Every 2 Out Of 3 New Jobs Go To Emigrants

[OnlyMe]

So why are many of them still here ? Why are many still coming here ? When our economy is ******ed, our £ is far weaker than it used to be - and Poland is expanding and growing by the year ?

Becuase there is still cost of living/wage arbitrage to be had. Earn bigger sums in a more expensive country and then take those funds back to buy yourself a lifestle that you couldn't get on local wages.

it is not rocket science.

[Guest eight]

No, they don't. Besides which, the issue at hand is the ratio of domestic / foreign workers getting jobs. There are masses of unemployed recent British graduates out there. I have no idea why there have been so few domestic graduates apply. Obviously we're been doing something wrong, but the foreign graduates managed to find out about the role quickly enough...

Because the hype affects everybody? Because they think there's no point in applying because if there's also a Polish applicant (and let's face it, there will be) then they will automatically get the job as it has become ingrained in our psyche that Poles are "better"?

It's like the winning habit in sport - it isn't just the winner that gets it. All his competitors get in the habit of him winning too.

eight

[ccc]

Becuase there is still cost of living/wage arbitrage to be had. Earn bigger sums in a more expensive country and then take those funds back to buy yourself a lifestle that you couldn't get on local wages.

it is not rocket science.

I know this. I was responding to the point made that many of these people have dismal existances in this country yet still stay here.

Even if you are getting a nice bit of wage arbitrage - if you life is 'dismal' in a foreign country most would go home. Poland is not exactly a bad place to stay. We are not talking Mogadishu here.

Because the hype affects everybody? Because they think there's no point in applying because if there's also a Polish applicant (and let's face it, there will be) then they will automatically get the job as it has become ingrained in our psyche that Poles are "better"?

It's like the winning habit in sport - it isn't just the winner that gets it. All his competitors get in the habit of him winning too.

eight

Well that is a lame attitude to have IMO - and no wonder few of these people get work. They need to geta grip of themselves and get out of the habit.

[babesagainstmachines]

Well that is a lame attitude to have IMO - and no wonder few of these people get work. They need to geta grip of themselves and get out of the habit.

Well you seem quite keen on telling them that the Poles are better, over and over again. On multiple threads, over dozens of pages. So how exactly can they get a grip, when they have to compete with 2.5 million indigenous, plus an unlimited supply of migrants who are better than them?

[miko]

Well you seem quite keen on telling them that the Poles are better, over and over again. On multiple threads, over dozens of pages. So how exactly can they get a grip, when they have to compete with 2.5 million indigenous, plus an unlimited supply of migrants who are better than them?

+1

[Harry Monk]

So why are many of them still here ? Why are many still coming here ? When our economy is ******ed, our £ is far weaker than it used to be - and Poland is expanding and growing by the year ?

Firstly, some are still here because wages are still about twice the level that the are in Poland, and secondly, the trend is not for Poles to arrive any more.

The total number of Eastern Europeans leaving the UK more than doubled from 25,000 to 69,000 between 2007 and 2008.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1231175/Record-number-people-leave-Britain-Poles-going-home-drives-emigration-new-high.html#ixzz1C8Zy6VPT

[ccc]

Well you seem quite keen on telling them that the Poles are better, over and over again. On multiple threads, over dozens of pages. So how exactly can they get a grip, when they have to compete with 2.5 million indigenous, plus an unlimited supply of migrants who are better than them?

Excellent. Another person who just makes up quotes as they go along and fails to listen to what I am actually saying.

I am keen on telling people that Poles are SOMETIMES better than locals.

Is that so difficult to understand ? I have state it numerous times.

Are British people so lame that someone telling them another person is better than them - will put them off putting in some effort and going for a job ?!

FFS get a grip British people. Grow some balls and go out there and prove yourselves. This self pity is nauseating sometimes.

Firstly, some are still here because wages are still about twice the level that the are in Poland, and secondly, the trend is not for Poles to arrive any more.

So they are working out the benefits of working here are not as good as they used to be - so many are returning home. Makes sense.

So we can expect an end to locals whinging about Poles taking all their jobs can we....

[babesagainstmachines]

Excellent. Another person who just makes up quotes as they go along and fails to listen to what I am actually saying.

I am keen on telling people that Poles are SOMETIMES better than locals.

The problem is that you can't extrapolate you micro position into a macro one. If migrants were always better, then every Brit would be unemployed living on benefits provided by a migrant workforce, which is clearly not the case. Because SOMETIMES the migrants are better, we have 2.5 million unemployed and most of the new job creation has gone to migrants. You don't seem to want to even contemplate that the current position is exactly the results of migrants SOMETIMES being better, but when the supply of SOMETIMES better people is effectively unlimited, there is nothing much that you can do on a micro level other than claim your benefits and keep trying, whilst having a whinge about the people who have taken the jobs.

Edited January 26, 2011 by BabesAgainstTheMachine

[Goat]

I've given up 'debating' ccc, his circular and contradictory arguments are like a Zen koan, eventually they shut your mind down. Besides, he'll probably end up jail soon for slapping the wrong girl's *rse.

Always seems pretty reasonable to me; I think you just don't like what he's saying.

[ccc]

The problem is that you can't extrapolate you micro position into a macro one. If migrants were always better, then every Brit would be unemployed living on benefits provided by a migrant workforce, which is clearly not the case. Because SOMETIMES the migrants are better, we have 2.5 million unemployed and most of the new job creation has gone to migrants. You don't seem to want to even contemplate that the current position is exactly the results of migrants SOMETIMES being better, but when the supply of SOMETIMES better people is effectively unlimited, there is nothing much that you can do on a macro level other than claim your benefits and keep trying, whilst having a whinge about the people who have taken the jobs.

So because sometimes the migrants are better this leaves some British people unemployed ? And ?

This is what we have. You are not going to change it. Us Brits can head over anywhere else in Europe just like anyone else can head over here. It does not look likely to change soon. Although who knows.

So until it does - British people need to get a grip and stop whinging about how hard their lot is. It is pathetic. Maybe they should see how people live in Africa and the likes - a sense of proportion may then take hold.

Or what is the other option ? Just stop immigration altogether ?

Well I have 2 problems with that plan.

(1) Many of hte unemplyed today in the UK are not interested in work full stop. 'Sending home' all the Poles is not going to change that one bit.

(2) Personally I would rather be served at KFC by a nice hard working polite Pole - than some skanky looking chav - any day. Not that I am saying all Brits are like that. Many Brits that serve me in places like that seem like decent sorts.

And finally there is another reason. If we start getting all uber defensive when it comes to migration and shutting up shop ? These other countries will just start doing the same. And for many people this would not be a good thing.

There are ups and downs to all this. Some of us can see btoh sides. Unlimited immigration from all sorts ? No - I don't think that is a good idea. However at the moment in the EU that is what we have. As they say in Shawshank Redemption - get busy living or get busy dying.

Go out there and really try and do something about immigration - or go out there and accept it is here to stay and work out how you can use it to your advantage. That is your two choices - unless I have missed something.

[babesagainstmachines]

So because sometimes the migrants are better this leaves some British people unemployed ? And ?

In case you haven't noticed, we have a political system based on nation states. It is every person's right to complain if their nation is being run for the benefit of supra-national interests rather than the voting constituency.

This is what we have. You are not going to change it. Us Brits can head over anywhere else in Europe just like anyone else can head over here. It does not look likely to change soon. Although who knows.

So until it does - British people need to get a grip and stop whinging about how hard their lot is. It is pathetic. Maybe they should see how people live in Africa and the likes - a sense of proportion may then take hold.

Or what is the other option ? Just stop immigration altogether ?

Well I have 2 problems with that plan.

(1) Many of hte unemplyed today in the UK are not interested in work full stop. 'Sending home' all the Poles is not going to change that one bit.

(2) Personally I would rather be served at KFC by a nice hard working polite Pole - than some skanky looking chav - any day. Not that I am saying all Brits are like that. Many Brits that serve me in places like that seem like decent sorts.

And finally there is another reason. If we start getting all uber defensive when it comes to migration and shutting up shop ? These other countries will just start doing the same. And for many people this would not be a good thing.

There are ups and downs to all this. Some of us can see btoh sides. Unlimited immigration from all sorts ? No - I don't think that is a good idea. However at the moment in the EU that is what we have. As they say in Shawshank Redemption - get busy living or get busy dying.

Go out there and really try and do something about immigration - or go out there and accept it is here to stay and work out how you can use it to your advantage. That is your two choices - unless I have missed something.

All you are really saying is that it is ok for you to moan, but not unemployed people. They should just shut up and deal with it.

Personally, I think it's high time everyone had full freedom of movement everywhere - it would make for a much better world. But that's not what you are talking about - you are telling people who have justified complaints that they should shut up and deal with it. This is not what our political system is founded on and is very anti-democratic.

[PopGun]

Why are you talkng about all those in these countries who are not working - rather than those that are ?

I take it the the Europe wide problem of youth unemployment has completely escaped you then?

It will be interesting when this country runs out of jobs for hard working immigrants as well as locals. The increasing number of homeless/destitute Eastern Europeans is indictive of this already happening. I doubt very much at all that they're "doing fine".

Even North Africa is starting to get into the act. The young have nowhere left to run, and they're angry with very good reason.

[Britney's Piers]

If there are jobs needing doing then resources should be used to train the population, to lower benefits, undo dependance and to incentivise work. Once everything that can be done had been done, only then should immigration be allowed to take up the extra demand for labour.

When a state fails to serve the needs of its own people it is no longer justified. It is just a racket. There is a hard rain coming for sure.

[Harry Monk]

If there are jobs needing doing then resources should be used to train the population, to lower benefits, undo dependance and to incentivise work

"Affordable housing" would be a good start.

[Pole]

I take it the the Europe wide problem of youth unemployment has completely escaped you then?

It will be interesting when this country runs out of jobs for hard working immigrants as well as locals. The increasing number of homeless/destitute Eastern Europeans is indictive of this already happening. I doubt very much at all that they're "doing fine".

Even North Africa is starting to get into the act. The young have nowhere left to run, and they're angry with very good reason.

It's all about expectations. Many young people have their expectations too high. Those who spent their years on finding out what they want in life - rarely have a problem.

You see, many young British people don't know what they really want in life. They're very poor at self-reflection. Many don't know what makes them happy in life.

All they would like to have is fun. It's not possible. And we all know that too much fun is not fun at all.

The world in full of opportunities. It really is. If you're young and healthy, you only need to choose your niche and become really good at it - the success and comfortable life will follow.

However, that requires spending little time on TV, computer games and pub - mission impossible for some youngsters.

[PopGun]

The youth of France, Spain, Germany, Ireland, UK... are idiots for marching in the streets. The fact that their age group have higher unemployment levels than seen in the Great Depression is irrelevant.

Nope it's because they're all lazy, apparently.

To be honest, I'm not sure what traits betray someone as 'lazy', but I doubt very much getting off your 4rse and being bothered to protest is one of them.

Eygpt is getting...interesting.

[ccc]

Always seems pretty reasonable to me; I think you just don't like what he's saying.

Cheers. I am really not trying to be controversial. Just saying things as i see them. On certain subjects lots of people seem to disagree !! Well the World would be dull if everyone thought the same wouldn't it. I am not gonna stop.

In case you haven't noticed, we have a political system based on nation states. It is every person's right to complain if their nation is being run for the benefit of supra-national interests rather than the voting constituency.

Yep. Agree with that. However there are those who are just complaining about it - full stop. And there are those who complain about it, but also understand their own life goes on - and do what they have to.

And let's not go over the top here. Even though the UK is in one ******ed up state - there are still plenty of possibilities & opportunities out there for all - if they look and try hard enough. Lets not be too depressed about things. It could be worse. And it is in many other places around the globe.

All you are really saying is that it is ok for you to moan, but not unemployed people. They should just shut up and deal with it.

Well maybe that is how I have come across. However I don't have a problem with unemployed moaning about it - as long as they are actually out there trying to do something about it at the same time. Many are not. And I think we all know that.

IMO unemployed people saying 'There are no jobs' is akin to those trying to sell their house and saying 'I just can't sell it'.

For both their statements are not actually true.

Personally, I think it's high time everyone had full freedom of movement everywhere - it would make for a much better world. But that's not what you are talking about - you are telling people who have justified complaints that they should shut up and deal with it. This is not what our political system is founded on and is very anti-democratic.

No I dont think they should shut up and deal with it. I just think they should have some balls and whilst whinging about - actually try and do something at the same time.

As an example givne earlier - why would people go for these jobs when they are always told the Poles are better so they wont get them ? That is an example of what I would class as a whiner. At least make the ******ing effort to get the jobs prior to whinging about it !!

I take it the the Europe wide problem of youth unemployment has completely escaped you then?

It will be interesting when this country runs out of jobs for hard working immigrants as well as locals. The increasing number of homeless/destitute Eastern Europeans is indictive of this already happening. I doubt very much at all that they're "doing fine".

Even North Africa is starting to get into the act. The young have nowhere left to run, and they're angry with very good reason.

Yep - no doubt it is tougher for youngsters these days than perhaps 10 years ago. Then again - do they really have it so bad ? They can still head off and work abroad and have a ball if they want. They can still get jobs in their local areas (Majority anyway). They still eat, and have a mobile phones and go out on the lash and drive cars.

They are not exactly living a nightmare are they ?

Because he believes this:

The youth of France, Spain, Germany, Ireland, UK... are idiots for marching in the streets. The fact that their age group have higher than unemployment levels than seen in the Great Depression is irrelevant.

It is not irrelevent. It is what is happening. And what people should also understand is that there are many youngsters who are also doing just fine these days.

It is not all bad. It is not great either. No argument from me on that one.

[Pole]

They want a job but they can't find a job. Not even burger flipping in McD's. Is it all about expectations?

Every case is different, every person is unique and their talents lie in different subject areas. It's hard to solve problems of all at once.

One question to finish this off...

Tell me, if most Brits blame the problem on the recent EU migrants - why do they keep voting for parties that fully support the EU (Con, Lab and LibDems)????

[PopGun]

It's all about expectations. Many young people have their expectations too high. Those who spent their years on finding out what they want in life - rarely have a problem.

You see, many young British people don't know what they really want in life. They're very poor at self-reflection. Many don't know what makes them happy in life.

All they would like to have is fun. It's not possible. And we all know that too much fun is not fun at all.

The world in full of opportunities. It really is. If you're young and healthy, you only need to choose your niche and become really good at it - the success and comfortable life will follow.

However, that requires spending little time on TV, computer games and pub - mission impossible for some youngsters.

Now we're back to the same question: Why do the young think and act like this? Where did all this expectation come from?!? As far as I can understand we don't get born with it.

Imo all I think most young people expect from life is an opportunity to make some kind of life for themselves. Is that really too much to ask for?

In a world were one person can earn in a month what most people can ever hope to earn in a lifetime, I don't think there is.

[ccc]

"Affordable housing" would be a good start.

+ 1 millon - or whatever they say !!

It's all about expectations. Many young people have their expectations too high. Those who spent their years on finding out what they want in life - rarely have a problem.

You see, many young British people don't know what they really want in life. They're very poor at self-reflection. Many don't know what makes them happy in life.

All they would like to have is fun. It's not possible. And we all know that too much fun is not fun at all.

The world in full of opportunities. It really is. If you're young and healthy, you only need to choose your niche and become really good at it - the success and comfortable life will follow.

However, that requires spending little time on TV, computer games and pub - mission impossible for some youngsters.

Yep. And this goes for all places on Earth. Even some starting off in a Mumbai slum end up doig amazingly well. The UK is not a bad place for a youngster wanting to get on and do something with their life. Perhaps it is a bit tougher than a few years back ? So be it. Times change. Still lots of opportunities about.

Nope it's because they're all lazy, apparently.

To be honest, I'm not sure what traits betray someone as 'lazy', but I doubt very much getting off your 4rse and being bothered to protest is one of them.

Eygpt is getting...interesting.

Ah - another one making up stuff I have not said !!

I think a lot of people are lazy. Not all - but a lot. And I really don't see how anyone could disagree with this ?!

If you want proof - go to any busy place that has a lift beside a set of stairs. Stand there for 10 minutes and count how many people get the lift instead of walking up 20 stairs.

Then come back and tell me this country is not full of a lot (BUT NOT ALL !!) lazy people.

And yes Egypt is looking interesting. Banned protests I see ? Thats gonna end well...

They want a job but they can't find a job. Not even burger flipping in McD's. Is it all about expectations?

Sorry - but that is ********. Perhaps there are a few corners of the UK where an 18 year old cannot get a job at McDonalds if they want. However please don't try and pretend it is the norm. Because that is just laughable.

[ccc]

Now we're back to the same question: Why do the young think and act like this? Where did all this expectation come from?!? As far as I can understand we don't get born with it.

Imo all I think most young people expect from life is an opportunity to make some kind of life for themselves. Is that really too much to ask for?

In a world were one person can earn in a month what most people can ever hope to earn in a lifetime, I don't think there is.

Nope. And anyone who thinks this does not exist in the UK is talking nonsense IMO.

My brother just started a business. Opened at pretty much the worst time apparently ever to do such a thing. Took about 2 years to get going. Masses of red tape and hassle. However after just 6 months it is going great.

There are opportunities in the UK. However if you are lazy then you will not find them. I think that is a pretty reasonable situation.

Those that put in the effort gain the rewards. Fair enough IMO.

As for some of the money made by some people in this country ? Yes it can be obscene. However this goes for Investment bankers and 21 year old footballers alike.

How about telling these people there are no opportunities in this country ? Surely they are the perfect (If not very pleasant !!) example that there are opportunities to be taken....

[madpenguin]

Nope it's because they're all lazy, apparently.

To be honest, I'm not sure what traits betray someone as 'lazy', but I doubt very much getting off your 4rse and being bothered to protest is one of them.

Eygpt is getting...interesting.

I was recently involved in some recruitment for workers in Bulgaria for my company (non UK and based outside the UK before anyone screams), to our surprise most of the applicants were young Spanish guys who had moved there in search of work.

They have all been fantastically motivated and are all very bright, talking to them they paint a picture of hopelessness back home as bleak in Spain as it is for the UK youngsters.

I have 2 kids going through University in the UK at present, one has been working most of the past 3 years in the local corner supermarket (checkout and shelf stacking), a job which took a lot of effort to find and get the other is still looking.

I think there is a very "Daily Mail" attitude from a lot of people whenever youth unemployment is mentioned, most of my kids friends are putting a lot of effort into looking for part time work to tide them through Uni and after, but the fact of the matter is jobs for young people aren't available like they used to be, when I call the local take-aways in England the person who answers is a mature person with either and Eastern European/Russian or Indian accent, same in pubs, bars and resteraunts

The "cheap goods" argument for off shoring and employing cheaper immigrants is only good when a few companies do it, when everyone does it we see exactly what we are seeing, large scale unemployment in the native economy, low wages becoming the norm, low pay increases and a collapse of the economy because almost everyone is on low wages or benefits and are unable to keep the economy going

Edited January 26, 2011 by madpenguin

[Pole]

Now we're back to the same question: Why do the young think and act like this? Where did all this expectation come from?!? As far as I can understand we don't get born with it.

TV.

TV is promoting lifestyles that are impossible to live for all.

In a world were one person can earn in a month what most people can ever hope to earn in a lifetime, I don't think there is.

Young people could easily rule the UK. However, they won't because...

It's the young people who fill football stadiums every weekend and pay to watch those who earn fortunes for kicking a leather ball filled with air.

It's the young people who watch xfactor and other meaningless entertainment and therefore support those who earn fortunes for nothing.

It's the young people who use debit/credit cards and therefore support and enslave themselves to banks.

It's the young people who buy most of the recent digital gadgets and find themselves supporting ruthless global corporations,

And it's the millions of young people who don't vote for parties that offer real change.

[Big Orange]

Rubbish!

Merkel's remarks aren't ill advised at all, she now is starting to see the issues which can / do / will arise when you open your borders to people whose cultural, social and societal norms may well be diametrically opposed to yours.

I see you've not answered my previous comments about Europe, you weren't aware of those facts I take it?

Merkel blurted it out because she was in political trouble and wanted to net support from Germany's foaming at the mouth Neo-Nazis who hate Turkish Muslims and European Jews, because....

And I don't find the EU inherently good nor inherently bad, but most of the anti-EU sentiments come from foaming at the mouth UK nationalists who hate this European political body, because....

Anyway this is a BBC report on the employment statistic bandied about by the Daily Mail:

What if the brick suppliers employ Polish workers as well?

Edited January 26, 2011 by Big Orange

[PopGun]

TV.

TV is promoting lifestyles that are impossible to live for all.

Young people could easily rule the UK. However, they won't because...

It's the young people who fill football stadiums every weekend and pay to watch those who earn fortunes for kicking a leather ball filled with air.

It's the young people who watch xfactor and other meaningless entertainment and therefore support those who earn fortunes for nothing.

It's the young people who use debit/credit cards and therefore support and enslave themselves to banks.

It's the young people who buy most of the recent digital gadgets and find themselves supporting ruthless global corporations,

And it's the millions of young people who don't vote for parties that offer real change.

The real reason why youth are all disenfranchised is there's no longer enough crumbs left to go round. Too much ‘wealth’ is concentrated to the relative few. Not because they see a cafe worker on EastEnders living in a £500k London home making them think "oh I deserve a bit of that"!

Expectation is manifested by your surrounding environment. I think being encouraged by your parents to study/work hard for little financial reward and being unable to afford even a basic flat, whilst your parents are living mortgage free in a house they bought 40 years ago after leaving school at 15 may have something more to do with it.

Even if you left school with nothing, you still had the opportunity back then. Nowadays opportunity is increasingly fleeting. Still who cares so long as the bankers get their bonus and bailouts, they’re worth it after all. Yet it seems even all the money in the world isn’t enough, so they’ll destroy the working poor and take what little is left from them as well, on a global scale.

Vote for real change? Do me a favour, you’re really clutching at straws with that one. I don’t remember ONE party offering a single credible policy to really make work pay. I certainly failed to see a single representative from the ‘Low cost houses for Britain’ party on my ballot sheet.

It isn't by accident social mobility is dead, and the gap between rich and poor is widening. Yet don't ever let that get in the way of generalising and blaming victims.

By the way, will you be using the TV/Computers/Pubs/PS3 platitude when the youth from the rest of the developing world joins in with the rioting?