four months in, the food system, like the healthcare system and the infrastructure for clean water and sanitation, has completely collapsed. Man-made famine conditions have reached epidemic proportions. The South African application to the ICJ is an 84-page masterclass for understanding the Genocide Convention and its applicability to what Israel is doing in Gaza. The document contains abundant details of the cumulatively genocidal consequences of Israel’s military actions since October 7 to kill and make life impossible. It situates these charges in the “broader context of Israel’s conduct towards Palestinians during its 75-year-long apartheid, its 56-year-long belligerent occupation of Palestinian territory and its 16-year-long blockade of Gaza.” Anticipating the outraged responses of Israel and its supporters that the genocide allegations were pro-Hamas and/or antisemitic and failed to recognize Israel’s right of self-defense, the first paragraph states: “South Africa unequivocally condemns all violations of international law by all parties, including the direct targeting of Israeli civilians and other nationals and hostage-taking by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups. No armed attack on a State’s territory no matter how serious—even an attack involving atrocity crime - can, however, provide any possible justification for, or defence to, breaches of the 1948 Convention.” Ah the wibble - read the case, I know IHL. Which site are you copy pasting a view from now because you know bob all about IHL. Talking of making things up Blinken is due in Israel to talk about a ceasefire... that thing you claimed he wasn't going to do and was in Israel giving $17bn 3 days ago. You make stuff up and you clearly know nothing of IHL... especially given your fondness of cheering on its breaking Edited February 7 by Staffsknot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blobsy Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Staffsknot said: Ah the wibble - read the case, I know IHL. Which site are you copy pasting a view from now because you know bob all about IHL. Talking of making things up Blinken is due in Israel to talk about a ceasefire... that thing you claimed he wasn't going to do and was in Israel giving $17bn 3 days ago. You make stuff up and you clearly know nothing of IHL... especially given your fondness of cheering on its breaking I appreciate you taking him on all the time @Staffsknot . I really wouldn't have the energy, the person is in cloud cuckoo land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 10 hours ago, dugsbody said: Yes, the ceasefire being that Ukraine just secedes their territory to the aggressor. Very convenient for your motherland who will have similar goals. My motherland? 😆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, Staffsknot said: Ah the wibble - read the case, I know IHL. Which site are you copy pasting a view from now because you know bob all about IHL. Talking of making things up Blinken is due in Israel to talk about a ceasefire... that thing you claimed he wasn't going to do and was in Israel giving $17bn 3 days ago. You make stuff up and you clearly know nothing of IHL... especially given your fondness of cheering on its breaking For the umpteenth time, you are wrong! A duty to prevent the prosecution of genocide is a definitional aspect of the Genocide Convention and incumbent on all signatories. Unlike you, I at least took the trouble to read the transcripts of the case! Palestinians are still being slaughtered indiscriminately every single day. There has been no ceasefire, a direct contravention of the ICJ's provisional measures adjudication. The US and UK govts are clearly complicit in Israel's numberless crimes against humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 24 minutes ago, Blobsy said: I appreciate you taking him on all the time @Staffsknot . I really wouldn't have the energy, the person is in cloud cuckoo land. Thanks for your contribution, Mr Blobby. It's genocide. No-one is confused or deceived except those whose purpose here is to confuse and deceive. More than 1,000 children have lost one or both legs since October 7 3 years old Died a toddler Abdul Rahman Abdullah Fayek Mahmoud (3 years old) Abdul Rahman Ahmed Essam Shaat (3 years old) Abdul Rahman Ahmed Marwan Abu Taim (3 years old) Abdul Rahman Deeb Abdullah Rifaat Abu Al-Qumsan (3 years old) Abdul Rahman Youssef Salah al-Din Abu Jadallah (3 years old) Abdullah Abdul Rahman Abdul Karim Al-Salak (3 years old) Abdullah Osama Khader Abu Suriya (3 years old) Adam Muhammad Mahmoud Abu Samra (3 years old) Adam Nader Harby Al-Helou (3 years old) Adam Rizq Jumaa Al-Nahal (3 years old) Adham Diaa Muhammad Al-Qahwaji (3 years old) Ahmed Amjad Majed Abu Odeh (3 years old) Ahmed Basil Ramadan Abed (3 years old) Ahmed Hakim Mahmoud Al-Helu (3 years old) Ahmed Hamto Ahmed Al-Satri (3 years old) Ahmed Ibrahim Ahmed Al-Sawalhi (3 years old) Ahmed Ismail Jumah Abu Zari’an (3 years old) Ahmed Jamal Adnan Al-Rayes (3 years old) Ahmed Mahmoud Ahmed Tabasi (3 years old) Ahmed Mahmoud Nabil Matar (3 years old) Ahmed Mohamed Abdel Hamid Ashour (3 years old) Ahmed Mohamed Abdel Rahim Haider (3 years old) Ahmed Raafat Mahmoud Al-Zein (3 years old) Ahmed Raed Nabil Farhat (3 years old) Ahmed Saeed Muhammad Al-Tahla (3 years old) Aisha Omar Mustafa Shehab (3 years old) Aisha Salah Al-Din Ismail Abu Shammala (3 years old) Alaa Alaa Niaz Nasir (3 years old) Ali Amer Ali Zaqout (3 years old) Ali Ismail Mahmoud Al-Derawi (3 years old) Ali Mahmoud Khalil Al-Shaer (3 years old) Ali Muhammad Ali Al-Mubayed (3 years old) Ali Muhammad Zakaria Al-Astal (3 years old) Alma Taha Amer Al-Majayda (3 years old) Amani Muhammad Abd al-Rahim al-Madhoun (3 years old) Amin Muhammad Amin Matar (3 years old) Amir Muhammad Jumah Dhahir (3 years old) Amira Muhammad Salim Al-Sawarka (3 years old) Amjad Khaled Kamal Rashwan (3 years old) Anas Muhannad Sami Aslim (3 years old) Aseel Muhammad Mazen Shaldan (3 years old) Asim Magdy Mustafa Ali (3 years old) Athal Qais Abdul Karim Al-Zahrani (3 years old) Ayman 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Jaber (3 years old) Zeina Muhammad Talal Al-Dahshan (3 years old) Zeina Nasser Hosni Moussa (3 years old) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 1 hour ago, zugzwang said: My motherland? 😆 Known by the rest of the world as Cloud Cuckoo Land on Planet Unicorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonguest Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 14 hours ago, MerchantNavy said: Oh shut the f*** up. Pure mental gymnastics. Translation: "My mind is made up please don't confuse me with facts or ask me to handle critical thinking of complex matters." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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