ken_ichikawa Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 No you don't . You just need a central station based in India with a bunch of screens that have views from the drivers' cabins. After all, what can a driver do anyway if there's a tree on the track? I bet it's not in his union agreemnet to shift the f@cker. I'm right, aren't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Well, I suppose they could get a load of Poles and Lithuanians in to do it for a quarter of the cost as they did in the road transport industry, but just as in the road transport industry, and as anyone who has driven on a motorway in the last five years will have noticed, eastern European drivers tend to crash all the time. But crashing gets expensive after a while? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtomsilver Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 But crashing gets expensive after a while? not if the tax payer picks up the tab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Well, I suppose they could get a load of Poles and Lithuanians in to do it for a quarter of the cost as they did in the road transport industry, but just as in the road transport industry, and as anyone who has driven on a motorway in the last five years will have noticed, eastern European drivers tend to crash all the time. according to trovit (I think) job salary survey - the average salary of a uk train driver is down from £35k to £30k between 2009 and 2010; it seems likely that falling payscales (just as the non-subsidised sectors experienced under Labour) are hitting train driving, this will bite with inflation over the next 5 years; Inoticed othjer stats (and anecdotals) about teachers - effect9ively incomers are on MUCH lower salaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunnel Vision Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 and they rarely work 39 hrs a week half the time they are back up in case of sickness once the designated driver arrives the back up driver toddles off home sometimes after a whole 30 minutes That was the case on British Rail, a cushey number, but the pay was low. A bit like working for the council I suppose. Post privatisation they doubled the pay but doubled the work load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_ichikawa Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 The technology does need some work but like you i think it will get there one day. There will always be need of a human on board, probably a guard; I doubt it. HK has a human free MTR line to Disney world, seems to work, you just have to alter the designs of things. To stop people jumping into the paths of trains off platforms, platform screens were fitted EVERYWHERE for instance. (i) someone gets their coat trapped in the door and gets dragged down the platform as the train leaves Again alter the design so that there are detectors for this kind of thing. (ii) scroats start throwing bits of the train out of the windows (seat covers, fire extinguishers) In the future all public places will be equipped with low maintenance pulse laser autoguns (lasers don't need ammo and have few moving parts). So when scroats throw things autoguns activate and vapourise the scrotes...... now I think about it chavs ALREADY do this and the staff do nothing to prevent it. Injin doesn't have an answer to autoguns either as the future of oppression is the autogun, not the weak soldier who risks turning on his master. (iii) disabled person pulls the alarm cord in the disabled toilet Simple redesign, remove the toilets completely. (iv) a passing train has a motor fire on one of the bogies Again redesign so things are less likely to catch fire. (v) plastic agricultural sheeting has wrapped it self around the overhead line equipment Not sure about this. (vi) someone opens the doors using the emergency door handle so as to force the train to stop at a station it's not scheduled to stop at Easy simply dont have any emergency stop devices. (vii) level crossing gates left open by mistake by a road user on a crossing manually controlled Remove gates There are far more human unexpected inputs into the situation than most people realise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 That was the case on British Rail, a cushey number, but the pay was low. A bit like working for the council I suppose. I would correct that and suggest that was the case with British Rail early-1980s until privatisation; during the 1970s my guess is they were well paid along with other unionised nationalised manual jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunnel Vision Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I would correct that and suggest that was the case with British Rail early-1980s until privatisation; during the 1970s my guess is they were well paid along with other unionised nationalised manual jobs I don't know about the 1970s, but late 80s to early 90s the pay was not that good, but it also wasn't terrible. On British Rail a driver could spend time going into work playing cards for a few hours and going home without ever turning a wheel. Post privatisation, that all changed (not over night but gradually). Train drivers get paid the money they do because of the responsibilitiy involved. There is a rule book that has to be strictly adhered to. If the driver doesn't operate his/her train as per the rule book and someone gets killed/injured it is the driver's responsibility and he will be liable. At best he will lose his job at worst he will go to prison. The driver is paid fairly well because he carrys the can. Add to that starting work at 4am one week and finishing at 2 am the next week, working weekends and missing out on your kid's birthday. I don't think they are over paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) I don't know about the 1970s, but late 80s to early 90s the pay was not that good, but it also wasn't terrible. On British Rail a driver could spend time going into work playing cards for a few hours and going home without ever turning a wheel. Post privatisation, that all changed (not over night but gradually). Train drivers get paid the money they do because of the responsibilitiy involved. There is a rule book that has to be strictly adhered to. If the driver doesn't operate his/her train as per the rule book and someone gets killed/injured it is the driver's responsibility and he will be liable. At best he will lose his job at worst he will go to prison. The driver is paid fairly well because he carrys the can. Add to that starting work at 4am one week and finishing at 2 am the next week, working weekends and missing out on your kid's birthday. I don't think they are over paid. they get paid much more than other european countries AFAIK however, maybe owing to the aggressively commercial nature of the UK rail system, they may simply do more and hold more responsibility for longer hours than european train drivers (the latter presumably having similar conditions that you cite for BR late 1980s) what would your take be on that? Edited February 28, 2011 by Si1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunnel Vision Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 they get paid much more than other european countries AFAIK however, maybe owing to the aggressively commercial nature of the UK rail system, they may simply do more and hold more responsibility for longer hours than european train drivers (the latter presumably having similar conditions that you cite for BR late 1980s) what would your take be on that? I wouldn't like to comment on European train drivers as I simply don't know what they are paid, however, I would imagine their conditions are better than UK drivers. UK train companies are purely out to make profit whilst staying within the remit of the conditions of their franchises. If the rail companies could get away with paying their staff less for more work across the board they would do it at the drop of a hat. Capitalism. But I guess most companies would do the same. Although, on the face of it, rejecting a £39k 35hr week may seem greedy, I would bet money that the drivers in Wales are losing alot of conditions for that deal. That is what you dont read about, only the headline grabbing greedy drivers lol. Also If you lowered the wage of a train driver to say 25-30k, people just wouldn't do it. It's to much of an anti social lonely job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't like to comment on European train drivers as I simply don't know what they are paid, however, I would imagine their conditions are better than UK drivers. UK train companies are purely out to make profit whilst staying within the remit of the conditions of their franchises. If the rail companies could get away with paying their staff less for more work across the board they would do it at the drop of a hat. Capitalism. But I guess most companies would do the same. not that simple in private industry - a project manager that can justify a £60,000 salary (due to higher competence) can save £100,000s compared to one on 2/3 of that salary, for example, sometimes extra money is money well spent If, say, european train drivers get £25,000 p.a. but a UK driver on £35,000 p.a. covers the role and responsibilities of one and a half european train drivers (which would add to £37,500 plus additional costs of employment), then that is simply better value than the european model it is not always the case the private companies cut pay to the bone - sometimes it is cheaper to pay more Edited February 28, 2011 by Si1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eagle Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 It's not that simple though, is it? If you live in a town where lots of people drive or take the train to commute to a highly paid job in another town, that will push up rents. In the end you may be forced to commute too if it is the only way you can afford to pay for shelter. There are lots of examples of this kind of effect. All of your neighbours buy cars, food shopping moves to out-of-town supermarkets, you end up having to buy a car too whether you wanted to or not. As people move to cars, bus fares become more expensive due to shrinking economies of scale. Of course, you can always choose, if you can afford it. That's a pretty big if though. It sounds to me like you would have enjoyed living in communist eastern Europe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunnel Vision Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 it is not always the case the private companies cut pay to the bone - sometimes it is cheaper to pay more I could not agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Would anyone with the same ability as you be allowed to do your job for less money? Theoretically possible as is buying something from Tesco and insist on paying extra for it. It might happen but people would think you were a bit weird. EDIT: For the first year new drivers were paid less for doing the same job for the same responsibilities. This ended only very recently. This practice exists in the Public Sector with their increments. Edited February 28, 2011 by Driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eagle Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Good on them, really. nothing wrong with striking, nothing wrong with getting the best deal available. I can't see anyone getting atacked here so I fail to see any issue. I perfectly agree. I always find it funny how in this country everybody picks on their similars while the upper classes are laughing all the way to the banks. If the train drivers manage a good raise that will add to the pressure to raise interest rates, since wage inflation is the only kind of inflation the BoE really fears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gardener Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I perfectly agree. I always find it funny how in this country everybody picks on their similars while the upper classes are laughing all the way to the banks. If the train drivers manage a good raise that will add to the pressure to raise interest rates, since wage inflation is the only kind of inflation the BoE really fears. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 BTW I heard that some US airline pilots are paid as little as $13,000 a year and have to moonlight to make ends meet. You can't expect to be taken seriously if you post something as daft as that without a link to the source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Good on them, really. nothing wrong with striking, nothing wrong with getting the best deal available. I can't see anyone getting atacked here so I fail to see any issue. I agree. 90% of the guys on here see nothing wrong with striking a personal deal to secure a large wage for themselves yet continually attack the wages of guys who won't be earning what they were getting over 10 years ago. I still remember the threads that ran here about forum member's jobs and wages. Pot, kettle and black. Edited March 1, 2011 by Nickolarge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickolarge Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 so maybe you've come at it from the wrong end? No, he hasn't. People who, in the past, already had too much money to spend on a house (from whatever source) were responsible for rising prices. One way to re-balance that is to give the rest of us access to that kind of money. Not saying it's the best way or that it's remotely likely to happen but it definitely is one way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekking Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Maybe it's time the passengers went on strike!!! Thieving ****s +1 Maybe they should vote with their feet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 +1 Maybe they should vote with their feet? They do. They vote to use the service. Price inelasticity is currently being discovered all over the place; petrol, loans, train fares, electricity. None of these things will fall in price again until alternatives are developed. The free market would be the solution and it's the state that blocks it, but so many people think the answer is more legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool's Gold Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 yes, yes, yes - you are dead right. WTF do these drivers think they are up to? I believe the only thing keeping them in a job is the lousey method of awarding contracts to the operators. Same is true of the train operators inability to avaoid collisions etc. Assuming you're a car driver, have you ever had a bump no matter how small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 not that simple in private industry - a project manager that can justify a £60,000 salary (due to higher competence) can save £100,000s compared to one on 2/3 of that salary, for example, sometimes extra money is money well spent If, say, european train drivers get £25,000 p.a. but a UK driver on £35,000 p.a. covers the role and responsibilities of one and a half european train drivers (which would add to £37,500 plus additional costs of employment), then that is simply better value than the european model it is not always the case the private companies cut pay to the bone - sometimes it is cheaper to pay more but, here, we are not talking about one or two superstar drivers. we are talking about a large group of people who have passed a course of training. Knowing there will be a cross section, there will be good and bad drivers, and as for the responsibility issue, no driver, being human, is free from mistakes. How many people have in a moment of thoughtlessness, ignored a red light. The signalling designers know this, hence a drive is unlikely to simply come accross a red signal....he would have received cautions before hand and notice of an impending red.....the responsibility is designed out of the system as much as possible to account for human error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 They do. They vote to use the service. Price inelasticity is currently being discovered all over the place; petrol, loans, train fares, electricity. None of these things will fall in price again until alternatives are developed. The free market would be the solution and it's the state that blocks it, but so many people think the answer is more legislation. I think it all comes back to housing - one of the reasons we over-use transport in this country is because we are forced to commute by social conditioning to own a house (which also comes down to bad legislation) if we all rented and simply moved to near work whenever we changed jobs then we'd save a lot of transport and not bid up the price so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahBell Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) A must watch song. Edited March 1, 2011 by SarahBell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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