BoE investigates 'terrifying' rise in borrowing to fund new car purchases

[Greater Fool]

On 03/11/2021 at 18:31, NorthamptonBear said:

Ford can't make 100,000 EVs. VW can't make 100,000 low maintenance EVs with over-the air updates for anything other than trivial fixes.

Car hire firms/any bulk buyers paying list price was unknown before Tesla. Tesla cannot satisfy demand.

Even the factories scaling to 7 million won't satisfy demand IMO. All that is needed are cells & Tesla can outbid anyone for raw materials & cells.

 

Also, many competitors are using large pouch nickel cells, a bad choice for several reasons:-

Large (high energy, hard to stop thermal propagation)

Pouch cells - not reliable in high vibration, extreme temperature applications

 

VW's Diess gets it, but is having ANOTHER no-confidence vote.

Stellantis person is clever, but has a mountain of legacy misinvestment to climb.

Most car companies are too slow, and Tesla is the only real chance of non-Chinese cars.

 

What are Toyota/Honda smoking? Hydrogen - still - really?

The history books are full of arrogant companies who thought they had a monopoly in the market, until they didn't. Detroit is testament to that.

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, winkie said:

At least you are honest about your enthusiasm .....there are and will be plenty of other EV to choose from, early days......many years left of conventional vehicles to go, we are nowhere near ready yet. 

You have got that the wrong way round.

My enthusiasm came from buying a Tesla and realising that it was years ahead of anything else on sale. A fair bit of research later I was happy that all the stories about them being unable to produce at volume and being crushed by the likes of VW or GM were nonsense and I invested. At the time it was a gamble because it was still possible Tesla could go bust before becoming profitable but the gamble paid off and I sold 75% for over 7 times what I paid and moved the proceeds into National Grid ( a safe dividend paying bet on the electric revolution). 

Since then the path forward for Tesla has become clearer it will not be caught up by any of the other Western car companies (most will be fighting for survival by 2025) the only real competition now is from the Chinese companies that will be coming to Europe and the US in the next 2-3yrs. 

I still think Tesla has an awful long way to go and last week I spent our ISA allowances for this year on another 53 Tesla shares at just over $1,000. I raised the cash I sold some GM shares that I bought two years ago I bought them thinking GM would be one of the companies that would survive the transition but since then whenever they had an opportunity to screw up they grabbed it with both hands and are now well on the way to bankruptcy. 

NB JP Morgan takes the opposite view predicting today that Tesla will lose 77% of its value in the next 12 months. I think they are wrong but time will tell. 

Conventional vehicles will disappear much more quickly than people think, once the Chinese start shipping £15k EVs in volume there won't be much of a market left for new or used ICEs.

On 03/11/2021 at 19:41, skinnylattej said:

 

Shortage of power in China leading to a shortage of magnesium.

Tesla use a lot of aluminium alloy in their construction.

That's probably good for Tesla as they are making a near 30% margin on their cars and they can afford to pay more for materials. Not so good for the others that are currently making cars at between 6% margin (VW) and a loss (Ford and GM), it just raises the bar on them surviving.   

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, Tiger131 said:

The history books are full of arrogant companies who thought they had a monopoly in the market, until they didn't. Detroit is testament to that.

Tesla doesn't want a monopoly, it has even given a leg up to other companies by allowing free access to thousands of their patents. 

[2buyornot2buy]

3 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You have got that the wrong way round.

My enthusiasm came from buying a Tesla and realising that it was years ahead of anything else on sale. A fair bit of research later I was happy that all the stories about them being unable to produce at volume and being crushed by the likes of VW or GM were nonsense and I invested. At the time it was a gamble because it was still possible Tesla could go bust before becoming profitable but the gamble paid off and I sold 75% for over 7 times what I paid and moved the proceeds into National Grid ( a safe dividend paying bet on the electric revolution). 

Since then the path forward for Tesla has become clearer it will not be caught up by any of the other Western car companies (most will be fighting for survival by 2025) the only real competition now is from the Chinese companies that will be coming to Europe and the US in the next 2-3yrs. 

I still think Tesla has an awful long way to go and last week I spent our ISA allowances for this year on another 53 Tesla shares at just over $1,000. I raised the cash I sold some GM shares that I bought two years ago I bought them thinking GM would be one of the companies that would survive the transition but since then whenever they had an opportunity to screw up they grabbed it with both hands and are now well on the way to bankruptcy. 

NB JP Morgan takes the opposite view predicting today that Tesla will lose 77% of its value in the next 12 months. I think they are wrong but time will tell. 

Conventional vehicles will disappear much more quickly than people think, once the Chinese start shipping £15k EVs in volume there won't be much of a market left for new or used ICEs.

That's probably good for Tesla as they are making a near 30% margin on their cars and they can afford to pay more for materials. Not so good for the others that are currently making cars at between 6% margin (VW) and a loss (Ford and GM), it just raises the bar on them surviving.   

Not sure which hole you pulled the margin figures out of but Tesla operating margin is closer to 15%. VW operating margin is indeed 6-7.5%. I'm assuming you're talking about operating margin? You wouldn't be trying to compare tesla gross to VW operating to try and make a point would you? 

Vw gross is closer to 16% Q3 2021 BTW and Tesla 26.6%. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by 2buyornot2buy

[Confusion of VIs]

42 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Not sure which hole you pulled the margin figures out of but Tesla operating margin is closer to 15%. VW operating margin is indeed 6-7.5%. I'm assuming your talking about operating margin? You wouldn't be trying to compare tesla gross to VW operating to try and make a point would you? %

Vw gross is closer to 16% Q3 2021 BTW and Tesla 26.6%. 

Both are gross for EV production, VW figure was quoted by their CEO (I assumed he was correct) when he recently set  a target of raising it to 15%. Tesla's is rising rapidly as they continue to cut costs while raising prices, will be 30-32% for Q4.  

[Peter Hun]

No doubt you think Tesla will be able to sell their $25k car for a 50% premium to maintain that premium. Cos people will buy Tesla no matter what.

China sales are disappointing, last month Tesla had 4% market share

.BYD sold 5 times Tesla, 80k in October.

In Europe VW has twice Tesla market share. Usual end of quarter shipment may make a slight change to that.

I topped up my tesla short shares. 

[2buyornot2buy]

9 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Both are gross for EV production, VW figure was quoted by their CEO (I assumed he was correct) when he recently set  a target of raising it to 15%. Tesla's is rising rapidly as they continue to cut costs while raising prices, will be 30-32% for Q4.  

Ah you made it up. That makes sense. Tesla's gross isn't 30% and Diess has never mentioned the gross EV margin. He has said the operating will be the same for EV as ICE. 

[Confusion of VIs]

5 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

No doubt you think Tesla will be able to sell their $25k car for a 50% premium to maintain that premium. Cos people will buy Tesla no matter what.

The achievable margin will depend on the Chinese competition, if Tesla's margins are being squeezed there isn't much hope for the Western manufacturers.  

5 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

China sales are disappointing, last month Tesla had 4% market share

.BYD sold 5 times Tesla, 80k in October.

Tesla sells every car it can make, didn't I explain before that the Chinese output is being shared across the world and the sales figures in each market just reflect the quotas allocated to each market. 

5 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

In Europe VW has twice Tesla market share. Usual end of quarter shipment may make a slight change to that.

As above, Europe is buying every Tesla they can get and at premium prices. I wonder what will happen when Berlin and Texas start production. 

5 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

I topped up my tesla short shares. 

To try and get back the money you lost on your October short? 

[Confusion of VIs]

5 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Ah you made it up. That makes sense. Tesla's gross isn't 30% and Diess has never mentioned the gross EV margin. He has said the operating will be the same for EV as ICE. 

Teslas Q3 Financial Report  30.5% GAAP Automotive gross margin (28.8% ex-credits) in Q3

He did, perhaps he forgot to tell you. His target is to maintain it above 6% during the transition to EV's, as their current margin is 15.6% that implies their EV sales are currently losing money.  I am pretty sure they lost money on my wife's id3 after the over £7k discount. 

Diess seems to be the only Legacy CEO that understands the difficulty of transitioning to EV manufacturing. He gets that EVs are computers on wheels and that matching Tesla's productivity will require all new assembly lines/factories.  The so far unsaid implication of this is that VW will need to lose at least two thirds of its workforce even if it manages to maintain its current market share. Quite how he can do this in Germany is hard to see.   

 

 

 

[2buyornot2buy]

24 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Teslas Q3 Financial Report  30.5% GAAP Automotive gross margin (28.8% ex-credits) in Q3

He did, perhaps he forgot to tell you. His target is to maintain it above 6% during the transition to EV's, as their current margin is 15.6% that implies their EV sales are currently losing money.  I am pretty sure they lost money on my wife's id3 after the over £7k discount. 

Diess seems to be the only Legacy CEO that understands the difficulty of transitioning to EV manufacturing. He gets that EVs are computers on wheels and that matching Tesla's productivity will require all new assembly lines/factories.  The so far unsaid implication of this is that VW will need to lose at least two thirds of its workforce even if it manages to maintain its current market share. Quite how he can do this in Germany is hard to see.   

 

 

 

6.94% is the operating margin for the whole group.

Not the Gross Profit Margin for the EV segment. 15.64% is the Q3 gross margin for the whole group.

It isn't separated out for EVs.

What Diess has said is that he expects the EV operating margin to be the same as ICE and is targeting the group OM.

You don't have a clue what they made or did not on you wife's ID3. You don't know what they'd make on an ID3 if you ordered one now for delivery in August 2022.

You know what Tesla's margin is on an average sales price of $90,000, now tell me what it will be for an average of $40,000 when they start selling the $25,000 car they announced 2 years ago. 

[Confusion of VIs]

15 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

6.94% is the operating margin for the whole group.

Not the Gross Profit Margin for the EV segment. 15.64% is the Q3 gross margin for the whole group.

It isn't separated out for EVs.

What Diess has said is that he expects the EV operating margin to be the same as ICE and is targeting the group OM.

Eventually maybe. He also said during the transition the margin will drop but he hopes to keep it above 6%. In other interviews he has said the cost of moving to EV's will stretch VW's finances.  An independent person would probably say they are already overstretched. 

15 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

You don't have a clue what they made or did not on you wife's ID3. You don't know what they'd make on an ID3 if you ordered one now for delivery in August 2022.

I think we can be pretty sure that after a 20% discount there was no profit left, especially given the amount of troubles and delays in getting the id3 produced. In fact they still haven't managed to get the online updates working.      

15 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

You know what Tesla's margin is on an average sales price of $90,000, now tell me what it will be for an average of $40,000 when they start selling the $25,000 car they announced 2 years ago. 

Who knows but what I  do know is that so far the margins on each new model have been higher than before and the production costs are still coming down with a huge drop expected for the new Berlin and Texas plants.  

You seem to be stuck in the same rut as Peter unable to comprehend that the world has changed and that all those ICE production assets will soon become liabilities.   Tesla's real competition will be from the Chinese manufacturers arriving in Europe and the US in the next 2 or 3 years.

[markyh]

8 hours ago, Peter Hun said:

No doubt you think Tesla will be able to sell their $25k car for a 50% premium to maintain that premium. Cos people will buy Tesla no matter what.

China sales are disappointing, last month Tesla had 4% market share

.BYD sold 5 times Tesla, 80k in October.

In Europe VW has twice Tesla market share. Usual end of quarter shipment may make a slight change to that.

I topped up my tesla short shares. 

Lol. Tesla still selling all they can make and dominating on worldwide sales. Vw had one chance to overtake in 2021 and blew it. Our Model 3 LR arrives next week and our Model Y LR in 2022, VW didnt even get a test drive. 

I want quality, Tech, VFM, and speed, all in one car. 

Tesla will now Cush VW in Europe and Germany in 2022, Gigafactory Berlin is coming online, then China can start tooling up to make the $$25k C class Hatchback. 

 

[Peter Hun]

17 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The achievable margin will depend on the Chinese competition, if Tesla's margins are being squeezed there isn't much hope for the Western manufacturers.  

Tesla sells every car it can make, didn't I explain before that the Chinese output is being shared across the world and the sales figures in each market just reflect the quotas allocated to each market. 

As above, Europe is buying every Tesla they can get and at premium prices. I wonder what will happen when Berlin and Texas start production. 

To try and get back the money you lost on your October short? 

All car manufacturers sell every car they make, Tesla problem is that othet manufacturersare now starting to maker more cars and growing faster. In China BYD grew at 236%, Tesla at 13%.

Your magically thinking should be applied to Teslas competition. BYD from nothing to 8x Tesla in China, VW to x2  in two years. Tesla have a problem, they sell high price high margin product and are being under cut.

Yes i hold short shares in Tesla had them a while, lost 50% so averaged down. I don't lose until i crystallise my loses.

[2buyornot2buy]

18 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Eventually maybe. He also said during the transition the margin will drop but he hopes to keep it above 6%. In other interviews he has said the cost of moving to EV's will stretch VW's finances.  An independent person would probably say they are already overstretched. 

I think we can be pretty sure that after a 20% discount there was no profit left, especially given the amount of troubles and delays in getting the id3 produced. In fact they still haven't managed to get the online updates working.      

Who knows but what I  do know is that so far the margins on each new model have been higher than before and the production costs are still coming down with a huge drop expected for the new Berlin and Texas plants.  

You seem to be stuck in the same rut as Peter unable to comprehend that the world has changed and that all those ICE production assets will soon become liabilities.   Tesla's real competition will be from the Chinese manufacturers arriving in Europe and the US in the next 2 or 3 years.

Right, so we've established that you compared Tesla gross margin to VW Group operating margin. Now you think VW with about 30 billion free cashflow with 15 billion R&D spend is "overstretched"??

Who pays list price for a car apart from Tesla buyers? I certainly haven't, ever. The list price is just a number. Some will pay closer to it. Some will negotiate a discount. Doesn't matter if you're buying a 911 or a Corsa. You have absolutely zero idea what the margin was on your ID3, just like I have zero idea on the margin of the other cars I negotiated a "discount" on. 

You seem to be stuck with the idea that Tesla is still a disruptor. It isn't, others have moved on too.  

 

 

 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

 

Great Vid from Sandy Monroe on poss. where the auto industry is going

Your Move OEMs...Who Will Survive?

https://youtu.be/g63SJwFdGTQ

[markyh]

On 26/11/2021 at 06:39, Peter Hun said:

All car manufacturers sell every car they make,

Only one sells all they make without having to "Give them" away with big discounts so low or zero profits. Tesla. 

So lets rephrase. 

Tesla sell all the cars they make at full Retail price and full profit margins, because they have demand far greater than supply, which they are addressing by 2023. 

Short shares at a 50% loss eh, so roughly when Tesla shares are at $2200 your short shares are worth "£0" zero?  And you bought more? 

You are Gordon Johnson and i claim my £5. 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

On 26/11/2021 at 06:39, Peter Hun said:

All car manufacturers sell every car they make,

Not all the cars they could make and not at a list price set to manage rather than create demand. 

 

On 26/11/2021 at 06:39, Peter Hun said:

Tesla problem is that othet manufacturersare now starting to maker more cars and growing faster.

You do know that Tesla is about to commission what will soon be by far the worlds two most productive car plants. 

On 26/11/2021 at 06:39, Peter Hun said:

In China BYD grew at 236%, Tesla at 13%.

Your magically thinking should be applied to Teslas competition. BYD from nothing to 8x Tesla in China, VW to x2  in two years. Tesla have a problem, they sell high price high margin product and are being under cut.

BYD figures are inflated by adding in hybrids and producing cars with very limited range, one of their top sellers has a range of just 43m. Tesla's figures for China simply reflect the quota allocated to China.   

Volkwagen's ID4 is turning out to be bit of a dud, coming in the bottom of group tests and still with the slow buggy software that is driving my wife nuts in her ID3 (on line updates still not working, so far 3 trips to the dealer for updates that should have been done online).    

On 26/11/2021 at 06:39, Peter Hun said:

Yes i hold short shares in Tesla had them a while, lost 50% so averaged down. I don't lose until i crystallise my loses.

The next few days while Musk is still selling a couple of $1bn each day might be an opportunity to close your position, Q4 is going to be another blowout and if the opening of Texas and Berlin goes smoothly the price will soon be heading past $2,000  

[Confusion of VIs]

On 26/11/2021 at 09:51, 2buyornot2buy said:

Right, so we've established that you compared Tesla gross margin to VW Group operating margin. Now you think VW with about 30 billion free cashflow with 15 billion R&D spend is "overstretched"??s debt, 

No I compared it with the number Diess hopes to avoid falling below a nonsensical comment if he was talking about operating margin. 

Have a look at VW's debt.  

On 26/11/2021 at 09:51, 2buyornot2buy said:

Who pays list price for a car apart from Tesla buyers? I certainly haven't, ever. The list price is just a number. Some will pay closer to it. Some will negotiate a discount.

The last three cars I bought were all at list price, no negotiation possible because they were cars people wanted.

On 26/11/2021 at 09:51, 2buyornot2buy said:

Doesn't matter if you're buying a 911 or a Corsa. You have absolutely zero idea what the margin was on your ID3, just like I have zero idea on the margin of the other cars I negotiated a "discount" on. 

The ID3 cost VW a fortune to develop and they are still trying to get it right. I doubt they were making money at list and am very confident they weren't at 20% off list. 

On 26/11/2021 at 09:51, 2buyornot2buy said:

You seem to be stuck with the idea that Tesla is still a disruptor. It isn't, others have moved on too.  

So has Tesla. Most of the others haven't even caught up with Tesla's 2012 tech, never mind the 2022 tech that will be in the Berlin and Texas models. The disruption is only just starting.  

Edited November 27, 2021 by Confusion of VIs

[2buyornot2buy]

On 27/11/2021 at 20:50, Confusion of VIs said:

 

You do know that Tesla is about to commission what will soon be by far the worlds two most productive car plants. 

What does this even mean? Productive based on what? Hyundai produce 1.5 million cars (15 models) at Ulsan with about 36k worker. Is it "far" more productive than that? 

[2buyornot2buy]

On 27/11/2021 at 22:48, Confusion of VIs said:

No I compared it with the number Diess hopes to avoid falling below a nonsensical comment if he was talking about operating margin. 

Have a look at VW's debt.  

The last three cars I bought were all at list price, no negotiation possible because they were cars people wanted.

The ID3 cost VW a fortune to develop and they are still trying to get it right. I doubt they were making money at list and am very confident they weren't at 20% off list. 

So has Tesla. Most of the others haven't even caught up with Tesla's 2012 tech, never mind the 2022 tech that will be in the Berlin and Texas models. The disruption is only just starting.  

He was talking about operating margin. Hes repeatedly said operating margin. You said. Apples and oranges. 

On 24/11/2021 at 20:04, 2buyornot2buy said:

That's probably good for Tesla as they are making a near 30% margin on their cars and they can afford to pay more for materials. Not so good for the others that are currently making cars at between 6% margin (VW)

VW debt is mostly from the VW financial service arm. Look at their assets. All those "discounts" off list price people are happy to think they are getting, usually dissappear when they finance the car. VW give a discount with one hand and charge 4-5% per annum for the privilege. They can give someone 20% off and recover it because they provide the finance through VW financial services. 

Maybe they don't make as much money from people like us, who take finance and cancel but average Joe doesn't pay cash for a car. They pay VW a few grand interest a year and had the car back or repeat. They are cash cows. 

VW spend more each and every year on R&D than Tesla's spend since its creation. They spend more very month than  Tesla spend annually. They can throw the kitchen sink at it. Tesla can throw a few tea spoons in comparison. 

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

What does this even mean? Productive based on what? Hyundai produce 1.5 million cars (15 models) at Ulsan with about 36k worker. Is it "far" more productive than that? 

Yes, far more productive. Tesla doesn't break down its employee numbers but let's looks at Shanghai.

The total number of Tesla employees in China is around 15,000. Not all of these will be in Shanghai or involved in production but lets assume they are.

As of today the Shanghai plant has ramped up production to 3,600 cars per day ( 2,000 model 3 and 1,600 model Y). On an annual basis this is 1.3m cars (and Tesla has just announced it will be taking on another 4,000 workers by March to  further boost this number).

So if we look at a cars per worker basis Shanghai is twice as productive as Ulsan, factor in the difference in selling price of the average Tesla v Hyundai and you are probably at around 4 times.  Now factor in that despite continuous improvement Shanghai is old tech compared to Berlin and Texas and who knows how much more productive they will be.

What is clear is that Tesla has been sandbagging Shanghai was meant to produce 250,000 cars a year and then be expanded to produce 450,000 a year. 

The Q4 figures are going to be a blowout, on production and profit, best not to be shorting Tesla when they are released.          

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

VW debt is mostly from the VW financial service arm. Look at their assets. All those "discounts" off list price people are happy to think they are getting, usually dissappear when they finance the car. VW give a discount with one hand and charge 4-5% per annum for the privilege. They can give someone 20% off and recover it because they provide the finance through VW financial services. 

That's part of the story but interest baring debt is still $88bn. In addition 73% of VWs assets are listed as fixed assets, most of which will have to be written off over the next 10yrs.  

2 hours ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

Maybe they don't make as much money from people like us, who take finance and cancel but average Joe doesn't pay cash for a car. They pay VW a few grand interest a year and had the car back or repeat. They are cash cows. 

VW spend more each and every year on R&D than Tesla's spend since its creation. They spend more very month than  Tesla spend annually. They can throw the kitchen sink at it. Tesla can throw a few tea spoons in comparison. 

Tesla can throw as much cash as is required at R&D. They are sitting on a huge cash pile are becoming increasingly profitable quarter by quarter and, unlike the legacy manufacturers, will not have to go through an eye wateringly expensive downsizing over the coming years. 

The R&D underpinning Tesla's next generation cars is done and going into production next year. In contrast, VW's MEB platform is simply not good enough and their bet on solid state is not going to pay off in the short/medium term.  If I had shares in VW, I would sell them before Berlin opens.

I bought into GM a couple of years ago but sold them for Tesla, after deciding Biden's mad speech was their jump the shark moment and it will be all down hill from here.    

[markyh]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

That's part of the story but interest baring debt is still $88bn. In addition 73% of VWs assets are listed as fixed assets, most of which will have to be written off over the next 10yrs.  

Tesla can throw as much cash as is required at R&D. They are sitting on a huge cash pile are becoming increasingly profitable quarter by quarter and, unlike the legacy manufacturers, will not have to go through an eye wateringly expensive downsizing over the coming years. 

The R&D underpinning Tesla's next generation cars is done and going into production next year. In contrast, VW's MEB platform is simply not good enough and their bet on solid state is not going to pay off in the short/medium term.  If I had shares in VW, I would sell them before Berlin opens.

I bought into GM a couple of years ago but sold them for Tesla, after deciding Biden's mad speech was their jump the shark moment and it will be all down hill from here.    

I did Hold BMW shares along with Tesla back in 2016, when i got my BMW I3 Rex.  I sold them in 2019 at a small loss and bought more Tesla, a very smart move. 

[2buyornot2buy]

5 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Yes, far more productive. Tesla doesn't break down its employee numbers but let's looks at Shanghai.

The total number of Tesla employees in China is around 15,000. Not all of these will be in Shanghai or involved in production but lets assume they are.

As of today the Shanghai plant has ramped up production to 3,600 cars per day ( 2,000 model 3 and 1,600 model Y). On an annual basis this is 1.3m cars (and Tesla has just announced it will be taking on another 4,000 workers by March to  further boost this number).

So if we look at a cars per worker basis Shanghai is twice as productive as Ulsan, factor in the difference in selling price of the average Tesla v Hyundai and you are probably at around 4 times.  Now factor in that despite continuous improvement Shanghai is old tech compared to Berlin and Texas and who knows how much more productive they will be.

What is clear is that Tesla has been sandbagging Shanghai was meant to produce 250,000 cars a year and then be expanded to produce 450,000 a year. 

The Q4 figures are going to be a blowout, on production and profit, best not to be shorting Tesla when they are released.          

You've doubled the number of cars produced in shanghai. It was 1798 a day average in September and October 😆. You shouldn't listen to randomers on twitter. 

 

[Confusion of VIs]

1 hour ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

You've doubled the number of cars produced in shanghai. It was 1798 a day average in September and October 😆. You shouldn't listen to randomers on twitter. 

 

A period where the production lines were being upgraded which reduced output and also included a week of complete shutdown. 

Over the past five years the randomers have proved an awful lot more reliable than the "experts", almost all of whom still seem to be unable to grasp that the game has changed. 

You haven't by any chance shorted Tesla, have you?