interestrateripoff Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Five reasons Alex Salmond is secretly hoping for a No vote voicesIs a huge gamble on oil keeping the First Minister up at night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 BTW, are they just talking about giving income tax powers? - I'd be much morre interested if they hadd the scope to vary other taxes and shift the burden onto different types of taxes like e.g. a mansion tax - things tried out in Scotland might then catch on here! ....as I said "responsible for it's own tax revenues , even setting them..." the flexibility to set the level would be part of the deal ...can't see how else when the benefits are so different.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 ....as I said "responsible for it's own tax revenues , even setting them..." the flexibility to set the level would be part of the deal ...can't see how else when the benefits are so different.... They already have a limited tax levying power, but have never used it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 They already have a limited tax levying power, but have never used it! ...so if it comes to it ...Devo-Max could be interesting .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) A lot of Tory MPs are talking about the financial costs to the rest of the UK of giving the Scots the DevoMax in the event of a No vote. But what are the extra costs? Isn't it about giving more autonomy rather than more money? Devo Max is full fiscal autonomy which means Scots control nearly all internal tax and spending so if there are extra costs they will fall on Scotland. Devolving decisions on tax is already pretty much Tory party policy so I am not quite sure what Tory MPS are complaining about http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2014/09/how-to-revive-the-conservatives-in-scotland.html Devolution, however, is about more than just political policy making. The key issue is who runs the day to day administration of any tax and spending system. If the actual machinery of government such as HMRC or the DWP remains run from Whitehall then there is really no change in the way the UK is governed. In fact while people (myself included) like to slag off the Westminster political elite it needs to be remembered that is in Whitehall where the real resistance to Scottish devolution exists. it is all those juicy UK wide contracts for government services and the prosperous careers and comfy sinecures that can be created from them by senior politicians and civil servants alike which is what is being defended here not the House of Commons. When it comes to screwing up the lives of ordinary people expense troughing Westminster MPs are just bit part players, The real villains sit in Whitehall and they never stand for election Edited September 18, 2014 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 They already have a limited tax levying power, but have never used it! The existing powers are extremely limited. The 1998 Scotland Act only allowed the Scottish Parliament to set a Scottish Variable rate that could alter the basic rate of tax by 3p in the pound. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Government/Finance/scottishvariablerate The Scotland Act 2012 greatly enhanced those powers but is not scheduled to become effective until 2016 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2012 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/scottish-rate.htm Even then the levying and collection of the tax would be in the hands of HMRC so control would effectively lie in Whitehall not Scotland I believe that currently the Revenue have no way of identifying Scottish taxpayers apart from their last known home address which may not be an accurate reflection of where some people work or even are domiciled. In fact this is the primary reason why the original variable rate was never implemented. The cost of administering this within the wider UK system would have actually been almost as much as the amount of tax collected. For Scotland to have effective devolution it needs a tax system that is not run by the creaking pile of crap that is HMRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 The existing powers are extremely limited. The 1998 Scotland Act only allowed the Scottish Parliament to set a Scottish Variable rate that could alter the basic rate of tax by 3p in the pound. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Government/Finance/scottishvariablerate The Scotland Act 2012 greatly enhanced those powers but is not scheduled to become effective until 2016 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2012 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/scottish-rate.htm Even then the levying and collection of the tax would be in the hands of HMRC so control would effectively lie in Whitehall not Scotland I believe that currently the Revenue have no way of identifying Scottish taxpayers apart from their last known home address which may not be an accurate reflection of where some people work or even are domiciled. In fact this is the primary reason why the original variable rate was never implemented. The cost of administering this within the wider UK system would have actually been almost as much as the amount of tax collected. For Scotland to have effective devolution it needs a tax system that is not run by the creaking pile of crap that is HMRC. But the powers could still have raised substantial sums - enough to offest the alleged shortfall from Westminster. If they had used it, maybe more people would have clicked about the future direction of Scotland under devolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Devo Max is full fiscal autonomy which means Scots control nearly all internal tax and spending so if there are extra costs they will fall on Scotland. Devolving decisions on tax is already pretty much Tory party policy so I am not quite sure what Tory MPS are complaining about http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2014/09/how-to-revive-the-conservatives-in-scotland.html Devolution, however, is about more than just political policy making. The key issue is who runs the day to day administration of any tax and spending system. If the actual machinery of government such as HMRC or the DWP remains run from Whitehall then there is really no change in the way the UK is governed. In fact while people (myself included) like to slag off the Westminster political elite it needs to be remembered that is in Whitehall where the real resistance to Scottish devolution exists. it is all those juicy UK wide contracts for government services and the prosperous careers and comfy sinecures that can be created from them by senior politicians and civil servants alike which is what is being defended here not the House of Commons. When it comes to screwing up the lives of ordinary people expense troughing Westminster MPs are just bit part players, The real villains sit in Whitehall and they never stand for election ...great post and insight...this situation drives the need to move Government out of London and Whitehall ...old bastions of Empire ...and focus on today's world in an almost Green Field site like York or Carlisle....add professionalism to the Civil Service and HMRC and train them in how to manage devolved Government ....we need real trainers to keep an eye on them ...and transparent tenders for all Government Contracts....that's a start..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 thanks for that 1929crash, I had a feeling it would be too much to get a non partisan answer to the question of whether thatcher destroying industry was worth the pain longterm, especially in scotland. As I said earlier, Bliar/Brown destroyed far more British industry, why are you so keen to bang on about 'fatcher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) + VW Hang on, the Mk 1 Golf is considered one of the all time greats, are you seriously comparing that to the Austin Allegro? Edited September 18, 2014 by Goat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) Mazda had the same troubles as BL at the same time, but upgraded its products with state help. Upgrading the products? THAT'S CODE FOR SACKING MY WORKERS!!!! STRIKE!!!!!!!!!! PS. If it's the story I'm thinking about it's a lot more complicated than that. Edited September 18, 2014 by Goat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Scotland lost a third of its maufacturing jobs between 1979 and 1987 - which put us on the road to this referendum. IIRC isn't that also the period when robots and automation really started to take off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 After the next 24 hours do we have a period of 6 months with no more Scots on TV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 IIRC isn't that also the period when robots and automation really started to take off? Germany didn't lose a third of its manufacturing jobs between 1979 and 1987. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Sky News reporting electroal fraud in Glasgow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) Germany didn't lose a third of its manufacturing jobs between 1979 and 1987. Germany didn't have 1/3 of it's workers using 1940s manufacturing techniquies fighting for the socialist ideal. Edited September 18, 2014 by Goat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Sky News reporting electroal fraud in Glasgow. How surprising! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Goldfish Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Hang on, the Mk 1 Golf is considered one of the all time greats, are you seriously comparing that to the Austin Allegro? No, that would be funny . Especially as I ended up with an Allegro as my first car. I only meant that just before the Golf, VW almost went bust after releasing a string of duds and it was only with massive governement investment to produce the Golf that they turned it around. Now they are the biggest car maker in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Germany didn't have 1/3 of it's workers using 1940s manufacturing fighting for the socialist ideal. Germany since 1945 has been much more of a social democratic welfare state than ever was the case with Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) Some YES female getting a bit agitated IMPO on Sky News at the moment. Edit: Did she just say that Scotland is the poorest country in the Western World? Nah, that is my country. Edited September 18, 2014 by The Masked Tulip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquid Goldfish Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) ....as I said "responsible for it's own tax revenues , even setting them..." the flexibility to set the level would be part of the deal ...can't see how else when the benefits are so different.... I've not heard that. Everything I've heard has been about just being given greater income tax powers. It's one of the things Alex Salmond was saying in the last couple of days e.g. he was saying under what was being offered by the other parties they wouldn't be able to alter corporation tax or do anything else with taxes - it was limited to setting income tax. Edited September 18, 2014 by oldsport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Hmm, as I suspected - if the vote is NO a lot of the nats ain't going to accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Germany didn't lose a third of its manufacturing jobs between 1979 and 1987. Are you basing that on facts or preconceptions? German unemployment rose dramatically in the 70s and 80s and reached 4.8 million at the end of the 90s. http://www.bpb.de/geschichte/deutsche-einheit/lange-wege-der-deutschen-einheit/47242/arbeitslosigkeit?p=all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929crash Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Are you basing that on facts or preconceptions? German unemployment rose dramatically in the 70s and 80s and reached 4.8 million at the end of the 90s. http://www.bpb.de/geschichte/deutsche-einheit/lange-wege-der-deutschen-einheit/47242/arbeitslosigkeit?p=all German unemployment went into the stratosphere after 1990 when the capitalist west was attempting to asimiliate the formerly communist east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 German unemployment went into the stratosphere after 1990 when the capitalist west was attempting to asimiliate the formerly communist east. And why did it rise before then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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