Screening Candidates Based On Criterias Such As 2.1 Degree

[CasualBear]

My anecdote here: advertised a job in nature and elsewhere. Specifically said that would take someone without experience (we have a youth unemployment crisis).

Got two types of people: mid career experienced scientists in the UK and graduates from outside the UK. Presumably the UK graduates all go to work at Barclays, or something.

[eek]

My anecdote here: advertised a job in nature and elsewhere. Specifically said that would take someone without experience (we have a youth unemployment crisis).

Got two types of people: mid career experienced scientists in the UK and graduates from outside the UK. Presumably the UK graduates all go to work at Barclays, or something.

Oh being unemployed after leaving Uni no longer had access to Nature and so didn't and could not see the advert.

[MarkG]

When did 'discriminating' become a bad word?

Lefties generally aren't very nice or very smart, so if employers are allowed to discriminate between candidates they'll never get a job. Not to mention that their wet dream is the day that no employer will be allowed to choose their employees because the Glorious People's State will assign people to jobs; oddly, while there will be no discrimination, the lefties will be running the big corporations and anyone to the right of Stalin will be sweeping the streets.

[CasualBear]

Oh being unemployed after leaving Uni no longer had access to Nature and so didn't and could not see the advert.

Nature jobs is free to post and view, otherwise I wouldn't have gone for it: http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/science/welcome

[frozen_out]

My anecdote here: advertised a job in nature and elsewhere. Specifically said that would take someone without experience (we have a youth unemployment crisis).

Got two types of people: mid career experienced scientists in the UK and graduates from outside the UK. Presumably the UK graduates all go to work at Barclays, or something.

This is an interesting point. Where are all the UK graduates? Of the 150 aforementioned CVs I think probably 10 were from British students.

[Nationalist]

I think people who do these inspections should be followed around by three normal people armed with tea trays, and when they come out with any idiotic crap the observers have full permission to beat some sense into them!

In the case of the emergency services and the forces, where many of these decisions can be life or death they should be excluded from such meddling (difficult in the case of emergency services because they are usually funded by the council),

I worked briefly for a small town council a couple of years ago, I had to do several hours of diversity and equality online courses before they would let me write code and configure computers, reasonable enough I guess, I was very careful afterwards never to demean or insult any electronic device they had (I just used to think "Bloody Microsoft crap" not say it aloud)

Nah, you'll never get the tray idea past Elf 'n' Safety.

But on the diversity front you're OK to insult Micro$oft 'cos they're evil capitalists. But you must not hurt Linux's feelings or its sensitivity training for you.

The emergency services seem to have forgotten that getting hurt, or even dying, is in the job description. Their yellow streak is getting wider by the day.

[SarahBell]

Next headline to be "New grading on degrees so only one grade"

[fluffy666]

Lefties generally aren't very nice or very smart,

We also smell a bit odd.

[easy2012]

Lefties generally aren't very nice or very smart, so if employers are allowed to discriminate between candidates they'll never get a job. Not to mention that their wet dream is the day that no employer will be allowed to choose their employees because the Glorious People's State will assign people to jobs; oddly, while there will be no discrimination, the lefties will be running the big corporations and anyone to the right of Stalin will be sweeping the streets.

Err... actually many lefties are very good at pretending to be nice and pretending to be very smart (like several of our past esteemed leaders) and can even be pretty charming.

But even in USSR they weren't going to put incompetent people on their space program or Fighter jet program just because they are from a certain background.

[jammo]

We also smell a bit odd.

I don't like it when you go to shake a lefty's hand. Do it properly or not at all you baffoon!

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

- I think I've flushed out an arts grad!

I'm an Oxbridge arts grad and a science grad. The arts one was way harder. FWIW.

[Cinzano Bianco]

My anecdote here: advertised a job in nature and elsewhere. Specifically said that would take someone without experience (we have a youth unemployment crisis).

Got two types of people: mid career experienced scientists in the UK and graduates from outside the UK. Presumably the UK graduates all go to work at Barclays, or something.

Here is the problem:

(I am not suggesting this is your advert)

<snip>

Essential Skills

We are looking for candidates with a strong track record of academic achievement including a relevant degree. Good computational skills and an at least basic working knowledge of statistical analysis are essential. In particular:

• a PhD in a relevant biological subject area

• good scripting/programming skills (e.g. Perl and R)

• demonstrable experience in working on gene expression, (post)transcriptional control, or similar functional genomics expertise

• good working knowledge of statistical methods

• demonstrable experience and initiative in developing and leading projects

• strong written and verbal communication skills

Ideal Skills

• a solid foundation in molecular biology

• demonstrable experience in combining computational and laboratory work

• strong track record in publishing scientific work in international peer-reviewed journals

• experience of working with next-generation sequencing data

• experience of working in a Unix environment

• experience of working on protozoan parasites or other pathogens

• demonstrable good project management and organizational skills.

<snip>

Salary range £28563 to £35795 dependent on experience.

I guess people this qualified are supposed to work for the love of it and not the money, or whatever. In the UK generally, and Cambridge especially I would guess, up to £35k for those kind of qualifications and experience is a pittance. Is it any wonder science grads end up in front of Bloomberg terminals?

I barely know what any of the biological stuff is, but I would expect to earn more with just the perl and unix skills in some kind of server admin role, and that isn't even my speciality... We simply do not value our scientific people enough.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Here is the problem:

(I am not suggesting this is your advert)

I guess people this qualified are supposed to work for the love of it and not the money, or whatever. In the UK generally, and Cambridge especially I would guess, up to £35k for those kind of qualifications and experience is a pittance. Is it any wonder science grads end up in front of Bloomberg terminals?

I barely know what any of the biological stuff is, but I would expect to earn more with just the perl and unix skills in some kind of server admin role, and that isn't even my speciality... We simply do not value our scientific people enough.

"We offer a comprehensive range of benefits including a final salary pension scheme"

Where do I sign?

[madpenguin]

Here is the problem:

(I am not suggesting this is your advert)

I guess people this qualified are supposed to work for the love of it and not the money, or whatever. In the UK generally, and Cambridge especially I would guess, up to £35k for those kind of qualifications and experience is a pittance. Is it any wonder science grads end up in front of Bloomberg terminals?

I barely know what any of the biological stuff is, but I would expect to earn more with just the perl and unix skills in some kind of server admin role, and that isn't even my speciality... We simply do not value our scientific people enough.

I have had this kind of list on innumerable IT jobs, usually when they have a list this long when you actually get the job you find they need you to use 2 of the advertised skills at most and the rest are put in "just in case we need them" or maybe to kid themselves the job is more "skilled" than it is.

Worked for a large pharma company for a while, when I learned the pittance they paid their research staff I was truly amazed, especially as they had slogged through a Science based degree rather than going for an easier subject, no wonder so many end up in the City

[moesasji]

I have had this kind of list on innumerable IT jobs, usually when they have a list this long when you actually get the job you find they need you to use 2 of the advertised skills at most and the rest are put in "just in case we need them" or maybe to kid themselves the job is more "skilled" than it is.

Looking at the specified skills in combination with the salary range it is an advertisement for a research post at a university, probably a postdoctoral research assistant at a level where you can start straight out of your PhD.

Assuming it is advertised by a strong university you can be pretty certain that several applicant meet and even exceed all of these criteria...first step on a career that is not (necessarily) driven by just the money.

[ChumpusRex]

Think next will be that making ability to speak English a requirement will be deemed discriminatory..

It already is! Under EU employment law, it is considered discrimination to ask an EU job applicant for proof that they can speak English, or to ask them to take a language test.

This particular issue was raised by the GMC with regard to several recent high-profile cases where EU doctors seriously messed-up, because they couldn't speak English properly. When the GMC was asked why they allowed these doctors a license to work in the UK, the explanation was that the GMC could not refuse, as it was a criminal offence to require any kind of language test (for an EU applicant).

In a job interview, you could probably find a way to penalise someone for not speaking the language, while not actually saying it is for reasons of language - but even so...

[snowflux]

It already is! Under EU employment law, it is considered discrimination to ask an EU job applicant for proof that they can speak English, or to ask them to take a language test.

This particular issue was raised by the GMC with regard to several recent high-profile cases where EU doctors seriously messed-up, because they couldn't speak English properly. When the GMC was asked why they allowed these doctors a license to work in the UK, the explanation was that the GMC could not refuse, as it was a criminal offence to require any kind of language test (for an EU applicant).

In a job interview, you could probably find a way to penalise someone for not speaking the language, while not actually saying it is for reasons of language - but even so...

Are you sure?

When I was in Germany, almost every ad for a technical position required candidates to be able to speak, read and write English to a reasonable standard. It would be rather strange if you could require employees to be able to speak English in Germany but not in the UK!

[Kurt Barlow]

Are you sure?

When I was in Germany, almost every ad for a technical position required candidates to be able to speak, read and write English to a reasonable standard. It would be rather strange if you could require employees to be able to speak English in Germany but not in the UK!

I have just looked at 3 jobs which I am qualified to do other than the fact Dutch, Romanian, and Hungarian language skills are a prerequisite of each job.

It wouldn't surprise me though if the UK has to permit anyone irrespective of english language skills whilst I am barred from the 3 jobs above such is the levelness of EU rules

[moneyscam]

Are you sure?

When I was in Germany, almost every ad for a technical position required candidates to be able to speak, read and write English to a reasonable standard. It would be rather strange if you could require employees to be able to speak English in Germany but not in the UK!

Equal treatment

Any EU citizen has the same right to work in another EU country as nationals of that country:

• under the same conditions and
• without having to apply for a work permit.

No restrictions – quantitative limits or discriminatory recruitment criteria – can be placed on the recruitment of nationals of other EU countries.

Exceptions

• Language skills – job candidates from other EU countries may be required to demonstrate they have the language skills needed for the job, but the level of language knowledge required must be reasonable and necessary for the post. Employers cannot demand only a specific qualification as proof.
• New EU countries – during a transitional period, access to employment may still be restricted for workers from the EU's new member countries.

You're right, straight from the horses mouth

http://ec.europa.eu/...d=462&langId=en

[rxe]

It is a filter. Our graduate recruitment programme is flooded with literally 10s of thousands of applications. If we considered each one carefully, we'd spend all our time reading CVs and very little earning money. You have to have a way of cutting it down to a manageable pile - so imposing a filter of 2.1 or better is as good as any. Speaking as someone who got a 2.2, you might as well filter on "A-M" in the bin, but people would get pissed off.

Anyone who has been to a half decent university and got a 2.1 has the raw intellect/application to do the job. What I do at interview is get them to explain what they have done. I give them 30 minutes to speak about a subject they know inside out: I don't give a monkey's what the subject is, I want them to explain it to me and impart some of the passion that prompted them to study said subject for several years. If I walk out of the interview having learned something, and been enthused about the subject, they tend to get an offer. At the end of the day these guys need to impart leadership to their teams, encourage people to work bloody hard and inspire clients to buy "us". If they cannot do this for a subject that they have studied for several years, this is not the job for them.

I am often amazed at difference in quality of degree...and the results of this simple test. You can get firsts from top end Russell Group who fall flat on their faces. PhDs are often awful at it. Some of the most unlikely candidates do very well.

[MarkG]

But even in USSR they weren't going to put incompetent people on their space program or Fighter jet program just because they are from a certain background.

Their actual record would seem to indicate otherwise. Nedelin as one glaring example: 'of course it's perfectly safe to send hundreds of people back to a fully-fuelled rocket that's leaking nitric acid to fix it'.

[porca misèria]

Anyone who has been to a half decent university and got a 2.1 has the raw intellect/application to do the job. What I do at interview is get them to explain what they have done. I give them 30 minutes to speak about a subject they know inside out: I don't give a monkey's what the subject is, I want them to explain it to me and impart some of the passion that prompted them to study said subject for several years.

So you're evaluating their communication skills. Are those a necessary part of the job?

If I walk out of the interview having learned something, and been enthused about the subject, they tend to get an offer. At the end of the day these guys need to impart leadership to their teams, encourage people to work bloody hard and inspire clients to buy "us". If they cannot do this for a subject that they have studied for several years, this is not the job for them.

Ah, it would appear so.

I am often amazed at difference in quality of degree...and the results of this simple test. You can get firsts from top end Russell Group who fall flat on their faces. PhDs are often awful at it. Some of the most unlikely candidates do very well.

Top firsts and PhDs have demonstrated outstanding subject skills, but that's not in general the same as communication skills. Don't autistic traits (and aspergers) sometimes correlate with high intelligence and singleminded focus?

[Tiger Woods?]

Anyone who has been to a half decent university and got a 2.1 has the raw intellect/application to do the job. What I do at interview is get them to explain what they have done. I give them 30 minutes to speak about a subject they know inside out: I don't give a monkey's what the subject is, I want them to explain it to me and impart some of the passion that prompted them to study said subject for several years. If I walk out of the interview having learned something, and been enthused about the subject, they tend to get an offer. At the end of the day these guys need to impart leadership to their teams, encourage people to work bloody hard and inspire clients to buy "us". If they cannot do this for a subject that they have studied for several years, this is not the job for them.

I am often amazed at difference in quality of degree...and the results of this simple test. You can get firsts from top end Russell Group who fall flat on their faces. PhDs are often awful at it. Some of the most unlikely candidates do very well.

Sometimes the more in depth knowledge one has of a subject the more difficult it is to give a glib 30 minute presentation. I'm much more able to spend 30 minutes talking interestingly about something I only know a little bit about than something I have deep specialist knowledge of. Not knowing what you don't know can make talking about a topic a lot easier. cf. Dunning-Kruger effect.

[200p]

Only one question is needed in this modern world of work. Are you smart?

During his admissions interview for Harvard Business School, he stated that he was asked if he was smart, to which he supposedly replied, "I'm f*cking smart." Jeffrey Keith "Jeff" Skilling, former president of Enron.

[rxe]

difficult it is to give a glib 30 minute presentation

It isn't a glib 30 minute presentation - it is me sitting there asking stupid questions about it, asking about the application of whatever it is they are talking about (why is it important, how might one make money out of it) . It is a key skill: can you impart the knowledge that you have in a non-patronising, helpful and engaging manner? When you get a good 'un, it is very clear.