Sarko: "if You Don't Sick To The Rules, Leave Eurozone.

[lie to bet]

Does this mean he is about to take France out of the Euro.

He may have forgotten how the French cheated the figures to meet the rquirements to join the Euro, but it will come back to haunt them.

This is the trouble with politicians, they tell so many half truths that they start to believe the nonsense they make up.

This is what makes them so dangerous.

[uztopride]

Key Details of ESM

Article 8 says "Authorized Capital stock 700 billion Euros"

Article 9 says "ESM members irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay capital calls on them within 7 days"

Article 10 allows the ESM board of governors to "change the authorized capital and amend article 8 accordingly"

Article 27 says ESM shall enjoy "immunity from every form of judicial process". Thus the ESM can sue member countries but no one can challenge it. No governments, parliament or any other body or laws apply to the ESM or its organization.

Article 30 says "Governors, alternate governors, directors, alternate directors, the managing director and staff shall be immune from legal process with respect to acts performed by them (...) and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents"

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

Sarko has obviously been reading the results of the opinion poll in Greece which suggests that most Greeks do not want the bailout package (i.e. would prefer to default), but do want to keep the euro. It was reported on Today this morning that Sarko and Merkel are demanding that the referendum question be not 'Do you want the bailout package (and the austerity that goes with it)?', but 'Do you want Greece to stay in the euro?', presumably because the latter question offers a better chance of a positive result.

But the real question now is whether Papandreou survives in office long enough for there to be any referendum at all.

[The Masked Tulip]

I wonder if French intelligence has any interesting photos or videos of Greek politicians?

TMT in 'there is bound to be a sexual angle to these political twists and turns' mode.

[copydude]

Does this mean he is about to take France out of the Euro.

He may have forgotten how the French cheated the figures to meet the rquirements to join the Euro, but it will come back to haunt them.

This is the trouble with politicians, they tell so many half truths that they start to believe the nonsense they make up.

This is what makes them so dangerous.

They'd pretty well all have to leave if the treaty rules were applied.

Italy's government debt of 115 percent of GDP was dramatically higher than the 60 percent debt limit agreed to in the Maastricht Treaty. Belgium was also massively in violation of treaty provisions.

Despite all the declarations of intent in Maastricht, the 12 new euro countries drove up their debt by more than €600 billion in the five years of preparations for the introduction of the euro. By the end of 2002, they had a combined debt of €4.9 trillion, with Italy's debt alone amounting to €1.3 trillion.

From Spiegel: Euro - the ticking time bomb

Not to mention that what Sarkozy is proposing is in direct contravention of Maastricht: that countries should not be responsible for other countries' debt.

[beccles]

Sticking to the rules are we, Nicolas? France running a deficit of less than 3% is it? No? Out you go then.

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

I wonder if French intelligence has any interesting photos or videos of Greek politicians?

TMT in 'there is bound to be a sexual angle to these political twists and turns' mode.

If there were, I suspect that the general reaction would be along the lines of 'So what?'. The Greek political establishment have ãrse-raped their own population so comprehensively that I would be hard pressed to express any surprise at the news that they were doing likewise to each other.

[lie to bet]

They'd pretty well all have to leave if the treaty rules were applied.

From Spiegel: Euro - the ticking time bomb

Not to mention that what Sarkozy is proposing is in direct contravention of Maastricht: that countries should not be responsible for other countries' debt.

And yet nobody mentions this on all the news channels I heard this morning.

I could not believe Sarko had the nerve to say it.

Lies upon lies upon lies.

Yet most people are still not interested.

When will the panic start.

[lie to bet]

They'd pretty well all have to leave if the treaty rules were applied.

From Spiegel: Euro - the ticking time bomb

Not to mention that what Sarkozy is proposing is in direct contravention of Maastricht: that countries should not be responsible for other countries' debt.

And yet nobody mentions this on all the news channels I heard this morning.

I could not believe Sarko had the nerve to say it.

Lies upon lies upon lies.

Yet most people are still not interested.

When will the panic start.

[AteMoose]

Thinking about it there is NOTHING stopping the Greeks defaulting and keeping the euro, Greek printed Euros will be worthless but the country can continue to use French and German Euros and nobody can stop them. Its like an african country using the dollar because its convenient. Anyone can use Euros. For France and Germany the Greeks Defaulting but still use Euros would be a Knightmare senario and there is nothing they can do to stop Greece from going down this path

[copydude]

Thinking about it there is NOTHING stopping the Greeks defaulting and keeping the euro, Greek printed Euros will be worthless but the country can continue to use French and German Euros and nobody can stop them. Its like an african country using the dollar because its convenient. Anyone can use Euros. For France and Germany the Greeks Defaulting but still use Euros would be a Knightmare senario and there is nothing they can do to stop Greece from going down this path

Yes. Many precedents. In the nineties, Russians used dollars. The first thing they did with their wage packet was to change it into dollars. They were change kiosks on every housing estate.

When I first went to Moscow, I paid for everything in dollars. And for some things, like taxi rides, I paid in packets of Marlboro.

Actually, doesn't Montenegro use Euros? Is it an 'official' Euro country?

[AteMoose]

Yes. Many precedents. In the nineties, Russians used dollars. The first thing they did with their wage packet was to change it into dollars. They were change kiosks on every housing estate.

When I first went to Moscow, I paid for everything in dollars. And for some things, like taxi rides, I paid in packets of Marlboro.

Actually, doesn't Montenegro use Euros? Is it an 'official' Euro country?

Yes totally possible, many precedents, and a Nightmare senario....

Edited November 3, 2011 by AteMoose

[beccles]

The amusement of Sarkozy lecturing Greece about fiscal rules in the EU just underlines, if it needs underlining at this tragic point in history, the absurdity of the Euro.

It is irrelevant to me whether Greece holds a referendum, an election or a mad hatters tea party.

It isn't the point. If one small act of democracy by a country that contributes 2.5% of the gross GDP of the region threatens to bring the whole edifice down, then the edifice itself is fatally flawed, not Greece.

17 different economies, riddled with debt and unsustainable welfare regimes trying to hold together a currency that leaves 90% of the region uncompetitive in the global marketplace and managed by 17 different parliaments each with its own Machiavellian parade of vanity and ambition and a further 10 economies who aren't even in the Euro but possess a veto over pan-European decision making is lunacy.

I fail how to see how Greece can grow at any point in the future when it is still saddled with debt well over 100% of it's GDP, still paying high interest rates on new issuance and pegged to its own equivalent of the gold standard. The real debt cut will be well below the 50% headline rate and will quickly escalate again afterwards anyway with all the uncertainty and further risk reward interest rates that are associated with it.

It has to default and take the collective pain. Only default and national acceptance of default and the consequences can ensure economic rectitude. This fudge merely leaves Greeks with the vague notion that a cheque exists out there that will repeatedly compensate them for austerity, a declining economy pegged to an uncompetitive currency.

Italy is a classic case in point. It has no intention of reforming to any meaningful degree. Its industrial base is beginning to collapse, its government is a lame duck run by a man with clear mental issues and waiting in the wings are nationalists run by internal cartels.

Spanish banks are bankrupt and the French have a welfare system that runs on the notion that Germany should pay war reparations to ensure wine and easy living until Armageddon.

Clearly no-one trusts each other or likes each other.

I think it is time to stop navel gazing and look to the bigger picture.

What frightens me is growing protectionism, nationalism and currency wars.

Europe needs to decide if it is going to integrate. If so then it needs to start the debate now because, as you have seen in Greece, you must have a democratic mandate. In a democracy, power flows from legitimacy and legitimacy can only exist from a public mandate.

The uncertainty in Europe isn't fiscal, it's political.

And the political weakness derives from the lack of democratic mandate.

Last weeks deal was constructed purely to avoid having to make a constitutional decision.

Evermore complex derivative cobbled together ******** designed purely to avoid democratic accountability, designed to avoid constitutions rather then embracing them.

So this crisis will meander on and pull the whole world into its grip until we finally have the courage to ask the question that we have all been avoiding.

Do you want fiscal and political union in Europe or do we not?

But you cannot avoid asking the question forever, slowly dragging us all towards something truly awful, because you are scared of the answer.

So in that sense, Papandreou is doing the right thing.

[interestrateripoff]

Sarko has obviously been reading the results of the opinion poll in Greece which suggests that most Greeks do not want the bailout package (i.e. would prefer to default), but do want to keep the euro. It was reported on Today this morning that Sarko and Merkel are demanding that the referendum question be not 'Do you want the bailout package (and the austerity that goes with it)?', but 'Do you want Greece to stay in the euro?', presumably because the latter question offers a better chance of a positive result.

But the real question now is whether Papandreou survives in office long enough for there to be any referendum at all.

So they want the question to be do you want to stay in the Euro and have the austerity package?

Sounds like they are trying to fudge the question, if they do that the referendum is pointless and they still won't get anywhere.

I wonder how many people the EU have got working on a question where they think they'll get a yes vote.

This is going to get messy.

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

Thinking about it there is NOTHING stopping the Greeks defaulting and keeping the euro, Greek printed Euros will be worthless but the country can continue to use French and German Euros and nobody can stop them. Its like an african country using the dollar because its convenient. Anyone can use Euros. For France and Germany the Greeks Defaulting but still use Euros would be a Knightmare senario and there is nothing they can do to stop Greece from going down this path

Why would that necessarily be a nightmare? The reason why USDs are regarded as real money in the tinpot African hellholes is that control of the currency is outside the control of the local batsh!t crazy dictator, i.e. he cannot print the things. Average citizens have very few of them because they have to be bought with actual goods or services, i.e. real GDP. Surely the same thing would happen in Greece if they left the euro formally, but kept using it informally. The drachma would exist alongside the euro and establish an exchange rate with it. Before long, when you go into a bar or whatever, your shot of ouzo will be 1.99 euros or 26.99 drachamas, please.

I can't see how that situation would undermine the eurozone or keep the EU political elite awake at night. If anything it would be a good deal for them, because Greece would have to pay for its euros with real output, and that would determine how many of them actually circulated within Greece.

[bendy]

So they want the question to be do you want to stay in the Euro and have the austerity package?

Sounds like they are trying to fudge the question, if they do that the referendum is pointless and they still won't get anywhere.

I wonder how many people the EU have got working on a question where they think they'll get a yes vote.

This is going to get messy.

[SHERWICK]

17 different economies, riddled with debt and unsustainable welfare regimes trying to hold together a currency that leaves 90% of the region uncompetitive in the global marketplace and managed by 17 different parliaments each with its own Machiavellian parade of vanity and ambition and a further 10 economies who aren't even in the Euro but possess a veto over pan-European decision making is lunacy.

you have a point.

[DabHand]

Key Details of ESM

Article 8 says "Authorized Capital stock 700 billion Euros"

Article 9 says "ESM members irrevocably and unconditionally undertake to pay capital calls on them within 7 days"

Article 10 allows the ESM board of governors to "change the authorized capital and amend article 8 accordingly"

Article 27 says ESM shall enjoy "immunity from every form of judicial process". Thus the ESM can sue member countries but no one can challenge it. No governments, parliament or any other body or laws apply to the ESM or its organization.

Article 30 says "Governors, alternate governors, directors, alternate directors, the managing director and staff shall be immune from legal process with respect to acts performed by them (...) and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents"

Guess the ESM army will have to do the invading then when a country tells them to go swiv'.

[winkie]

Sarko has obviously been reading the results of the opinion poll in Greece which suggests that most Greeks do not want the bailout package (i.e. would prefer to default), but do want to keep the euro. It was reported on Today this morning that Sarko and Merkel are demanding that the referendum question be not 'Do you want the bailout package (and the austerity that goes with it)?', but 'Do you want Greece to stay in the euro?', presumably because the latter question offers a better chance of a positive result.

But the real question now is whether Papandreou survives in office long enough for there to be any referendum at all.

....they all want their piece of cake and eat it......all fighting their own corner.....what is this game they are all playing called?.....will there be a winner or a loser?....we are three quarters of the way around the board...it is still anyone's game.

[Roman Roady]

If any of the PIIGS seriously looked like doing this, he'd change his tune PDQ.

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

Plus if the Greeks decide to keep printing euros all the rest of the ez need to do is change the plates

operating duel currencies could be the solution. The goverment could pay it's internal debts in new dracma and keep e for external ones

of course they better invest in some turbo charged presses and leave plenty of space on the new designs to add zeros

[lie to bet]

Report from the BBC Thursday, March 19, 1998 about how only two countries are meeting the Maastricht criteria for joining the EMU:

"Member countries have to meet strict economic criteria

European monetary union was agreed at Maastricht, the Netherlands, in December 1991. The EU heads of state and government set a fixed timetable for implementation of a single currency and agreed on five criteria how countries could qualifying for Emu. They are:

Countries should have an inflation rate within 1.5% of the three EU countries with the lowest rate. This will push down inflation rates and lead to more stable prices.

Long-term interest rates must be within 2% of the three lowest interest rates in EU.

Exchange rates must be kept within "normal" fluctuation margins of Europe's exchange-rate mechanism.

The amount of money owed by a government for 1997, known as the budget deficit, has to be below 3% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP - the total output of the economy). In exceptional circumstances a country can be above 3% and still qualify.

The total amount of money owed by a government, known as the public debt, has to be less than 60% of GDP.

Of the 12 countries wanting to join Emu, only ********** and ******* have fully met the currency criteria. "

Can you remember which two countries they were?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/single_currency/66945.stm