onlyme2 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 32 minutes ago, IMHAL said: It would be nice to see what proportion of EU citizens are claiming benefits vs what proportion of Brits are claiming benefits vs what proportion of non EU citizens are claiming benefits - that would give an objective view. It appears that non EU nationals are currently the biggest group of benefits users (amongst non Brits that is) - so its hard to understand why the focus here appears to be purely on the EE contingent?? I'd hazard a guess that our home grown Wayne and Waynettas would probably win hands down on benefits largesse - so why not also focus on them? Maybe its just fashionable to focus on none facts. Not so simple to make comparison of just the overall numbers - will depend on age heavily for any disability/health based benefits for example. also there is the cumulative side effects of work based benefits which actively create more work based benefits under the current system where wage suppression reduces any incentive to break out of the 16hour tax credit cap. Where is there any merit promoting/allowing migrant labour if it is on the basis of handing out tax credits or any other form of support. You should be self funding from the work, period. If not there is no justification for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugador Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Would be interesting to see the numbers claiming vs. resident by each nationality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RentingForever Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 All of these figures are for 'DWP benefits'. Doesn't that exclude housing benefit, probably the biggest benefit most people will see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugador Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, flb said: The figures in the pdf I linked speak loudly. The 2nd paragraph in section 2, the FAQ's speaks loudly to me. "Consequently there is no complete picture of the number of migrants to the UK or foreign nationals in the UK who receive UK social security benefits and tax credits, or the cost of this." This is what happens when you pay people public money to give away public money. They don't cease to give a s**t, they never actually give a s**t. They just dole it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 What I would like to know is why before the vote were so many false and misleading facts, rhetoric and statistics rolled out by all sides.....How can anyone make a rational decision based on hearesay and political bias?.....All the information that was wrong, where was the truth.....What is the truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 26 minutes ago, doomed said: It would also be nice to see what % of benefits paid out in countries like Poland, Pakistan etc. get paid to Brits. £0for 0% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flb Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jugador said: The 2nd paragraph in section 2, the FAQ's speaks loudly to me. "Consequently there is no complete picture of the number of migrants to the UK or foreign nationals in the UK who receive UK social security benefits and tax credits, or the cost of this." This is what happens when you pay people public money to give away public money. They don't cease to give a s**t, they never actually give a s**t. They just dole it out. 23 minutes ago, doomed said: It would also be nice to see what % of benefits paid out in countries like Poland, Pakistan etc. get paid to Brits. Grasping at straws. The figures may not be completely accurate (wonder where the people at hmrc and dwp were born?). But when their own figures state that almost 93% are British, with the other 7% dominated by non-EU citizens (5% of the total), there's little left to argue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 This old article just sums up why we had to leave the EU. It's sickening, even the Romanians don't understand our generosity. A 100 strong clan in nottingham receiving benfits none of whom appear to work or have been asked to do so. You can be all politically correct about this, as some have on this thread. But sorry our benefits system would mean a 10 milliion addition to the population every generation. It might work for a bit, putting a scarcity value on both goods, services and housing and creating a boom. But it is all false GDP, and will lead to National bankruptcy. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559776/This-week-Eurocrat-told-Britain-benefit-tourism-myth-read-Rudi-huge-Romanian-family-say-new-home-Your-benefits-crazy-Its-like-finding-sackful-cash-left-road.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, crashmonitor said: This old article just sums up why we had to leave the EU. It's sickening, even the Romanians don't understand our generosity. A 100 strong clan in nottingham receiving benfits none of whom appear to work or have been asked to do so. You can be all politically correct about this, as some have on this thread. But sorry our benefits system would mean a 10 milliion addition to the population every generation. It might work for a bit, putting a scarcity value on both goods, services and housing and creating a boom. But it is all false GDP, and will lead to National bankruptcy. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559776/This-week-Eurocrat-told-Britain-benefit-tourism-myth-read-Rudi-huge-Romanian-family-say-new-home-Your-benefits-crazy-Its-like-finding-sackful-cash-left-road.html It would be a ******ing disaster in a recession. Even if working jobs displacement happens - there is no advantage (other than giving the employer reduced wages) to creating new unemployed, the employees affected will likely become highly disincentivized workers, really, why bother if there is another route out. Congrats you've just created another slew of benefits claimants. There are some that say that displacement doesn't happen, in some industry sectors it has been endemic. Just one recent example. I personally know of over a hundred jobs in asbestos removal in the north east that have been lost to Eastern Europeans because they're willing to work for just over minimum wage. The local lads we're getting nearly double that and, unsurprisingly, aren't willing to do a dirty, unpleasant job for less than they can make stacking shelves in Lidl. I was speaking to the guy who ran the demolition firm taking down a chemical plant I was buying salvage from and he said: "Ive always used local lads but everyone else is switching to the Romanians on £7.50 an hour, if I don't do the same then I can't compete and I'm out of business." Edited February 28, 2017 by onlyme2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shea VanHaven Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, crashmonitor said: This old article just sums up why we had to leave the EU. It's sickening, even the Romanians don't understand our generosity. A 100 strong clan in nottingham receiving benfits none of whom appear to work or have been asked to do so. You can be all politically correct about this, as some have on this thread. But sorry our benefits system would mean a 10 milliion addition to the population every generation. It might work for a bit, putting a scarcity value on both goods, services and housing and creating a boom. But it is all false GDP, and will lead to National bankruptcy. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559776/This-week-Eurocrat-told-Britain-benefit-tourism-myth-read-Rudi-huge-Romanian-family-say-new-home-Your-benefits-crazy-Its-like-finding-sackful-cash-left-road.html This is exactly the point I made to the missus last night, when yet again we were discussing her position, and while "dissing" Brexit, she gleefully raised the fact that Germany is apparently welcoming everyone who has a pulse with wide open arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 41 minutes ago, flb said: 92.8% British. 7.2% non-British (2.2% EU, 5% non-EU) Easy targets, no government or non-government organizations to defend them, fits the narrative, cowardice etc. The figures in the pdf I linked speak loudly. So you're saying only 2.2% of all EU migrants are claiming tax credits? Or is that not included in the benefits list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, flb said: Grasping at straws. The figures may not be completely accurate (wonder where the people at hmrc and dwp were born?). But when their own figures state that almost 93% are British, with the other 7% dominated by non-EU citizens (5% of the total), there's little left to argue. The problem is that 93% who are British include immigrants who have got British passport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, crashmonitor said: This old article just sums up why we had to leave the EU. It's sickening, even the Romanians don't understand our generosity. A 100 strong clan in nottingham receiving benfits none of whom appear to work or have been asked to do so. You can be all politically correct about this, as some have on this thread. But sorry our benefits system would mean a 10 milliion addition to the population every generation. It might work for a bit, putting a scarcity value on both goods, services and housing and creating a boom. But it is all false GDP, and will lead to National bankruptcy. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2559776/This-week-Eurocrat-told-Britain-benefit-tourism-myth-read-Rudi-huge-Romanian-family-say-new-home-Your-benefits-crazy-Its-like-finding-sackful-cash-left-road.html You don't think it might make more sense to change the crazy benefits system than to leave the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, Jugador said: The 2nd paragraph in section 2, the FAQ's speaks loudly to me. "Consequently there is no complete picture of the number of migrants to the UK or foreign nationals in the UK who receive UK social security benefits and tax credits, or the cost of this." This is what happens when you pay people public money to give away public money. They don't cease to give a s**t, they never actually give a s**t. They just dole it out. It would not be that difficult to add a field to new NI numbers saying "country of origin" so we could report on it - even for the Government. Likewise it would not be that difficult for councils to record where their tenants were born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Just now, thecrashingisles said: You don't think it might make more sense to change the crazy benefits system than to leave the EU? Sadly that was not an option in the referendum - nor is there a party that wants to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Just now, iamnumerate said: Sadly that was not an option in the referendum - nor is there a party that wants to do that. Politics isn't just a consumer good. If you don't like what's on offer, as a citizen you have a duty to get involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: You don't think it might make more sense to change the crazy benefits system than to leave the EU? I absolutely agree with you. But don't you think that the EU might have been a bit more accommodative with the fact that we shouldn't treat a migrant workforce the same as the indigenous population as regards benefits. Open borders should have meant open for work not benefits. It is the Constitution of the EU that was all wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Just now, thecrashingisles said: Politics isn't just a consumer good. If you don't like what's on offer, as a citizen you have a duty to get involved. Chance of getting involved as an individual and changing government position - fat chance. Chance of getting involved as an individual and changing EU position - no chance. Hence Brexit, one step at a time. Next realistic chance of any change, the next general election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Politics isn't just a consumer good. If you don't like what's on offer, as a citizen you have a duty to get involved. We did - we voted Brexit, and many Remainers were sad that we got involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoperational Bumblebee Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: It would be nice to see what proportion of EU citizens are claiming benefits vs what proportion of Brits are claiming benefits vs what proportion of non EU citizens are claiming benefits - that would give an objective view. It appears that non EU nationals are currently the biggest group of benefits users (amongst non Brits that is) - so its hard to understand why the focus here appears to be purely on the EE contingent?? I'd hazard a guess that our home grown Wayne and Waynettas would probably win hands down on benefits largesse - so why not also focus on them? Maybe its just fashionable to focus on none facts. Did you miss this whopping thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoperational Bumblebee Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) . Edited February 28, 2017 by Inoperational Bumblebee Stupid forum software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoperational Bumblebee Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) . Edited February 28, 2017 by Inoperational Bumblebee Stupid forum software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 1 minute ago, iamnumerate said: Sadly that was not an option in the referendum - nor is there a party that wants to do that. Which goes back to the question which group of people is the benefits system designed for. Seeing as (apparently) lots of politicians are heavily invested in property and BtLs and likely quite a few are landowners/farmers and so on. Not to mention those that have banking interests as well as a prospect of a banking sinecure after leaving/being kicked out of Parliament. Etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Just now, crashmonitor said: I absolutely agree with you. But don't you think that the EU might have been a bit more accommodative with the fact that we shouldn't treat a migrant workforce the same as the indigenous population as regards benefits. Open borders should have meant open for work not benefits. It is the Constitution of the EU that was all wrong. Worse than that they didn't want to know. Cameron went to EU with election promises to sort of various obvious issues. EU told him to piss off, we're not interested, here's some crumbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Politics isn't just a consumer good. If you don't like what's on offer, as a citizen you have a duty to get involved. If I were capable of persuading everyone that we need to change the benefit system, I would be in Syria bringing peace to the region. It took 50 years to screw it up to this degree - it is not an overnight change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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