Are Britain's planned 15-minute cities effectively 15-minute control grids?

[Si1]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

The figure of £25 was on TV several years back.

Think about it, you have the wages plus overheads of employing the delivery driver, the capital cost of the van, fuel, its running costs and insurance.

You also have to pay people to run around collecting the items and packing them.

Some customers will live in out of the way areas also.  The £25 was an average cost.

And how much are the recurring fixed costs of physical shop space per customer as an alternative?

[Arpeggio]

4 minutes ago, Si1 said:

And how much are the recurring fixed costs of physical shop space per customer as an alternative?

If you count the costs to the customer getting there and back also, likely still less.

If the customer was able to travel and transport their goods at low cost, within short distance, this would be positive. We have heard about the surveillance checkpoints and permit allowance / fines.

Please tell us how this is being implemented, including for the growing number of disabled people.

[kzb]

51 minutes ago, Si1 said:

And how much are the recurring fixed costs of physical shop space per customer as an alternative?

I suppose if you didn't need the fancy premises and had a warehouse instead it might work out cheaper overall to deliver groceries.

What a future, stay in your cell working at home, never need to go out for anything.

[Si1]

26 minutes ago, kzb said:

I suppose if you didn't need the fancy premises and had a warehouse instead it might work out cheaper overall to deliver groceries.

And that's what they do now. Supermarkets have dedicated delivery order warehouses that do this now.

26 minutes ago, kzb said:

What a future, stay in your cell working at home, never need to go out for anything.

True. But you'd get a mix of deliveries, maybe once a week (boring regular stuff you know you'll need - isn't it equally dull going forces to traipse round a supermarket just to get your regular cheese bread and ham??) and the less regular more interesting stuff you fancy cooking with tonight, picking up physically thru the week just for fun/variety?

[Arpeggio]

7 hours ago, kzb said:

I suppose if you didn't need the fancy premises and had a warehouse instead it might work out cheaper overall to deliver groceries.

This is often the case for medications. NHS van comes round to drop off bags of drugs. That can use economy of scale though as it's not in competition, often many people in the same area are customers and it's government funded.

Might this be the model sought after by proponents of modernization on here? The cheese, bread and ham van, within an environment that could only survive with government regulation and support, in which businesses have failed.

That businesses are failing and would more so due to various restrictions and future unpredictability, would be put down to how it just doesn't work, seen separately from the excused ideals of goals for society, while repeating "Capitalism doesn't work".

The sweet spot is when you say to an old woman "the real problem is fiat money" and she starts talking about a previous car she owned, then later you are waiting for ages in the queue at a supermarket another old person is ironically trying to figure out how to get their cashless phone app to work for loyalty points, when it used to be fumbling for change. The difference being that the staff are helping and can't figure it out either, but it's all teething problems for the transition to everyone being exceedingly happy in a digital society.

 

7 hours ago, kzb said:

What a future, stay in your cell working at home, never need to go out for anything.

Maybe you are being over dramatic? You will be able to go out if you want, within your permit allowance, & the government will be watching you.

 

7 hours ago, Si1 said:

And that's what they do now. Supermarkets have dedicated delivery order warehouses that do this now.

True. But you'd get a mix of deliveries, maybe once a week (boring regular stuff you know you'll need - isn't it equally dull going forces to traipse round a supermarket just to get your regular cheese bread and ham??) and the less regular more interesting stuff you fancy cooking with tonight, picking up physically thru the week just for fun/variety?

Some people wont be able to handle the transition from takeaway deliveroo student life to the big bad world of the cheese, bread and ham van.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[Si1]

2 hours ago, Arpeggio said:

This is often the case for medications. NHS van comes round to drop off bags of drugs. That can use economy of scale though as it's not in competition, often many people in the same area are customers and it's government funded.

Might this be the model sought after by proponents of modernization on here? The cheese, bread and ham van, within an environment that could only survive with government regulation and support, in which businesses have failed.

That businesses are failing and would more so due to various restrictions and future unpredictability, would be put down to how it just doesn't work, seen separately from the excused ideals of goals for society, while repeating "Capitalism doesn't work".

The sweet spot is when you say to an old woman "the real problem is fiat money" and she starts talking about a previous car she owned, then later you are waiting for ages in the queue at a supermarket another old person is ironically trying to figure out how to get their cashless phone app to work for loyalty points, when it used to be fumbling for change. The difference being that the staff are helping and can't figure it out either, but it's all teething problems for the transition to everyone being exceedingly happy in a digital society.

 

Maybe you are being over dramatic? You will be able to go out if you want, within your permit allowance, & the government will be watching you.

 

Some people wont be able to handle the transition from takeaway deliveroo student life to the big bad world of the cheese, bread and ham van.

This is insane. If you live in a 15 minute suburb/community whatever, you get to go out MORE because you're not dependent on cars and time planning. My kids (8, 10) literally safely independently go to their friends house just down the pedestrianised street to play totally spontaneously after school. Easy peasy. My wife goes out to the library before it shuts to get another book to read, takes 20 minute round trip while I'm cooking tea. No stress. It's a nice walk. I'm missing an ingredient. 10 minute round trip walk to get it. By planning the big things sensibly the little things fall into place.

[Arpeggio]

5 minutes ago, Si1 said:

This is insane. If you live in a 15 minute suburb/community whatever, you get to go out MORE because you're not dependent on cars and time planning. My kids (8, 10) literally safely independently go to their friends house just down the pedestrianised street to play totally spontaneously after school. Easy peasy. My wife goes out to the library before it shuts to get another book to read, takes 20 minute round trip while I'm cooking tea. No stress. It's a nice walk. I'm missing an ingredient. 10 minute round trip walk to get it. By planning the big things sensibly the little things fall into place.

So you already live on a pedestrianized street, or you want to live on a pedestrianized street? and what has this got to do with surveillance checkpoints and permit allowances à la 15 minute city?

[Si1]

7 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

 surveillance checkpoints and permit allowances à la 15 minute city?

Link?

[Arpeggio]

23 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Link?

Not you as well ⬇️ ? or are you new to this thread?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Arpeggio

[kzb]

1 hour ago, Si1 said:

This is insane. If you live in a 15 minute suburb/community whatever, you get to go out MORE because you're not dependent on cars and time planning. My kids (8, 10) literally safely independently go to their friends house just down the pedestrianised street to play totally spontaneously after school. Easy peasy. My wife goes out to the library before it shuts to get another book to read, takes 20 minute round trip while I'm cooking tea. No stress. It's a nice walk. I'm missing an ingredient. 10 minute round trip walk to get it. By planning the big things sensibly the little things fall into place.

Only as long as you stay in your allotted zone !

Also, you raise the topic of public libraries.  Again, the trend (like with everything) has been to close local branches.  Presumably because we can't afford them.

[Freki]

1 hour ago, kzb said:

Only as long as you stay in your allotted zone !

Link?

[Si1]

1 hour ago, Arpeggio said:

Not you as well ⬇️ ? or are you new to this thread?

Link?

[kzb]

3 minutes ago, Freki said:

Link?

Go back to the beginning of the thread.

The idea is you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times.  With the inevitable mission creep that will change into people being effectively imprisoned within a zone.  You will need social credit to get out.

[Arpeggio]

15 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Link?

If you look at the post you are replying to and click on "or are you new to this thread" it will take you there. I ask if you are new to this thread because it has already been given. If you still have issues seeing the link please reply and customer services will be happy to help you.

[Si1]

14 minutes ago, Arpeggio said:

If you look at the post you are replying to and click on "or are you new to this thread" it will take you there. I ask if you are new to this thread because it has already been given. If you still have issues seeing the link please reply and customer services will be happy to help you.

I found a link saying weird conspiracy nutters think they're going to ban cars, and that's it. Try harder.

[Si1]

41 minutes ago, kzb said:

Go back to the beginning of the thread.

The idea is you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times.  With the inevitable mission creep that will change into people being effectively imprisoned within a zone.  You will need social credit to get out.

Please copy and paste the detail where it says that. I looked.

[Arpeggio]

1 minute ago, Si1 said:

I found a link saying weird conspiracy nutters think they're going to ban cars, and that's it. Try harder.

Please show everyone what you are talking about.

The post in question for examination on this is here.

[kzb]

7 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Please copy and paste the detail where it says that. I looked.

Of course the Oxford scheme does not say that.  But that is where it will end up.

[Si1]

4 minutes ago, kzb said:

Of course the Oxford scheme does not say that.  But that is where it will end up.

Does it say anywhere "you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times."?

[kzb]

1 minute ago, Si1 said:

Does it say anywhere "you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times."?

I think the Canterbury proposal said that.  No time to look just now.

[Jean-Luc]

19 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Does it say anywhere "you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times."?

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/connecting-oxfordshire/traffic-filters

"Cars will be prohibited from driving through the traffic filters without a permit while the filters are in operation. All other vehicles including taxis, buses, coaches, all vans, mopeds, motorbikes and HGVs can still pass through these traffic filters at all times.

The filters are not physical barriers, automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras will monitor and enforce the restrictions. 

It will be physically possible to drive through the filters during restricted times without a permit, but you will receive a penalty charge notice (PCN) if you do so.

The traffic filters cover very short lengths of road (just a few metres). Any vehicle can use the road outside the filter at any time without a permit. 

Residents in Oxford and some areas just outside the city will be able to apply for a permit allowing them to drive through the traffic filters on up to 100 days each year."

So after you have used up your 100 permits it's game ov er for you unless you want a penalty charge notice. I would say that constitutes limiting the number of times you can enter a zone.

Edited July 17, 2023 by daveyj

[PeanutButter]

So don’t live in Oxford then.

Simple.

[Jean-Luc]

2 minutes ago, PeanutButter said:

So don’t live in Oxford then.

Simple.

You don't think if allowed there then these schemes won't end up expanding everywhere in the uk? 😂

Edited July 17, 2023 by daveyj

[Si1]

4 minutes ago, daveyj said:

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/roads-and-transport/connecting-oxfordshire/traffic-filters

"Cars will be prohibited from driving through the traffic filters without a permit while the filters are in operation. All other vehicles including taxis, buses, coaches, all vans, mopeds, motorbikes and HGVs can still pass through these traffic filters at all times.

The filters are not physical barriers, automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras will monitor and enforce the restrictions. 

It will be physically possible to drive through the filters during restricted times without a permit, but you will receive a penalty charge notice (PCN) if you do so.

The traffic filters cover very short lengths of road (just a few metres). Any vehicle can use the road outside the filter at any time without a permit. 

Residents in Oxford and some areas just outside the city will be able to apply for a permit allowing them to drive through the traffic filters on up to 100 days each year."

So after you have used up your 100 permits it's game ov er for you unless you want a penalty charge notice. I would say that constitutes limiting the number of times you can enter a zone.

Nowhere does that say "you will only be able to drive across the borders of your zone a limited number of times". Basically you've torpedoed it. Well done.

 

I recommend this then come back to me:

https://www.udemy.com/topic/reading-comprehension/

 

[Si1]

2 minutes ago, daveyj said:

You don't think if allowed there then these schemes won't end up expanding everywhere in the uk? 😂

By the space lizards?