LiveinHope Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) I could not believe what I was hearing at 7.20 this morning on the R4 Today programme Piece begins at 1:19:36, astonishing revelation begins around 1:20:30 US economics viewpoint from UCLA with recommendations for the UK People feel so much more wealthy when they are head and shoulders in debt Spending depends upon the feeling of wealth not actual income. Of course. That must be where I have been going wrong. Edited February 4, 2011 by LiveinHope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danlee74 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I could not believe what I was hearing at 7.20 this morning on the R4 Today programme Piece begins at 1:19:36, astonishing revelation begins around 1:20:30 US economics viewpoint from UCLA with recommendations for the UK People feel so much more wealthy when they are head and shoulders in debt Spending depends upon the feeling of wealth not actual income. Of course. That must be where I have been going wrong. Yes, I was listening to that too. What a load of old sh!t!!! I wanted to scream at the radio but the neighbours would not have been happy so early in the morning so I just shook my head and continued tying my tie. I cannot believe that people like this get airtime whereas I was binned a while ago (http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=153634&st=30) ... it's no wonder the wider public do not seem to consider the implications of taking on debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckmojo Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Yes, I was listening to that too. What a load of old sh!t!!! I wanted to scream at the radio but the neighbours would not have been happy so early in the morning so I just shook my head and continued tying my tie. I cannot believe that people like this get airtime whereas I was binned a while ago (http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=153634&st=30) ... it's no wonder the wider public do not seem to consider the implications of taking on debt. I heard that idiot say that. What a monumental pile of shite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlibble Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I could not believe what I was hearing at 7.20 this morning on the R4 Today programme Piece begins at 1:19:36, astonishing revelation begins around 1:20:30 US economics viewpoint from UCLA with recommendations for the UK People feel so much more wealthy when they are head and shoulders in debt Spending depends upon the feeling of wealth not actual income. Of course. That must be where I have been going wrong. There is no Ponzi Scheme, move along, nothing to see here, nobody said anything about a Ponzi Scheme Just shows how piss poor economies have become when without an house shaped ATM they are toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyHead Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 That is totally astounding, and really scary that these views went unquestioned. We are doomed. These people will never wake up. They'll keep on this path until they've destroyed everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveinHope Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) That is totally astounding, and really scary that these views went unquestioned. We are doomed. These people will never wake up. They'll keep on this path until they've destroyed everything. I was stunned. Let's just pretend were wealthy. We don't need to actually have the money to buy tat. Edited February 4, 2011 by LiveinHope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilly Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think more and more rational people (of which there are seemingly however fewer and fewer) are coming to feel that they are living in some kind of Orwellian dystopia... I know I do. We have the perpetual war (to keep peace...) , we have the bizarre anti-logical statements such as 'debt is wealth'. We have the surveillance. We have the mind-bending propaganda (in the form of marketing) piped to us via screens.All very 1984. I can here Blair spinning in his grave (Eric Arthur that is). There appears some collective madness. Wish I was a part of it. Must be bliss. Still - put the kettle up and feet up for the rugger! Come on, Carruthers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbone Glover Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) I think more and more rational people (of which there are seemingly however fewer and fewer) are coming to feel that they are living in some kind of Orwellian dystopia... I know I do. Me too. I'd love to be able to find some way of escaping from it, but don't believe it can be much better anywhere else. Edited February 4, 2011 by Fishbone Glover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveinHope Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Me too. I'd love to be able to find some way of escaping from it, but don't believe it can be much better anywhere else. I never got involved in it, but actually it appears at the moment that you are better in the shoal, although the mother of all whales could come along and swallow the lot, in which case that little fish swimming on its own, out on the edge, might just escape that is the vain hope that I am clinging onto at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I never got involved in it, but actually it appears at the moment that you are better in the shoal, although the mother of all whales could come along and swallow the lot, in which case that little fish swimming on its own, out on the edge, might just escape that is the vain hope that I am clinging onto at least. Let them get on with it. Let them pump up the ponzi. I'm not sure the country could afford another bank bust. Indeed I don't think it can afford the last one! We have to admit defeat to some extent. For houses to crash seriously things would have to be so bad, that quite frankly buying a house would be the last thing on your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeTrader Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 He’s not alone. This is from the Bank of England’s Quantitative Easing Explained Pamphlet. I suggest you download it so you can show it to your grandchildren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@contradevian Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 He's not alone. This is from the Bank of England's Quantitative Easing Explained Pamphlet. I suggest you download it so you can show it to your grandchildren. I there you have it. Perpetually high asset prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protect Rural England Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 I remember paying off our mortgage in 2000. The feeling of power was immense. No SOB could take our house away. All we had to do was pay the Council Tax (Wandsworth and from memory about £500 pa), pay the water, power, phone. The world could collapse but we would be ok. Then we moved. Took on a new place. Back to square one. Doesn't matter if you owe the bank £5000 or £500,000. What an error. Still paying off the b'ing mortgage. Not a lot by some standards but the house isn't mine. I live in fear of losing my job, age with time left to pay. If I could give any advice to anyone wanting to listen, it would be pay off your debt before anything else. Then noone can touch you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Nice one, 'protect.... My number one priority will be paying off a mortgage when I get one - and hopefully a small one! I feel powerful every time I pay a little of my student loan, never mind owning a house outright! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveinHope Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) He’s not alone. This is from the Bank of England’s Quantitative Easing Explained Pamphlet. I suggest you download it so you can show it to your grandchildren. While I knew that was the theory, the fact that someone believes it (and that 'someone' runs the economy, and controls people's lives) sufficiently to publish it as a credence, we're doomed. I never realised it was a strategy. Just thought it a knee jerk reaction to a crisis...how naive I have rented all my life, at levels well below servicing a mortgage for the same property, and consequently the money that would have serviced interest payments is now in savings, and fortunately, they now service the rent and basic expenses. Just waiting to be stuffed by QE and inflation. Still, I'll keep my own path. Edited February 5, 2011 by LiveinHope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveinHope Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) Let them get on with it. Let them pump up the ponzi. I'm not sure the country could afford another bank bust. Indeed I don't think it can afford the last one! We have to admit defeat to some extent. For houses to crash seriously things would have to be so bad, that quite frankly buying a house would be the last thing on your mind. I am fairly close to the public sector as a contractor. Things are very bad in the departments and local government. At the moment the departments are 'surviving' by cutting back dramatically, and while there are still many daft schemes being funded it is simply beacuse the cut has not reached them yet..but it will and quickly so. Salaries (manager and above salaries), which should be the first to cut, will, of course, be the last to reduce. A very expensive person will turn the lights out. Of course, many jobs or potholes could be saved if greed did not prevail, Ho Hum eh. However, as I said everything at the moment is teetering on, but only just as I can feel the tsunami coming (the whale's mouth). As a lot of the private sector income derives from public sector employes who have no sense of the value of money, and so they just spent, spent, spent, the state of the national economy will soon be evident to everyone. <* )))))))< Edited February 5, 2011 by LiveinHope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) This isn't even a matter of perception making it true or indebtedness making us wealthy, rather it just plain isn't true. HPI is a pure wealth transfer (actually theft) from one group to another. What the beneficiary group gains in spending power is lost by the other, so there is no net lift whatsoever. What is true is that house prices tend rise in response to econmomic growth. Politicians have been conflating cause and effect in this arena for decades, to justify HPI. Edited February 5, 2011 by Stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveinHope Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 This isn't even a matter of perception making it true or indebtedness making us wealthy, rather it just plain isn't true. HPI is a pure wealth transfer (actually theft) from one group to another. What the beneficiary group gains in spending power is lost by the other, so there is no net lift whatsoever. There can't be any lift, nothing has been created except an illusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) There can't be any lift, nothing has been created except an illusion Nothing has been created but an increased obligation or cost. This increased obligation isn't an illusion though. Counting HPI in itself as an increase in wealth is a bit like counting increased taxes as an increase in wealth Edited to add - i'm not disagreeing with you; absolutely nothing is added Edited February 5, 2011 by Stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoto Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) He’s not alone. This is from the Bank of England’s Quantitative Easing Explained Pamphlet. I suggest you download it so you can show it to your grandchildren. In three years of reading this site that's one of the most shocking things I've ever seen! What are they smoking at the bank of England if they think this is the basis of an economy?! Printing money with the explicit aim of inflating asset prices? To make it worse, on the right of the chart, they show the all of this as supporting a 2% inflation goal, implying that it is keeping us as away from a deflationary scenario. Do they not know we've been OVER the inflation target for 2 years!!! Crazy, bizarre shit. Edited February 5, 2011 by Kyoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 In three years of reading this site that's one of the most shocking things I've ever seen! What are they smoking at the bank of England if they think this is the basis of an economy?! Printing money with the explicit aim of inflating asset prices? 1) They think that money supply is likely connected to real estate asset price 2) there is no official or solid public recognition that real estate asset inflation is just a transfer from one group to another rather than an increase in wealth. So it looks to them like you are getting an increase in wealth by fiddling with money. Number 2 is political dynamite and can't be tackled without bringing the whole house of cards down and so it isn't tackled. So our government carries on using a special set of blindspots and false, unchallenged assumptions to make policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyoto Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) 1) They think that money supply is likely connected to real estate asset price 2) there is no official or solid public recognition that real estate asset inflation is just a transfer from one group to another rather than an increase in wealth. So it looks to them like you are getting an increase in wealth by fiddling with money. Number 2 is political dynamite and can't be tackled without bringing the whole house of cards down and so it isn't tackled. So our government carries on using a special set of blindspots and false, unchallenged assumptions to make policy. Agreed. If they wanted to create this kind of imaginary wealth they would get the same outcome by just adding a zero onto all of our bank notes! At least that would be fair. But by targetting asset inflation, they literally route money directly to the people who already own the assets (usually property). The diagram documents a daylight robbery! Edited February 5, 2011 by Kyoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50sQuiff Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) In three years of reading this site that's one of the most shocking things I've ever seen! What are they smoking at the bank of England if they think this is the basis of an economy?! Printing money with the explicit aim of inflating asset prices? To make it worse, on the right of the chart, they show the all of this as supporting a 2% inflation goal, implying that it is keeping us as away from a deflationary scenario. Do they not know we've been OVER the inflation target for 2 years!!! Crazy, bizarre shit. I'm currently reading Fiat Money Inflation in France after seeing Dominic Frisby's recommendation. What makes this book so much more terrifying than When Money Dies (Adam Ferguson's account of the Weimer hyperinflation) is that everything is so calm, logical and consensus-driven. There are no war-time reparations or extremist agitators. Every stakeholder, no matter what their place in society, cheer-leads the money creation and credit expansion. The only people who speak out against it are dismissed as cranks or luddites. Then I see that BoE flow chart... 1) They think that money supply is likely connected to real estate asset price You're bang on. We're using Assignats here. Edited February 5, 2011 by 50sQuiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spaniard Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Anyone for Money Reform? http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/ Given the political will and the necessary shift of power, there is a sensible and viable alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 While I knew that was the theory, the fact that someone believes it (and that 'someone' runs the economy, and controls people's lives) sufficiently to publish it as a credence, we're doomed. I never realised it was a strategy. Just thought it a knee jerk reaction to a crisis...how naive I have rented all my life, at levels well below servicing a mortgage for the same property, and consequently the money that would have serviced interest payments is now in savings, and fortunately, they now service the rent and basic expenses. Just waiting to be stuffed by QE and inflation. Still, I'll keep my own path. sadly, the part in that theory...the reduced cost of borrowing, hasnt materialised. neither have jobs increased. nor have housing assets risen. but commodities, like food and energy, are rising. So is the stock market. And public debt. Bubble pie anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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