Coping With Depression, Anxiety & Everyday Life

[Freeholder]

Why would a therapist do such a thing?

Because there is money in it. I saw the results close up.

[Economic Exile]

Whilst it's not quite as simple as that, for the most part the answer to depression is 'action' of some sort.

I know from my own experiences with it that I have to put mechanisms in place to remind me to do things otherwise I'll end up daydreaming, staring into space, with my self esteem going further down the tube because I've wasted another day/month/year - that's the difficult bit I guess....getting started.

There's other aspects of depression that don't fall under that umbrella however, like compulsive negative thoughts (which cah whizz around your head even if your busy, but in most cases being busy does help diminish them), and feeling emotionally dead/unable to experience pleasure - as far as I know this latter one is something that the medications can't help improve?

I also think a very important thing is to learn how to act with value, i.e. as someone with a bit of self-respect, and remove or limit contact with people from your life who treat you badly. This can be difficult when these people are family members or a significant other, but have the wrong people around you and regardless of your resilliance, they'll grind you down and make you a shadow of who you could be.

Case in point, I've been living alone for over 4 years now, and it was the best move I ever made. Should have done it years ago. In my mid 20's when I told my parents I was going to move out my father mocked me, basically telling me that I wouldn't be able to cope, and then critisized the area/flat I moved to before he'd even seen it. Mind you, while I was living at home and paying £250 a month housekeeping I was made to feel a scrounger, frequently when bills came in I'd get the "oh I'll get this one will I Joe?" passive aggressive comment - couldn't win either way. Ironcally he went straight from living with his mother to living with my mother, so what the hell would he know about living alone.

The point is if I had listened to him tell me I couldn't cope by myself, I'd have made the biggest mistake of my life and continued living at home. I think there's lots of people who are unhappy because they've surrounded themselves with people who tell them they are incompteent and no good, or that they should 'be realistic' and 'know their limits', and they believe them. Such people would be better off alone; with a bit of space to work out who they are and what they are capable of.

I agree with you.

You've taken a very courageous step in life to go it alone in life and see where it takes you. Many people are very very afraid to be alone. I was but it was forced on me when I became a single parent at a time when I found it difficult to cope with life and was very unhappy because of family related stuff.

In hindsight I'm glad I've been alone because ultimately it's led me to making a life that suits me and I'm not anxious or depressed or dependent on anyone else to make me content.

[snowflux]

Because there is money in it. I saw the results close up.

I've never had therapy myself, but after my missus died, I used to meet up with a group of other widow(er)s, some of whom had had therapy. Most of them spoke very highly of their therapist, saying that he or she had helped them a lot in getting their lives back on track again. Those were the good ones, I think.

I don't dispute though that there are probably also plenty of therapists whose main function is to make rich people reliant on them while relieving them of some of their riches. Those are the bad ones!

Edit: Your dad sounds a right arsehole, Joe. Well done for getting away from him, though I guess he's already done you a fair amount of damage. Can only get better now though!

[Freeholder]

I've never had therapy myself, but after my missus died, I used to meet up with a group of other widow(er)s, some of whom had had therapy. Most of them spoke very highly of their therapist, saying that he or she had helped them a lot in getting their lives back on track again. Those were the good ones, I think.

I don't dispute though that there are probably also plenty of therapists whose main function is to make rich people reliant on them while relieving them of some of their riches. Those are the bad ones!

Edit: Your dad sounds a right arsehole, Joe. Well done for getting away from him, though I guess he's already done you a fair amount of damage. Can only get better now though!

There are of course good therapists. The charlatens however do not only prey on the rich.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Intense exercise is the key to a happy life.

The end.

I think there's some truth to that for most people - it certainly works for me for example - but, from what I've seen, those with the worst forms of depression need something more.

[JustYield]

Since when was Governance something that you can do nothing about (in the UK, at least)?

I take it from the above that you have not made an in-depth study of the subject.

The popular understanding of "stoicism" is not Stoicism.

You are railing against a chimera.

I have never suffered clinical depression; just melancholy and the usual neuroses against which I've found Cognitive (neo-Stoic) approaches most helpful for restoring balance. For instance. Albert Ellis's REBT and particularly his "12 iirrational ideas":

12 IRRATIONAL IDEAS THAT CAUSE AND SUSTAIN NEUROSIS

Rational therapy holds that certain core irrational ideas, which have been clinically

observed, are at the root of most neurotic disturbance. They are:

(1) The idea that it is a dire necessity for adults to be loved by significant others for

almost everything they do — instead of their concentrating on their own self-respect, on

winning approval for practical purposes, and on loving rather than on being loved.

(2) The idea that certain acts are awful or wicked, and that people who perform such acts

should be severely damned — instead of the idea that certain acts are self-defeating or

antisocial, and that people who perform such acts are behaving stupidly, ignorantly, or

neurotically, and would be better helped to change. People’s poor behaviors do not make

them rotten individuals.

(3) The idea that it is horrible when things are not the way we like them to be — instead

of the idea that it is too bad, that we would better try to change or control bad conditions

so that they become more satisfactory, and, if that is not possible, we had better

temporarily accept and gracefully lump their ex istence.

(4) The idea that human misery is invariably externally caused and is forced on us by

outside people and events — instead of the idea that neurosis is largely caused by the

view that we take of unfortunate conditions.

(5) The idea that if something is or may be dangerous or fearsome we should be terribly

upset and endlessly obsess about it — instead of the idea that one would better frankly

face it and render it non-dangerous and, when that is not possible, accept the inevitable.

(6) The idea that it is easier to avoid than to face life difficulties and self-responsibilities

— instead of the idea that the so-called easy way is usually much harder in the long run.

(7) The idea that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than

ourselves on which to rely — instead of the idea that it is better to take the risks of

thinking and acting less dependently.

(8) The idea that we should be thoroughly competent, intelligent, and achieving in all

possible respects — instead of the idea that we would better do rather than always need to

do well and accept ourselves as a quite imperfect creature, who has general human

limitations and specific fallibilities.

(9) The idea that because something once strongly affected our life, it should indefinitely

affect it — instead of the idea that we can learn from our past experiences but not be

overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.

(10) The idea that we must have certain and perfect control over things — instead of the

idea that the world is full of probability and chance and that we can still enjoy life despite

this.

(11) The idea that human happiness can be achieved by inertia and inaction — instead of

the idea that we tend to be happiest when we are vitally absorbed in creative pursuits, or

when we are devoting ourselves to people or projects outside ourselves.

(12) The idea that we have virtually no control over our emotions and that we cannot

help feeling disturbed about things — instead of the idea that we have real control over

our destructive emotions if we choose to work at changing the musturbatory hypotheses

which we often employ to create them.

http://www.rebt.ws/albert_ellis_the_essence_of_rebt.htm

That's an interesting list, thanks.

When you get used to catching emotions before they overwhelm you, you soon get very good at noticing when others are losing control and falling into repetitive, unhelpful responses. With my sister and before that my mother, I learnt that they would bounce around from one emotion to the next and often the best thing to do was not say anything or walk away and avoid contact for a while. The problem with that is they think you are in avoidance mode - when in fact they are just trying to ensnare you into their drama du jour when you may not even accept the premise [on which they are so upset about] and there is no way through to them when they are in that state. Too many women in my life during my formative years; no dad around (on a daily basis).

Sorry, word salad.

[Turned Out Nice Again]

That's an interesting list, thanks.

When you get used to catching emotions before they overwhelm you, you soon get very good at noticing when others are losing control and falling into repetitive, unhelpful responses. With my sister and before that my mother, I learnt that they would bounce around from one emotion to the next and often the best thing to do was not say anything or walk away and avoid contact for a while. The problem with that is they think you are in avoidance mode - when in fact they are just trying to ensnare you into their drama du jour when you may not even accept the premise [on which they are so upset about] and there is no way through to them when they are in that state. Too many women in my life during my formative years; no dad around (on a daily basis).

Sorry, word salad.

Women, in my experience, don't "get" Stoicism,

[MrPin]

Women, in my experience, don't "get" Stoicism,

They find ukuleles appealing though! My mate's daughter doesn't like big guitars any more! She wants "plinky", because it's a "lady shape! You naughty man!

[ccc]

I think there's some truth to that for most people - it certainly works for me for example - but, from what I've seen, those with the worst forms of depression need something more.

You are probably right. I suppose what I am saying is when exercising it is virtually impossible to be depressed. Has there ever been a person on this entire planet running up a hill with their heart pumping and breathing through their **** who gets to the top and their first thought is " oh I feel so down and depressed today " ?

Nope - I don't think even one ever in history. It is literally impossible. Your brain switches to a different zone - you are not capable of being depressed at such a moment. The body and brain simply does not allow it.

There is also a lasting effect - but yes no doubt it doesn't last forever. So I suppose the answer is just to do more until there are no gaps in the 'therapy' ?

[winkie]

I agree that keeping busy keeps you thinking outwardly and upwardly not inwardly.......there has to be good reasons to get up every day, bright and early you could start the day off going for a run up the hill......procrastination is the killer.

[JustYield]

You are probably right. I suppose what I am saying is when exercising it is virtually impossible to be depressed. Has there ever been a person on this entire planet running up a hill with their heart pumping and breathing through their **** who gets to the top and their first thought is " oh I feel so down and depressed today " ?

Nope - I don't think even one ever in history. It is literally impossible. Your brain switches to a different zone - you are not capable of being depressed at such a moment. The body and brain simply does not allow it.

There is also a lasting effect - but yes no doubt it doesn't last forever. So I suppose the answer is just to do more until there are no gaps in the 'therapy' ?

I suggest you watch the Ben Fogle / James Cracknell documentary when they walked to the South Pole before finalising your opinion on this. Fascinating for anyone interested in the mental aspect of endurance.

As our resident manic MrPin! advised above, the Catch 22 is getting a depressed person motivated to do anything, let alone something that at first is physically painful.

I used to joke that the answer for depressed people was to "go to Brazil". I'm not sure anyone got it, or if I really believe it myself.

[JoeDavola]

When you get used to catching emotions before they overwhelm you, you soon get very good at noticing when others are losing control and falling into repetitive, unhelpful responses. With my sister and before that my mother, I learnt that they would bounce around from one emotion to the next and often the best thing to do was not say anything or walk away and avoid contact for a while. The problem with that is they think you are in avoidance mode - when in fact they are just trying to ensnare you into their drama du jour

I know of an online therapist who talks about 'not following a woman down her emotional rabbit-hole'.

I'd be interested to know how you got better at 'catching emotions before they overwhelm you' - is this meditation basically?

Too many women in my life during my formative years; no dad around (on a daily basis).

+ 1000000

Years spent listening to mum complain about anything and everything, and relating to her mainly through this, while Dad was mostly absent (though either being at work or being asleep on the sofa). I remember as a 17/18 year old feeling guilty, like it was my fault she wasn't happy as I couldn't 'save' her from an unhappy marriage.

It's only been in the last couple of years where I've read about things like 'emotional incest' that I've realized that this wasn't healthy, and as an adult it was her job to sort her marriage/life out, not use her adolsecent son as an emotional tampon.

I really have to keep a close eye on myself that I don't revert back to overreacting emotionally as I've seen both mum and dad do this, dad 'raging' and mum as the eternal 'victim/wiaf'.

I think all kids of about 15 should be taught life skills before they leave school. Some basic psycology and different personality types, and the ability to step back and be self aware. It would be more useful than the vast majority of things that we are taught at school.

[JustYield]

I know of an online therapist who talks about 'not following a woman down her emotional rabbit-hole'.

I'd be interested to know how you got better at 'catching emotions before they overwhelm you' - is this meditation basically?

Yes, don't go there.

If you do find yourself being overwhelmed, remember as the OP said, "This, too, will pass.", a famous Sufi saying.

This is an essential start to mindfulness. You might benefit from reading Eckhart Tolle, but he's not for everyone!

[This post took ages - I wrote a lot, decided it was just a lot of words and left only the above. HTH. ]

[winkie]

[ccc]

I suggest you watch the Ben Fogle / James Cracknell documentary when they walked to the South Pole before finalising your opinion on this. Fascinating for anyone interested in the mental aspect of endurance.

As our resident manic MrPin! advised above, the Catch 22 is getting a depressed person motivated to do anything, let alone something that at first is physically painful.

I used to joke that the answer for depressed people was to "go to Brazil". I'm not sure anyone got it, or if I really believe it myself.

I think I have seen that - and not sure exactly how its relevant to what I am talking about ?

A painful trek in freezing temperatures over a long period of time is not exactly what I had in mind.....

I agree with the motivation thing. But that's their problem and they have to fight through it. You have to do these things yourself.

If you are depressed and know there is something out there that may help - but don't have the motivation to do it - then so be it. I don't have a huge amount of sympathy.

As they say in the Shawshank - get busy living or get busy dying.

[JustYield]

I think I have seen that - and not sure exactly how its relevant to what I am talking about ?

If you are depressed and know there is something out there that may help - but don't have the motivation to do it - then so be it. I don't have a huge amount of sympathy.

Even Olympians can be struck low by depression, even while being physically active, on camera, with a goal! Relevant enough for Off Topic.

I don't blame you for lacking sympathy, but it shows you do not really understand the nature of depression. Lucky you.

[Riedquat]

You are probably right. I suppose what I am saying is when exercising it is virtually impossible to be depressed. Has there ever been a person on this entire planet running up a hill with their heart pumping and breathing through their **** who gets to the top and their first thought is " oh I feel so down and depressed today " ?

You can always be distracted by something, in that case by the more immediate physical issues. Doesn't change anything overall though. Exercise hard enough and most of the other things that you might normally dwell on that you enjoy will be pushed out of your mind too.

All too many people just seem to keep themselves happy by piling on the distractions. That's just burying your head in the sand.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

You are probably right. I suppose what I am saying is when exercising it is virtually impossible to be depressed. Has there ever been a person on this entire planet running up a hill with their heart pumping and breathing through their **** who gets to the top and their first thought is " oh I feel so down and depressed today " ?

Nope - I don't think even one ever in history. It is literally impossible. Your brain switches to a different zone - you are not capable of being depressed at such a moment. The body and brain simply does not allow it.

There is also a lasting effect - but yes no doubt it doesn't last forever. So I suppose the answer is just to do more until there are no gaps in the 'therapy' ?

In terms of blocking out all unwanted thoughts, I find driving around a race-track to be the ultimate approach - you can't stop to ponder the misery of life when you might well die as a result. On the gaps part, have you read Born to Run? There's definitely an undercurrent of what you're saying in the whole ultra-marathon thing.

[little fish]

You can always be distracted by something, in that case by the more immediate physical issues. Doesn't change anything overall though. Exercise hard enough and most of the other things that you might normally dwell on that you enjoy will be pushed out of your mind too.

All too many people just seem to keep themselves happy by piling on the distractions. That's just burying your head in the sand.

Spot on. There are times when the foundation that sources the depression needs to be addressed, accepted and understood. Exercise is an extremely beneficial distraction, but like all distractions it offers temporary relief. A routine, daily habit of exercise will eventually change the neural pathways strengthening a more positive outlook -helpful for people with reactionary depression who have the capacity to integrate exercise into their lives. For others classed as clinically depressed more exploration is needed. If your childhood was, for example, a nightmare of abuse and pain, that, as an adult haunts you, no amount of running will change that. Yet others with similar backgrounds are less affected. Complicated subject. If we could just figure out how to amplify resilience in people...

Economic Exile - fair play to you, excellent thread and so good to hear of some one over coming substance addiction and depression. Both tough battles which many lose. Well done (wary of saying that as I think it may sound patronising but that is far from my intention ).

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Whilst it's not quite as simple as that, for the most part the answer to depression is 'action' of some sort.

I know from my own experiences with it that I have to put mechanisms in place to remind me to do things otherwise I'll end up daydreaming, staring into space, with my self esteem going further down the tube because I've wasted another day/month/year - that's the difficult bit I guess....getting started.

There's other aspects of depression that don't fall under that umbrella however, like compulsive negative thoughts (which cah whizz around your head even if your busy, but in most cases being busy does help diminish them), and feeling emotionally dead/unable to experience pleasure - as far as I know this latter one is something that the medications can't help improve?

I also think a very important thing is to learn how to act with value, i.e. as someone with a bit of self-respect, and remove or limit contact with people from your life who treat you badly. This can be difficult when these people are family members or a significant other, but have the wrong people around you and regardless of your resilliance, they'll grind you down and make you a shadow of who you could be.

Case in point, I've been living alone for over 4 years now, and it was the best move I ever made. Should have done it years ago. In my mid 20's when I told my parents I was going to move out my father mocked me, basically telling me that I wouldn't be able to cope, and then critisized the area/flat I moved to before he'd even seen it. Mind you, while I was living at home and paying £250 a month housekeeping I was made to feel a scrounger, frequently when bills came in I'd get the "oh I'll get this one will I Joe?" passive aggressive comment - couldn't win either way. Ironcally he went straight from living with his mother to living with my mother, so what the hell would he know about living alone.

The point is if I had listened to him tell me I couldn't cope by myself, I'd have made the biggest mistake of my life and continued living at home. I think there's lots of people who are unhappy because they've surrounded themselves with people who tell them they are incompteent and no good, or that they should 'be realistic' and 'know their limits', and they believe them. Such people would be better off alone; with a bit of space to work out who they are and what they are capable of.

Are you sure there's anything really wrong with you, Joe? From all your posts its sounds like you have accumulated a lot of bad behavioural habits rather than being 'broken' as such in the first place. What I've highlighted above certainly chimes with me and those themes can't be alien to people with a little self awareness even if the effect on their lives (and mine) is not of the same magnitude as it is to yours.

That's not to make light of the challenge you (me and everyone) faces but you must be able to admit to yourself that you are doing more than alright. I assume you do actually want to work, have relationships, travel and see places as that's what you've been telling us you've been doing. Now that you're doing those things, do you still think you're wasting another week/month/year? Sorry, I don't mean to pry and I'm not going to belittle your problems by telling you that you just need to do something. When it comes to motivation I know exactly where a complete lack of it leaves you and not even fear can provide any drive. You really don't want to be left hoping that something bad happens.

[Economic Exile]

Spot on. There are times when the foundation that sources the depression needs to be addressed, accepted and understood. Exercise is an extremely beneficial distraction, but like all distractions it offers temporary relief. A routine, daily habit of exercise will eventually change the neural pathways strengthening a more positive outlook -helpful for people with reactionary depression who have the capacity to integrate exercise into their lives. For others classed as clinically depressed more exploration is needed. If your childhood was, for example, a nightmare of abuse and pain, that, as an adult haunts you, no amount of running will change that. Yet others with similar backgrounds are less affected. Complicated subject. If we could just figure out how to amplify resilience in people...

Economic Exile - fair play to you, excellent thread and so good to hear of some one over coming substance addiction and depression. Both tough battles which many lose. Well done (wary of saying that as I think it may sound patronising but that is far from my intention ).

No offence taken at your well done comment

I've found the thread very interesting. It's good to be able to read about others views, tips and experiences.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all path to take to overcoming anxiety/depression. It's a complex thing and humans have described these feelings throughout history.

I think the most important thing is to take some kind of initial action then keep exploring other options until problems diminish. For some that can be in weeks or months and for others unfortunately it can take years.

There's plenty of info and suggestions out there in books and online.

[JoeDavola]

Are you sure there's anything really wrong with you, Joe? From all your posts its sounds like you have accumulated a lot of bad behavioural habits rather than being 'broken' as such in the first place. What I've highlighted above certainly chimes with me and those themes can't be alien to people with a little self awareness even if the effect on their lives (and mine) is not of the same magnitude as it is to yours.

That's not to make light of the challenge you (me and everyone) faces but you must be able to admit to yourself that you are doing more than alright. I assume you do actually want to work, have relationships, travel and see places as that's what you've been telling us you've been doing. Now that you're doing those things, do you still think you're wasting another week/month/year? Sorry, I don't mean to pry and I'm not going to belittle your problems by telling you that you just need to do something. When it comes to motivation I know exactly where a complete lack of it leaves you and not even fear can provide any drive. You really don't want to be left hoping that something bad happens.

Hey - no offence taken, I don't post my thoughts for hugs or ego boosts, I like a bit of honest debate! So I appreciate the post.

The wasted day/month/year bit.... I do feel like that sometimes, but if I were to rationally look at what I do every year I guess I'd have to agree that I'm not a total loser sitting in their parents basement 24/7. I'm earning a living, looking after myself, and doing a reasonable bit of travelling.

But I still have these chonic feelings of inadequacy. I feel I haven't lived the life I feel I could have, or achieved as much as I could, because of my constantly daydreaming/wandering mind, my tendency towards depression and social withdrawl and my difficulty in finding 'my people'; i.e. people that I really connect with. I also have a number of niggling medical issues, I haven't felt fully 'well' in years.

But as for being 'broken', who knows. It's all subjective isn't it. We've all got our quirks. I'm self aware anyway, and I think I'm getting wiser as the years pass.

On a lighter note today I wrote a bit of comedy in the morning, then went to the gym for a while, contacted someone I hadn't seen in a while and went to the cinema/drink with them, and got my shopping done. So I'm in good form today

[Economic Exile]

Yes, don't go there.

If you do find yourself being overwhelmed, remember as the OP said, "This, too, will pass.", a famous Sufi saying.

This is an essential start to mindfulness. You might benefit from reading Eckhart Tolle, but he's not for everyone!

[This post took ages - I wrote a lot, decided it was just a lot of words and left only the above. HTH. ]

Just bumping this saying up.

I think this saying is profound insight to the nature of reality. It took me a fair while to appreciate and benefit from it's wisdom.

Anyone can test it's truth by personal observation.

The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that everything changes, nothing remains without change. The challenge is to deal with it!

[Bora Horza]

If you are depressed and know there is something out there that may help - but don't have the motivation to do it - then so be it. I don't have a huge amount of sympathy.

I think the term “Depression” is quite unhelpful because it is in such widespread use in every-day language and that results in people misunderstanding what depression really is.

Had a bad day a work? “I'm depressed because of work”.

Football team lost? “I'm depressed my team is doing badly in the league!”

What these people are really describing is bad or low mood, not depression.

Proper clinical depression starts to change peoples' thought patterns in abnormal ways; thinking becomes circular and negative, thinking can start to slow down, in extreme cases consciousness can shut down and the person can become non-responsive.

Once that process of abnormal thinking starts it becomes very difficult for that person to be aware that there are rational ways out of their depression.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

My own tonic for never ever being depressed (which I never do) is that i love to solve problems/challenges, and this will sound odd, but spent a large portion of my life hoping for things to go wrong in some way, so that I could actually help out - so in one sense I am never disappointed as I always see worse out come as possible than what actually happens (this is why I like HPC). Rather weird, but I could almost call it a superhero complex. I'm not deluded enough to make things go wrong myself in a Munchhausen by proxy kind of way, but a massive asteroid plunging toward to Earth or threatened Nazi invasion is the sort of mobilization challenge I'd relish - though not something I'd actually want to happen of course.

I don't think society really needs people like this very often, but when it does, it really needs them. I find I can fuss over minor detail, but can be very calm is a crisis, and the bigger the crisis the better. My heroes are people like Red Adair.