Btl Scum Regrouping And On The Offensive. -- Merged

[PropertyMania]

7 hours ago, Venger said:

It's like you have the mind of a BTLer.  Welcome to 'the' thread.

 

OK, I was bit blurry eyed this morning and didn't think it through. I can't stand the BTL brigade, they are the Daily Mail in human form. Being married to one must be worse than having genital warts. At least the day  of reckoning is coming for the 99% who refuse to get out now.

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, PropertyMania said:

OK, I was bit blurry eyed this morning and didn't think it through. I can't stand the BTL brigade, they are the Daily Mail in human form. Being married to one must be worse than having genital warts. At least the day  of reckoning is coming for the 99% who refuse to get out now.

Looking at Vanessa and remembering she was a rawk DJ, id guess genital warts are the least of your worries.

[Lavalas]

Slim pickings over at 118 now that most of them have essentially given up on the 'Tenant tax' campaign. Although it's comforting to know that Ros is still fighting the good fight, or rather writing the bad letter. This time it's Crisis' turn to give her short shrift. I include here as a useful reminder of how f#cked she is - 80k mortgage interest.

https://www.property118.com/crisis-campaign-home-no-less-will-do/94402/

[spyguy]

1 hour ago, Lavalas said:

Slim pickings over at 118 now that most of them have essentially given up on the 'Tenant tax' campaign. Although it's comforting to know that Ros is still fighting the good fight, or rather writing the bad letter. This time it's Crisis' turn to give her short shrift. I include here as a useful reminder of how f#cked she is - 80k mortgage interest.

https://www.property118.com/crisis-campaign-home-no-less-will-do/94402/

80k mortgage interest today ...  40k interest tax levy next tax year.

[Exiled Canadian]

26 minutes ago, spyguy said:

80k mortgage interest today ...  40k interest tax levy next tax year.

assuming a 5% interest rate that's £1.6m of mortgage debt.  Assuming another (say) £600k of "equity" (I use invested commas advisedly) that's over £2m she has spent on houses in the the Valleys......that's probably c. 40 houses - does Ros own (or should I say owe money on?) a whole pit village?

How bonkers is that?  What bank thinks that this is a good business plan

[spyguy]

1 minute ago, Exiled Canadian said:

assuming a 5% interest rate that's £1.6m of mortgage debt.  Assuming another (say) £600k of "equity" (I use invested commas advisedly) that's over £2m she has spent on houses in the the Valleys......that's probably c. 40 houses - does Ros own (or should I say owe money on?) a whole pit village?

How bonkers is that?  What bank thinks that this is a good business plan

Any bank regulated by Gordon Brown.

IO BTL was all fkcing insane.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

15 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Any bank regulated by Gordon Brown.

IO BTL was all fkcing insane.

I've said before, as IRs tend to 0 I/O BTL mortgages can support infinitely high house prices.

....and have been.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

er 

19 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

assuming a 5% interest rate that's £1.6m of mortgage debt.  Assuming another (say) £600k of "equity" (I use invested commas advisedly) that's over £2m she has spent on houses in the the Valleys......that's probably c. 40 houses - does Ros own (or should I say owe money on?) a whole pit village?

How bonkers is that?  What bank thinks that this is a good business plan

The banks that are lending her your children's future to gamble on ?

[Pop321]

38 minutes ago, Exiled Canadian said:

assuming a 5% interest rate that's £1.6m of mortgage debt.  Assuming another (say) £600k of "equity" (I use invested commas advisedly) that's over £2m she has spent on houses in the the Valleys......that's probably c. 40 houses - does Ros own (or should I say owe money on?) a whole pit village?

How bonkers is that?  What bank thinks that this is a good business plan

Very generous with the 5% - mine average less than 2%. Maybe she has given away her rates during her ramblings....but if not she could be paying 3% approx. 

Her debts could easily be £3m....which is the frightening thing when rates are so low.....its easy to forget to 'respect the debt'. 

£3m debt on teeny tiny South Wales homes. I bet those cash buyers can't wait to swallow them up.....not! 

[Lavalas]

A nice little reminder that these days the BTL Scum Regrouping and on the Offensive really just means getting together to discuss throwing in the towel and selling up...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1394781467231520&id=1077700412272962

And these are the ones who are aware of Section 24. I hate the fact that I'm wishing time away waiting for the rest to cotton on and sell.

[MrXxx]

Well that last one in the list provided by Lavalas made me laugh...

... I am probably burying my head in the sand but the thought of selling all my properties, some with tenancies 10 years old, to come away with say 15k - 20 k equity each just dose not give me the option to replace my current income. Added to this 14 fixed rate mortgages with exit fees of up to £4500 each until 2020 I am between a rock and a hard place. Currently trying to get down the LTD route gradually with the ones not on fixed rates, then do the rest as I can. Only option my heart will follow through...

So say his average property value is £75k...making a profit of 15k per property over ten years means he 'made' 2%pa return before tax assuming that he owned the property outright...some financial wizz kid then!

[Patient London FTB]

40 minutes ago, Lavalas said:

A nice little reminder that these days the BTL Scum Regrouping and on the Offensive really just means getting together to discuss throwing in the towel and selling up...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1394781467231520&id=1077700412272962

And these are the ones who are aware of Section 24. I hate the fact that I'm wishing time away waiting for the rest to cotton on and sell.

Good find. Not sure if anyone saw the Evening Standard's 'The Accidental Landlord' column last week. It isn't online yet but when they put it up I'm going to put a link to it here. 

Short story is she's been writing this column for a long time, she has 4 properties, and last week she admits she's been putting off dealing with Section 24. She starts off the column by setting out three different possible courses of action, none of which is to sell but one of which of course is to raise the rents. She ends it by admitting that she'll have to sell one of her flats or raise the rents. 

[Neverwhere]

10 hours ago, Exiled Canadian said:

assuming a 5% interest rate that's £1.6m of mortgage debt.  Assuming another (say) £600k of "equity" (I use invested commas advisedly) that's over £2m she has spent on houses in the the Valleys......that's probably c. 40 houses - does Ros own (or should I say owe money on?) a whole pit village?

How bonkers is that?  What bank thinks that this is a good business plan

Very good! Somehow I think your "equity" is probably closer to the mark as well.

Quote

What next for buy-to-let landlords struggling to make ends meet?

Another landlord, owner of 36 properties worth £4m in Cardiff and south Wales, who wished to remain anonymous, said she currently makes a £50,000-a-year profit from the rent after mortgage costs, but this will drop by around £10,000 once the 2017 tax changes feed through. “What is really worrying though, is what will happen if interest rates go up at any point by, say 3%. I will be paying an extra £45,000 mortgage interest [on a mortgage debt of £1.5m] and my income would go down from £50,000 to £5,000 a year.”

If interest rates rise further, she says her tax bill will be higher than her net income, because the new tax rules slash the amount of mortgage interest she can offset against tax. “It is going to be catastrophic for many landlords with large portfolios and large amounts of mortgage interest to pay.”

She is now planning to remortgage some properties and sell off others, although the houses she bought for £60,000 in the Welsh valleys 10 years ago are selling for little more than that today.

 

[Bear Hug]

17 minutes ago, Neverwhere said:

Very good! Somehow I think your "equity" is probably closer to the mark as well.

 

There really are some similarities between the worst BLT magnets.  Getting sued, writing crappy books and trying to get on the news for any however irrelevant reason.

Author Ajay Ahuja, who grew up in Harlow attending Stewards Academy and Harlow College, said a library book had changed his life.

"When I was at Harlow College we used to spend time in the library, and there was a book I took out that pretty much changed my life," he said.

"It was called The Miracle Of Metaphysics. I borrowed that book and I used to renew it all the time. If there were funding cuts for libraries you wonder whether that book would have been there."

Mr Ahuja has published 14 books with major publishers, and self-published fiction novel Beyond Vengeance last year. The book is set in Harlow.

He made his name as a buy-to-let property magnate, and several of his books are on the subject.

He said: "I hear that you have to make cuts, but a book costs £8 or £9 and the contribution the community gets from that would be far greater."

http://www.hertsandessexobserver.co.uk/book-spending-by-essex-libraries-halves-in-five-years/story-30031146-detail/story.html

 

[Venger]

1 hour ago, Neverwhere said:

Very good! Somehow I think your "equity" is probably closer to the mark as well.

Good memory with the Guardian article on those figures.

I track the stated positions of a lot of BTLers, simply to better get an overview of wider BTL positions, in this market.   To try and determine how S24 likely to affect some BTLers.

Recall that LL giving some numbers in this 2015 post as well. 

https://www.property118.com/budget-2015-landlords-reactions/76164/comment-page-108/#comment-59484

[Pop321]

16 hours ago, Phil321 said:

Very generous with the 5% - mine average less than 2%. Maybe she has given away her rates during her ramblings....but if not she could be paying 3% approx. 

Her debts could easily be £3m....which is the frightening thing when rates are so low.....its easy to forget to 'respect the debt'. 

£3m debt on teeny tiny South Wales homes. I bet those cash buyers can't wait to swallow them up.....not! 

I stand corrected. Her ramblings do suggest £1.5m. 

If only there was something that she could do to reduce the debt and at the same time reduce the 'gross income'. Hmmm...no, stop thinking that way, just write a ranty letter to an MP and tell them they are a stupid facist.  

Those who do not shoulder the responsibility for their investment and market choices, will be impacted the most.  

[Venger]

Few hours sleep and up again, in a complicated schedule, on the wider renter-saver side.  Not life of living in a dressing gown, sneering at the renter-savers workers around them (BTLer stories I have read).

This always astonishes me.

Late 2014 and BTLers quizzing the MPs to make sure they're doing more and more for the BTLer cause.  

The meaning of politics; making BTLers happy? 

To earn the BTLers all-important vote. 

Before the impossibility move 'must have it wrong' / 'must be a mistake' / 'confident can get this reversed' move of Section 24 announced in summer budget 2015, 8 July 2015.

Quote

 

Is your MP a landlords champion?
Published on 30/10/2014 

With the 2015 elections coming up in six months time it’s time for landlords to start lobbying their MP’s. We need them to realise that over 1 million UK based landlords have a voice and have needs. Is your MP a landlords champion?

I am urging all landlords to write to their MP with a letter similar to my own (see below in italics).

You can be sure that tenants and lobby groups such as Shelter will be doing the same, so if we landlords keep quiet, as the usually do, the only voices MP’s will hear in terms of issues surrounding the PRS will be from those who despise landlords.

My letter to my MP (sent by email) ……

SUBJECT:- Forthcoming elections

“Dear Mr Freeman

As a resident of your constituency, and along with more than a million landlords operating in the residential private rented sector, I am beginning to consider who to vote in the forthcoming elections. I want to be certain that you will support landlords in parliamentary debates so I would be interested to understand how you feel about the following issues which are of primary concern to myself and my peers..

continues: https://www.property118.com/mp-landlords-champion/69840/

-----------------------
This meant that in my late 20s I was able to put a deposit down on a house and later on I decided to move in with my partner and rented the first house out. Over the years we raised equity from this house to buy others and in this way we became landlords.

.....

It is thus extremely galling to us that so many people and organisations feel able to landlord-bash. Indeed, our taxes even contribute to the funds of these groups who hold extreme, one-sided, anti-landlord views and who only ever see the side of the tenant (even when that tenant has wrecked a house and/or owes a landlord hundreds or thousands of pounds). They always see the tenant as the victim and the landlord as some kind of perpetrator.

Clearly, this is grossly unfair.

I also object to the idea that others not in the same financial position as me are more worthy than me, having spent their money on more frivolous items whilst I invested in property.

1. We often invest in old, sometimes decrepit housing and we restore it and bring it back into use. When we do this, it is a financial gamble as property values can go up or down.

....I would appreciate a response to this letter and also could you let me know whether you personally rent out a house to anyone, as the property website Property118 is conducting a survey on this? I will also be publishing your response (or lack thereof) on the website, so that other landlords in this constituency will have the opportunity to decide whether they should vote for you in the General Election or not.

 

Political and tax rule change gambles too.  Measures to perhaps bring those values down and bring about some openings for would-be homeowners against the BTLer double-downing superior vote casters.

How much is enough property for one person, or one couple?  How many houses need to lay claim to.  How much debt is safe to take out, in a system which was rewarding big tax breaks for those who took out more and more against claims on even more property?  

How productive a thing to do?  Taxes going into running the country, and some rule rebalance to make things fair.   CGT mad-gainz is not a thing for priced-out renters.  There's no CGT to pay.  Just up against high house prices.   

I object to people working hard who can't get any real position for the productivity of their work, against possibility of homeownership, at the prices around them - and BTLers who have been buying up more and more houses from the market, outbidding those would-be owners, year after year after year.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Venger

[spyguy]

If theyd invested i.e.bought with cash then they are not affected.

Theresno investment, just insane leverage.

[Blod]

39 minutes ago, spyguy said:

If theyd invested i.e.bought with cash then they are not affected.

Theresno investment, just insane leverage.

S24 is doing a service, helping prevent fools realise that leveraged debt is toxic. All tax relief should be removed. 

[TheCountOfNowhere]

10 minutes ago, Blod said:

S24 is doing a service, helping prevent fools realise that leveraged debt is toxic. All tax relief should be removed. 

...and BTL taxed into oblivion.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

52 minutes ago, spyguy said:

If theyd invested i.e.bought with cash then they are not affected.

Theresno investment, just insane leverage.

I said to someone on twitter yesterday that I have no beef with landlords who have used their own cash to buy, my issues are with levered up, tax payer funded, I/O BTLers.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

[VeryMeanReversion]

29 minutes ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

 

I assume the reason is blame avoidance i.e.

NIMBYs get upset by building anything => Blame targeted at local politicians.

Money is borrowed to pay housing benefit so no-one notices (yet). The BTL'rs love it. The tenants get "free" housing.

Printing money seems to have no downsides (yet)

 

 

[Blod]

1 hour ago, TheCountOfNowhere said:

...and BTL taxed into oblivion.

we accept the harm smoking does, so its only logical to tax BTL in the same way.

[Lavalas]

13 hours ago, Patient London FTB said:

Good find. Not sure if anyone saw the Evening Standard's 'The Accidental Landlord' column last week. It isn't online yet but when they put it up I'm going to put a link to it here. 

Short story is she's been writing this column for a long time, she has 4 properties, and last week she admits she's been putting off dealing with Section 24. She starts off the column by setting out three different possible courses of action, none of which is to sell but one of which of course is to raise the rents. She ends it by admitting that she'll have to sell one of her flats or raise the rents. 

Yes, please do post a link if the article appears on line. It must have been fantastic to read if the column has been running a long time.

11 hours ago, Neverwhere said:

Very good! Somehow I think your "equity" is probably closer to the mark as well.

 

Well done on finding the Guardian article detailing the mysterious Welsh landlords situation. I'd spent a bit of time trying to find that a few months ago without success. HPC never forgets!