"Possibly the Worst Tax Avoidance Scheme Ever" - report on Property118's buy-to-let tax scheme

[regprentice]

45 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Not a single instance of any of the detriments predicted in Dan Neidle’s articles has ever happened in nearly 8 years on the structures we recommend. We estimate 15,000+ personal and corporate tax returns have been filed by clients who have used the Substantial Incorporation Structure.

Only another 12 to go and they are high n dry ....

15,000

thats actually a sizeable fraud. One of Dans examples states £115k of tax is underpaid. multiplied by 15000 thats almost £1.8Bn in underpaid tax.

He's prone to overstatement, so i'd take the 15000 number with a pinch of salt.... but if that numbers true then the magnitude of the scheme should result in a substantial custodial sentence.

 

[Ah-so]

On 14/10/2023 at 16:38, regprentice said:

Most if the articles posted indicate that P118 told their clients not to declare the scheme to HMRC and they even provided a draft wording 

i'd imagine that the properties flag on HMRCs radar when sold and the CGT crystallises  which is probably starting to happen now. 

HMRC have 20 years, they're never in a hurry but they generally get there.  

That's right. I followed this closely in the early days post S24 when Alexander was in overdrive pushing these schemes in collaboration with Cotswold Solicitors. It was reiterated that you didn't need to tell HMRC because none of the parts of the structure were in themselves declarable. 

But that just made it obvious that there was a reason not to declare it - HMRC wouldn't buy it because it was nothing more than a structure designed to avoid tax. 

[msi]

On 14/10/2023 at 16:38, regprentice said:

Most if the articles posted indicate that P118 told their clients not to declare the scheme to HMRC and they even provided a draft wording 

i'd imagine that the properties flag on HMRCs radar when sold and the CGT crystallises  which is probably starting to happen now. 

HMRC have 20 years, they're never in a hurry but they generally get there.  

They have 20 years to start...that could be simply getting flagged.  Not declaring your usage of a 'scheme' is an automatic flag

Once you're flagged..they have all the time in the world.

[Man of Kent]

On 06/10/2023 at 21:10, Dyson Fury said:

Getting serious now:

https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2023/10/06/slappedagain/

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/assets/Brett_Wilson_letter.pdf

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/assets/response_to_brett_wilson.pdf

🍿

[Man of Kent]

Jesus Christ.

https://www.property118.com/open-letter-to-dan-neidle-i-am-not-the-monster-you-think-i-am/

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Jesus Christ.

https://www.property118.com/open-letter-to-dan-neidle-i-am-not-the-monster-you-think-i-am/

Well that's certainly a lot of words.

[regprentice]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Jesus Christ.

https://www.property118.com/open-letter-to-dan-neidle-i-am-not-the-monster-you-think-i-am/

Does he write the comments on the site himself? 

They're littered with spelling errors (can you be a professional businessman and spell Graph as "graf"?), they all have the same tone, most talk about failed marriages, drinking, have some degree of "hero worship" of Mark and have similar "matey" comments about having a "man to man" chat or drink to clear the air and how Dan and Mark could beat HMRC if Dan saw sense and "switched sides" to right the wrongs of s24.

for example, but by no means unique, 

Well written Mark, really felt the emotion. I'm on my third marriage but now basically retired. Being a workaholic certainly has its costs, in my 70's now but still miss the buzz. It's highly unlikely he will talk to you because of fear in being proved wrong and showing the world what an a*****e he really is. I still believe that he is very envious of what you have achieved against all odds and wants to put you down. I hate wasting my time checking him out but the more i read the less I see. Of course my opinions are mine and may be totally wrong but lets see if he has the guts to have a genuine face to face man to man talk. My experience is that bullies never do. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by regprentice

[Man of Kent]

Quote

I’ve just read every word of your post Mark. It’s very clear that you’re as passionate about what you do as you are knowledgable with transparency. Mr Neidle is obviously intimidated by this. I suspect his professional interests are being compromised by your dominant influence in the landlord market. This year I completed the 3 year transition through to Incorporation with Property 118 and I’m very delighted with the whole process. Obviously I’m on board and a believer. I’ll continue to follow property 118 daily emails. Maybe you should challenge Mr Neidle to a celebrity cage fight and post it live on your website? 

It's just a cult. Like Dan Neidle - a man who saw off a literal Chancellor of the Exchequer - is intimidated by him is just insane. 

[Si1]

1 hour ago, regprentice said:

Does he write the comments on the site himself? 

They're littered with spelling errors (can you be a professional businessman and spell Graph as "graf"?), they all have the same tone, most talk about failed marriages, drinking, have some degree of "hero worship" of Mark and have similar "matey" comments about having a "man to man" chat or drink to clear the air and how Dan and Mark could beat HMRC if Dan saw sense and "switched sides" to right the wrongs of s24.

for example, but by no means unique, 

Well written Mark, really felt the emotion. I'm on my third marriage but now basically retired. Being a workaholic certainly has its costs, in my 70's now but still miss the buzz. It's highly unlikely he will talk to you because of fear in being proved wrong and showing the world what an a*****e he really is. I still believe that he is very envious of what you have achieved against all odds and wants to put you down. I hate wasting my time checking him out but the more i read the less I see. Of course my opinions are mine and may be totally wrong but lets see if he has the guts to have a genuine face to face man to man talk. My experience is that bullies never do. 

Being a highly leveraged landlord sailing straight into the jaws of the S24 monster with a dodgy tax-evasion strategy is probably self-selecting for stupidity. They may not be intrinsically horrible people, but they've gone swimming in the shark infested waters of non regulated leveraged investments, and accidentally unknowingly had a free ride for SOOOOO long. Right for the wrong reasons and doubled down big time. In a free world then they are ripe for destruction, and they're just starting to cotton on to this.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Si1

[spyguy]

4 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Jesus Christ.

https://www.property118.com/open-letter-to-dan-neidle-i-am-not-the-monster-you-think-i-am/

I like this bit.

However, as a result of a loss of credibility, not of my making, I had to lay off all 300 staff and put my company into hibernation, a state the company remains in to this day.  

Balls. He was running one if those mortgage printing IFAs, where they help people 'fill' in a mortgage app.

These were rife 2003-2008 - You didn't  get 80% of the UK banking sector in insolvency by being honest ffs.

Not content with his own mortgage printing op, he created a franchise.

Was all this lunacy really 14y ago?

https://www.mortgagestrategy.co.uk/news/the-money-centre-to-cease-trading-tomorrow/

 

[spyguy]

I have two questions for you: –

What tax qualifications do you have personally? I checked the websites of STEP, CIOT etc. and can’t find any record of you there. I do acknowledge that you have been a solicitor since 2000, I found that on the SRA website when compiling my report of your conduct to the SRA.

What is your relationship with Blick Rothenberg accountants?

If only there was a site on the Internet where you could look up stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Neidle

Neidle worked as a tax lawyer at international law firm Clifford Chance for 23 years, becoming its UK head of tax in 2020.^[3] Described by taxation law specialist Jolyon Maugham^[4] and tax publication ITR^[5] as possibly the UK's leading tax lawyer, his practice covered tax, cryptocurrency,^[6] public law and Brexit.^[7] He has been critical of schemes used by prominent individuals and companies to avoid tax,^{[8][9][10][11]} in favour of increased HMRC prosecution of aggressive tax avoidance and evasion,^[12] and in favour of windfall taxes on oil and gas producers^[13] (but did not support the investment allowances proposed in the UK Government's 2022 oil and gas windfall tax, saying they were just "giving money away"^[14]).

 

 

With $2,550,900,000 gross revenue in 2022, the firm placed 13th on the 2023 Global 200 ranking. Clifford Chance has 2529 attorneys and the firm placed 2nd on the 2021 UK 100 ranking.

 

 

[Si1]

39 minutes ago, spyguy said:

I have two questions for you: –

What tax qualifications do you have personally? I checked the websites of STEP, CIOT etc. and can’t find any record of you there. I do acknowledge that you have been a solicitor since 2000, I found that on the SRA website when compiling my report of your conduct to the SRA.

What is your relationship with Blick Rothenberg accountants?

If only there was a site on the Internet where you could look up stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Neidle

Neidle worked as a tax lawyer at international law firm Clifford Chance for 23 years, becoming its UK head of tax in 2020.^[3] Described by taxation law specialist Jolyon Maugham^[4] and tax publication ITR^[5] as possibly the UK's leading tax lawyer, his practice covered tax, cryptocurrency,^[6] public law and Brexit.^[7] He has been critical of schemes used by prominent individuals and companies to avoid tax,^{[8][9][10][11]} in favour of increased HMRC prosecution of aggressive tax avoidance and evasion,^[12] and in favour of windfall taxes on oil and gas producers^[13] (but did not support the investment allowances proposed in the UK Government's 2022 oil and gas windfall tax, saying they were just "giving money away"^[14]).

 

 

With $2,550,900,000 gross revenue in 2022, the firm placed 13th on the 2023 Global 200 ranking. Clifford Chance has 2529 attorneys and the firm placed 2nd on the 2021 UK 100 ranking.

 

 

 

[2buyornot2buy]

12 hours ago, Si1 said:

Well that's certainly a lot of words.

It's hilarious. He knows he's been rumbled, the house of cards is starting to tumble and he's having a real-time public breakdown. 

Trying to SLAPP a former CC partner and thinking it would be effective is just the icing on the cake. 

[spyguy]

8 hours ago, Si1 said:

 

I know its Norwich n all that but theres more than an air of Alan Partridge.

You have a long (20y is a *LONG* time in a magic circle lawyer) serving partner at Cliff Chance who reached the top of a very strange slippery pole.

The connection is easy to find - just google his name and clifff chance.

Yet he moron is looking him up on the SRA register FFS.

' I dont believe youre a lawyer! Ive rung round all the solicitors in Norwich *AND* Stowmarket and theyve not heard of you ...'

 

 

[spyguy]

46 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

It's hilarious. He knows he's been rumbled, the house of cards is starting to tumble and he's having a real-time public breakdown. 

Trying to SLAPP a former CC partner and thinking it would be effective is just the icing on the cake. 

He just doesnt seem to keep himself out of trouble re: fkwitted properdee scams.

First he rides the wave of IO BTL lunacy with his Application-From-A-Filla franchise, which LLoyds remove all business from, blowing it up.

Then he starts a 'If you sand on one leg, on Sunday, you kill a Welshman. Only with bow n arrow mind' sort of legal man-in-the-pub-b-the-fruit-machine fkwittery.

First one was the, ultimately the banks fault.

This one is soley him. And he prob off to jail, as ell getting the shirt stripped off his back.

I await his court appearance - 'I am Mark?;- son of Alexander;-. By which legal authority  do you sentence me ...'

 

 

[2buyornot2buy]

3 hours ago, spyguy said:

He just doesnt seem to keep himself out of trouble re: fkwitted properdee scams.

First he rides the wave of IO BTL lunacy with his Application-From-A-Filla franchise, which LLoyds remove all business from, blowing it up.

Then he starts a 'If you sand on one leg, on Sunday, you kill a Welshman. Only with bow n arrow mind' sort of legal man-in-the-pub-b-the-fruit-machine fkwittery.

First one was the, ultimately the banks fault.

This one is soley him. And he prob off to jail, as ell getting the shirt stripped off his back.

I await his court appearance - 'I am Mark?;- son of Alexander;-. By which legal authority  do you sentence me ...'

 

 

😆 you've him down to a t. 

 

I think a blind man on a galloping horse can see where this is going.

HMRC investigation, crowd funding, litigation, hiding behind limited liability and bankruptcy. What's to be decided is who gets left holding the bag. 

[msi]

1 minute ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

😆 you've him down to a t. 

 

I think a blind man on a galloping horse can see where this is going.

HMRC investigation, crowd funding, litigation, hiding behind limited liability and bankruptcy. What's to be decided is who gets left holding the bag. 

don't spoil the ending 

[2buyornot2buy]

16 minutes ago, msi said:

don't spoil the ending 

You're right. My bad. 

Did you watch the movie Titanic? Similar levels of surprise at the ending. 

I've said too much. I'm sorry 😞. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by 2buyornot2buy

[iamnumerate]

1 minute ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

You're right. My bad. 

Did you watch the movie Titanic? Similar levels of surprise at the ending. 

I've said to much. I'm sorry 😞. 

But this is a comedy

[2buyornot2buy]

10 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

But this is a comedy

In MA'S case I was thinking Greek tragedy. Hubris begets nemesis and all that. 

[Si1]

5 hours ago, spyguy said:

He just doesnt seem to keep himself out of trouble re: fkwitted properdee scams.

First he rides the wave of IO BTL lunacy with his Application-From-A-Filla franchise, which LLoyds remove all business from, blowing it up.

Then he starts a 'If you sand on one leg, on Sunday, you kill a Welshman. Only with bow n arrow mind' sort of legal man-in-the-pub-b-the-fruit-machine fkwittery.

First one was the, ultimately the banks fault.

This one is soley him. And he prob off to jail, as ell getting the shirt stripped off his back.

I await his court appearance - 'I am Mark?;- son of Alexander;-. By which legal authority  do you sentence me ...'

 

 

This has happened right across the real estate bubble of the last few decades. People got away with it by chance. They were right (their f#ckwit like random gambles paying off handsomely out of lucky timing) but not for the reasons they thought they were. So they doubled down until their luck runs out.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Si1

[Si1]

 

 

 

[Huggy]

10 minutes ago, Si1 said:

This has happened right across the real estate bubble of the last few decades. People got away with it by chance. They were right (their f#ckwit like random gambles paying off handsomely out of lucky timing) but not for the reasons they thought they were. So they doubled down until their luck runs out.

I'd say their luck was accidentally aligning with the Fed's 7 year debt fuelled asset bubble, then accidentally aligning with the Fed's 14 year debt and ZIRP fuelled asset bubble.

Their bad luck was trying to align their properties to the next assumed asset bubble again, which doesn't look to be property any more...

[spyguy]

6 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I'd say their luck was accidentally aligning with the Fed's 7 year debt fuelled asset bubble, then accidentally aligning with the Fed's 14 year debt and ZIRP fuelled asset bubble.

Their bad luck was trying to align their properties to the next assumed asset bubble again, which doesn't look to be property any more...

Mainly mnay stars alinged.

Moron Greenspan was put in the hot seat in ~84?

John Smith had one too mnay fags n fried Mars bar dinners, opening Labour leadership

9/11, where Greenspan 'steered' the US economy.

Brown n Balls dismnated the BoE n regulator, leaving noone in charge.

Building socs deregualted in mid/;ate 90s, allowign the banking genius of the lieks of Adam Applegarth, and the whole collection of fkwits at RBS/BOS/Halifax.

This was ain a relaviely short period. ~97ish to 2008.

 

[Si1]

33 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I'd say their luck was accidentally aligning with the Fed's 7 year debt fuelled asset bubble, then accidentally aligning with the Fed's 14 year debt and ZIRP fuelled asset bubble.

Their bad luck was trying to align their properties to the next assumed asset bubble again, which doesn't look to be property any more...

Yeah that's my take too