onlyme2 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 and it's fresh off the printing press. If central banks manipulate money to the poiint that it does not in itself return an income then it it worthless (certainly in the medium and long term). Therefore not repaying it is argably not risking anything or hurting anybody. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 If central banks manipulate money to the poiint that it does not in itself return an income then it it worthless (certainly in the medium and long term). Therefore not repaying it is argably not risking anything or hurting anybody. . Exactly, the CB`s have overplayed their hand a bit, they had a good scam going but people are starting to wake up to the game. Might have been better (for the CB`s and attached parasites) if they had allowed a correction before now, that way they could have kept the pretence going longer. Greece will default and the world will still turn, but belief in the "strong upright moral and fiscal discipline" that some VI`s think the little people need to apply to their debt pledges may evaporate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverfinger Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 "Sources close to Mr Tsipras say he is convinced that German leaders are bluffing and will ultimately yield rather than admit to their own people that the whole EMU crisis strategy has been a failure." That's what I would think too. But maybe they do a Lehman with Greece, then panic, and properly hyperinflate in due course, because no one can afford Italy or Spain getting flushed too. Gold to the moon in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/27/greece-alexis-tsipras-syriza-cabinet Tsipras’s Syriza party, which emerged as the winner of snap polls on Sunday, has been adamant that it will deal only with governments, and not the technocrats that represent the EU, ECB and IMF. Varoufakis is to represent Greece at eurozone meetings. That's brilliant. The really funny part about it is how it could equally well have been written by someone from the eurosceptic right in the UK. It's hard to remember, but there was a time when the left was opposed to faceless bureaucrats rather than being in favour of hiring more of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Sadman Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/27/greece-alexis-tsipras-syriza-cabinet That's brilliant. The really funny part about it is how it could equally well have been written by someone from the eurosceptic right in the UK. It's hard to remember, but there was a time when the left was opposed to faceless bureaucrats rather than being in favour of hiring more of them. Interestingly, they have chosen to go into coalition with a party wikipedia describes as right-wing and anti-immigration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Greeks Denninger posted this interesting video http://market-ticker.org/post=229782 The guy seems to talk straightfowardly enough...a world away from our moonbat green leftists. There is nothing right-wing or free market about what the ECB has been up to these past few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Doubtless the Greek government will be sanctioned/attacked soon. They are clearly working with Putin. Putin is also clearly to blame for them being voted in as well. lol http://rt.com/news/226947-greece-russia-statement-ukraine/ New Greek govt furious over EU 'unequivocal' anti-Russia statement The new Greek government has spoken out against the EU partners over the statement that lays the blame for Saturday’s fatal attack on the Ukrainian city of Mariupol on Russia. Hungary, Slovakia, and Austria voiced similar objections earlier. The government, headed by Prime Minister Alexis Tripras, said in a press release on Tuesday that “the aforementioned statement was released without the prescribed procedure to obtain consent by the member states, and particularly without ensuring the consent of Greece." “In this context, it is underlined that Greece does not consent to this statement,” Tsipras added. Edited January 28, 2015 by Errol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Doubtless the Greek government will be sanctioned/attacked soon. They are clearly working with Putin. Putin is also clearly to blame for them being voted in as well. lol http://rt.com/news/226947-greece-russia-statement-ukraine/ New Greek govt furious over EU 'unequivocal' anti-Russia statement The new Greek government has spoken out against the EU partners over the statement that lays the blame for Saturday’s fatal attack on the Ukrainian city of Mariupol on Russia. Hungary, Slovakia, and Austria voiced similar objections earlier. The government, headed by Prime Minister Alexis Tripras, said in a press release on Tuesday that “the aforementioned statement was released without the prescribed procedure to obtain consent by the member states, and particularly without ensuring the consent of Greece." “In this context, it is underlined that Greece does not consent to this statement,” Tsipras added. Athens is making it clear that if there is no debt relief, Greece will veto anything requiring unanimous assent. The EU system relies on governments being willing to compromise - if a government is not willing to compromise, it could bring all major business in the Eu to a halt over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Athens is making it clear that if there is no debt relief, Greece will veto anything requiring unanimous assent. The EU system relies on governments being willing to compromise - if a government is not willing to compromise, it could bring all major business in the Eu to a halt over time. Could see the EU going along with this for a while, gridning to a halt and then using it as an excuse to remove veto powers. These bought up shysters parading as politicians generally are very good at furthering their own 9or their funders') causes and never letting a good crisis going to waste or even creating a crisis (or allowing one to happen) in order to push through the changes they and their supporters want to make and the public does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Could see the EU going along with this for a while, gridning to a halt and then using it as an excuse to remove veto powers. These bought up shysters parading as politicians generally are very good at furthering their own 9or their funders') causes and never letting a good crisis going to waste or even creating a crisis (or allowing one to happen) in order to push through the changes they and their supporters want to make and the public does not. Therein lies the paradox.... They would still need a unanimous vote to end the so called veto... It wouldn't only be Greece going into the no lobby... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 3 days on.....still no significant sign of anything changing, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 3 days on.....still no significant sign of anything changing, Tspiras has done quite a bit to 'make his points'. The ball is with the EU, IMF and Mrs Merkel currently.. These from Guardian live blog over the last few days.. cut out a chunk of bureaucracy. Greece’s new radical left Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has made good on his promise to pare back government. He has establishment TEN ministries - and four super-ministries, a feat achieved overnight and one that starkly illuminates the failure of previous Greek governments to act on pledges to reform ministry structure Going after Tax Avoiders.. Yanis Varoufakis will have the formidable Nantia Valavani and Kostas Mardas as deputy finance ministers. Mardas, an economics professor, will be in charge of taxation policies. Syriza has said, repeatedly, it has “big fig” tax evaders in its sights. Valavani, a Syriza MP and prolific writer/translator is also a respected economist. Not wasting any time they have told Brussels to get stuffed over Russian Sanctions.. English translation: if we don't get our bail out or negotiation - we start blocking decisions. The new Greece government has opened up a row with Brussels about Russian sanctions, even before the cabinet was sworn in. The Wall Street Journal reports: A toughly worded statement on Russia issued Tuesday by European Union heads of governments didn’t have the consent of Greece’s new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, according to two Greek officials. “The statement does not have Greece’s consent,” a government official said. The official added that the Greek government will put out a statement later saying the European Council, the body which issued the statement, didn’t follow the correct procedure to win Athens’ consent. They've just stopped two privatisations. Guardian live blog Greece’s new anti-austerity government is making a dramatic start today, starting to unravel key parts of the country’s bailout deal. Energy minister Panagiotis Lafazanis has announced this morning that he will freeze plans to privatise the country’s dominant power utility PPC. Tsipras’s government has also pulled the plug on the sale of a stake in the country’s largest port. Reuters has the story: One of the first decisions announced by the new government was stopping the planned sale of a 67% stake in the Piraeus Port Authority, agreed under its international bailout deal for which China’s Cosco Group and four other suitors had been shortlisted. Syriza are also reversing the lay-off of public sector workers and raising the minimum wage. Guardian Live Blog again... The new Greek government has also pledged to reverse the unpopular ‘mobility scheme’ which was used to lay off thousands of public sector workers, rolling back another key bailout measure. Syriza is also planning to help poorer Greeks by raising the minimum wage But it is not all anti EU stuff. They are making tentative steps in the long overdue reforms to the Greek taxations systems and corruption. http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_27/01/2015_546584 The new government is planning to abolish the single property tax (ENFIA) and replace it with the so-called FAP tax and an across-the-board 30 percent reduction of objective values – used for tax purposes – although the tax exemption limit has not yet been determined. From statements made by the ruling party it appears that main residences will be exempt from the new tax, except in the case of very expensive homes. It seems that the new tax will mainly concern secondary and holiday homes, with SYRIZA officials saying the annual collection target will be in the range of 1.2-1.5 billion euros, which is 1.1-1.45 billion euros less than the ENFIA target. Taxing secondary and holiday homes will hit the wealthier - which will please the majority of Syriza voters. It's also a difficult tax to evade. It's a clear strategy - take energetic steps to put the Greek house in order to show that debt will eventually be repaid, while making it a high risk gamble to cut off Greek funding. Sure, Greece would be fcuked, but what would the political and financial damage be to the rest of the eurozone? In one hand they have a stick to beat the EU with in the other they are holding out a carrot saying give us some debt relief and we can work with you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) 3 days on.....still no significant sign of anything changing, They've stopped the privatisations and sale of port interests (otherwise known as asset-stripping, looting etc). That's a concrete step. Edited January 28, 2015 by Errol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Tspiras has done quite a bit to 'make his points'. The ball is with the EU, IMF and Mrs Merkel currently.. These from Guardian live blog over the last few days.. cut out a chunk of bureaucracy. Going after Tax Avoiders.. Not wasting any time they have told Brussels to get stuffed over Russian Sanctions.. English translation: if we don't get our bail out or negotiation - we start blocking decisions. They've just stopped two privatisations. Guardian live blog Syriza are also reversing the lay-off of public sector workers and raising the minimum wage. Guardian Live Blog again... But it is not all anti EU stuff. They are making tentative steps in the long overdue reforms to the Greek taxations systems and corruption. http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_27/01/2015_546584 Taxing secondary and holiday homes will hit the wealthier - which will please the majority of Syriza voters. It's also a difficult tax to evade. It's a clear strategy - take energetic steps to put the Greek house in order to show that debt will eventually be repaid, while making it a high risk gamble to cut off Greek funding. Sure, Greece would be fcuked, but what would the political and financial damage be to the rest of the eurozone? In one hand they have a stick to beat the EU with in the other they are holding out a carrot saying give us some debt relief and we can work with you.... Yes, sounds like very assertive steps, the EU can either play along or kick them out now,and how would they ever kick them out anyway? More countries to follow Greek example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Nick Malkoutzis @NickMalkoutzis 26m26 minutes ago "One of 1st moves will be to cut costs at Finance Min by having less advisors & rehiring sacked cleaners," says @yanisvaroufakis #Greece Please can Alexis Tsipras & Yanis Varoufakis come to UK and replace Cameron/Osborne! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The British electorate appear to be too stupid to vote in anyone other than Labour/Conservative, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) The British electorate appear to be too stupid to vote in anyone other than Labour/Conservative, sadly. There is hope in the recent UKIP by-election results. At any rate far more so than in the past. Even for those who aren't UKIP supporters. The vote in Greece also demonstrates that the ancient and medieval political systems aren't necessarily sacrosanct. Edited January 28, 2015 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Deeply symbolic Graeme Wearden @graemewearden 6m6 minutes ago Photo of the day: Sacked Greek cleaners learn that they'll be rehired http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jan/28/greek-government-privatisation-programme-alexis-tsiptas-live … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'd rather give the money to those cleaners than to the bankers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dances with sheeple Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'd rather give the money to those cleaners than to the bankers. Simple, hire a cleaner, stop borrowing money? (I suppose not much we can do about the tax portion of the bailouts, but there are ways to minimise tax and general consumption) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The British electorate appear to be too stupid to vote in anyone other than Labour/Conservative, sadly. Things are changing albeit slowly.... Fringe parties like the Greens and UKIP are gathering support taking it away from the big two. The challenges now are the first parts the post system. With fractured support it is almost certain (this coming election) and potentially going forward that no party will gather enough seats to command overall control. Colation Governments as the last 5 years have demonstrated are not necessarily a good thing. Sometime it needs a strong government with a radical reforming programme to make the key changes in this Country. Think Atlee NHS and Thatcher with her modernization of UK industry in the last 70 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R K Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/debt-restructuring-proposed-principle.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+MainlyMacro+%28mainly+macro%29 In reality debt restructuring is a bargaining game, but I want to suggest a general principle that any agreement should hold to. That principle is that there should be no significant increase in unemployment above its natural rate (let’s call this excess unemployment) as a direct result of having to pay interest on any government debt. Unemployment above the natural rate when there is no excess core inflation is a waste of resources as well as being damaging to most of those unemployed, so any deal that creates such unemployment, or allows it to persist, should be regarded as the result of creditors acting against the social good. Indeed you could easily argue that it involves creditors acting against their own self-interest, because the more of an economy’s resources you waste, the less is available to pay its debts. This is why the Troika should feel guilty, because by not allowing Greece to default on all its debt back in 2010 it helped create a situation where over half young people in Greece are unemployed. Some excess unemployment was inevitable in Greece after 2010 because the country had become very uncompetitive, and the impact of this on demand had been offset by large primary budget deficits. (This problem was made worse by pre-recession cost-cutting in Germany.) However, as I have argued in the past in the context of Latvia, the efficient way to restore competitiveness is to have small but persistent excess unemployment: a ‘short sharp shock’ is much more costly. The Troika imposed much too much austerity on Greece in a futile effort to avoid full and early default. The process transferred the ownership of the remaining Greek government debt from the private sector to the public sector - other Eurozone governments and the IMF. The transfer to other European governments was wrong in two respects. First, it was another example of governments bailing out their own banks and other financial institutions with no costs to those institutions. Second, it made any subsequent restructuring of Greek debt much more difficult politically. If there had been full and immediate default there would have still been need for additional lending to Greece to give them time to adjust their public finances and avoid a large increase in unemployment, but that is what the IMF is for. If the Troika had not been involved, the IMF may well have gone for early and complete default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 A battle of wills: 9 reasons Greece's experiment with the radical left is doomed to failure The new Greek government appears to be on a collision course with Angela Merkel and the conservatively-inclined German taxpayer. All the signs are that the Greeks will not win… EU officials fly in as Greeks start cancelling austerity policies Greek stocks fall 22% as Athens market tumbles for third day Greek PM Alexis Tsipras unveils members of his new cabinet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Greek PM Tsipras freezes privatisations, markets tumble8:03pm GMT ATHENS - Leftwing Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras threw down an open challenge to international creditors on Wednesday by halting privatisation plans agreed under the country's bailout deal, prompting a third day of heavy losses on financial markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Greece Will Not Default - Pm Tsipras Qe And Greek' Austerity' Edited January 28, 2015 by interestrateripoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 A battle of wills: 9 reasons Greece's experiment with the radical left is doomed to failure The new Greek government appears to be on a collision course with Angela Merkel and the conservatively-inclined German taxpayer. All the signs are that the Greeks will not win… EU officials fly in as Greeks start cancelling austerity policies Greek stocks fall 22% as Athens market tumbles for third day Greek PM Alexis Tsipras unveils members of his new cabinet ..I always thought the whole point of this team being elected was departure from Europe ...how come there is still all this powwow going on...?.....not much change here....or have I missed it..?..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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