Every 2 Out Of 3 New Jobs Go To Emigrants

[MEtallic]

Immigration...one topic guaranteed to bring on much debate, mostly by those who've not studied the issues to any great depth but rely mostly on anecdotal or first hand experience to make a decision.

I love HPC because I think those who post here have a better understanding of the issues than most, but immigration is an incredibly complex issue:

1. The need for skilled workers, particularly in R&D, which most British graduates aren't interested in (from my experience of trying to recruit PhD students in a British university).

2. Low cost labour may mean poorer living conditions, BUT it also means you pay less for good & services, e.g., trains, hospitals, food etc

3. Ban Immigration? Well, be prepared for a ban on Emigration. Not sure how that would sit with many wanting to try their luck overseas..

4. Unrealistic expectations regarding income, lifestyle etc., magnified by the recent unsustainable debt fuelled spending spree we've all partaken in..

5. How about all the jobs created by Easyjet and Ryanair and in British Airports to cater for people travelling to see families overseas?

6. How about the tax immigrants pay? The goods and services they purchase?

7. When does an immigrant stop becoming an immigrant, O Descendents of the Normans?

There are likely to be other issues at play. For example, want to ban Chinese immigrants? How about they stop selling us stuff we need? Ban Poles from working here? Well, they might decide to sell their coal elsewhere..

A certain amount of diplomacy is needed in these difficult times, and the likes of the BNP will likely push us towards a trade war then a shooting war if we're not careful

[Harry Monk]

Immigration...one topic guaranteed to bring on much debate, mostly by those who've not studied the issues to any great depth but rely mostly on anecdotal or first hand experience to make a decision.

Surely first-hand experience is a reasonable thing to use in coming to a viewpoint?

[MEtallic]

Surely first-hand experience is a reasonable thing to use in coming to a viewpoint?

Up to a point, but we deceive ourselves if we think we can understand such a complex problem in full. My 'first hand experience' relates to R&D in universities and even then I don't have access to all the date or understand the long term ramifications of the current immigration policy on R&D.... will it be positive (e.g., overseas student coming up with a brilliant and wealth creating idea) or negative (e.g, increased reliance on overseas skills) I don't know.

[Grayphil]

Immigration...one topic guaranteed to bring on much debate, mostly by those who've not studied the issues to any great depth but rely mostly on anecdotal or first hand experience to make a decision.

A certain amount of diplomacy is needed in these difficult times, and the likes of the BNP will likely push us towards a trade war then a shooting war if we're not careful

I agree entirely with your post, I also believe it is a huge issue and that both sides need to be looked at very carefully before becoming too judgemental,

My views and ideas about this are not the norm of British Society, but my first hand experience does tell me, that everyone in the world is a human being, just trying to provide the best that they can for their families,

[alexw]

Immigration...one topic guaranteed to bring on much debate, mostly by those who've not studied the issues to any great depth but rely mostly on anecdotal or first hand experience to make a decision.

I love HPC because I think those who post here have a better understanding of the issues than most, but immigration is an incredibly complex issue:

1. The need for skilled workers, particularly in R&D, which most British graduates aren't interested in (from my experience of trying to recruit PhD students in a British university).

2. Low cost labour may mean poorer living conditions, BUT it also means you pay less for good & services, e.g., trains, hospitals, food etc

3. Ban Immigration? Well, be prepared for a ban on Emigration. Not sure how that would sit with many wanting to try their luck overseas..

4. Unrealistic expectations regarding income, lifestyle etc., magnified by the recent unsustainable debt fuelled spending spree we've all partaken in..

5. How about all the jobs created by Easyjet and Ryanair and in British Airports to cater for people travelling to see families overseas?

6. How about the tax immigrants pay? The goods and services they purchase?

7. When does an immigrant stop becoming an immigrant, O Descendents of the Normans?

There are likely to be other issues at play. For example, want to ban Chinese immigrants? How about they stop selling us stuff we need? Ban Poles from working here? Well, they might decide to sell their coal elsewhere..

A certain amount of diplomacy is needed in these difficult times, and the likes of the BNP will likely push us towards a trade war then a shooting war if we're not careful

1) There is no need for more skilled PhD lvl workers in our economy, this is a myth perpetuated by those that benefit from increased flows of PhD workers, namely academics and the few companies that do recruit them. You can easily see this if you look at the number of jobs advertised asking for a PhD lvl qualification vs the number of PhD graduates. The latter vastly outnumber the former. Moreover this also can be seen by looking at PhD level R&D salaries, if there was a shortage salaries would rise significantly, rather they have stagnated or decreased relative to other professional level jobs.

2)It means if your well off you pay less, if your poor your loss of income is significantly more than you would gain in lower costs. In essence importing cheap labour is a transfer of wealth from the lowest quartile to the highest quartile, its why the powers that be love it.

3)No one said ban it, everyone says regulate it and limit it. Moreover most of our imigrants come from poorer countries while most who emigrate go to countries with a similar wealth profile. What would it matter to us if poland or estonia banned uk emigrants? damned little.

4)Agreed

5) This adds damned little, far far less than the costs imposed by immigrants and the loss of wealth and jobs due to uk monies being taken out of our economy and spent abroad when the immigrants go home.

6) They are a net cost relative to a uk worker doing the same job. Between 20-40% of a temporary migrants salary is saved to take home and spend abroad, this results in vastly less spent in our ecomony relative to a uk worker doing the same job. There are numerous other costs migrant workers impose relative to uk ones, which i wont go into.

7) This can take centuries, for immigrant communtities to be fully absorbed into society. The poles who came over during the 2nd world war have been absorbed and are fully integrated. On the other hand many pakistani's live in ghetto like conditions.

[wonderpup]

Well my personal experience is that most of the incoming workers I deal with are unfailingly polite, helpful and amazingly upbeat- of course they are a self selected group, but very impressive non the less.

But this positive view of them as individuals does not mean that I cannot point out that their presence, in such numbers, has had a depressing effect on wages at the bottom- and this was explicitly intended as part of the 'flexible labour' policy that was itself an extension of the 'anglo saxon' model of capitalism that has been such a wonderful 'success' recently.

But all this attack on the mindset of the native population, especially the young is quite bizzare- we taught them to think that way- we made it the prime directive of the education system to imbue ambition and a sense of high destiny in our kids- to prepare them for the the great 'knowledge economy' of the future.

So now we turn around and say, 'You know all that stuff about getting a good education leading to a career with prospects and skilled employment- that was all a fantasy- what we really expect you to do is take on those low paid jobs we told you were done by trash people who are not worth anything.

The low wages paid at the bottom are in themselves reflection of the contempt we heap upon the people that do these often vital jobs.

It's hardly surprising then that our children have an 'attitude' problem toward such jobs- because we, as a society, also have an attitude problem, one reflected in the pathetic rates of pay we tolerate in this sector.

[bpw]

The real issue here is globalization, not just the west to east but also across borders. I started a thread a few months ago regarding the statistics for unemployment, immigration, and new jobs created. In that posting I made it clear that IN PRINCIPLE if there was no immigration there would be no unemployment. The problem is many of the jobs in our service based economy are low end, low paid, low skilled. Britain's politicians have relied on the city of london and finance in general to replace skilled, manufacturing jobs with cheats and liars in banks, investment banks, estate agents, house builders.... you get the picture. This was and always has been a ponzi scheme and anyone with a house was slavering at the mouth each year as home prices around them rose, and rose and rose and......

Well guess what. The chickens are roosting.

I do feel some sympathy for the view that Britain squandered its' potential, following Thatchers rout of both the unions, and the scum that used to run the Labor party (sadly the likes of Harriet Harman are still there.). Britain could have taken the same path that Germany did but, instead, I would hypothesize that our class system put too much emphasis on services because this was the easiest way for middle class and upper class (revolting terminology!) to find well paid and influential jobs for their average intelligence sons and daughters. The whole basis of british society has always been its achilles heel and just read the drivel in the Telegraph and Daily Mail to see why. Self adulating nonsense that ignores the real danger facing the country. I frankly don't see any hope of a turnaround and its clear now that Cameron and Clegg are out of their depth and visionless.

Immigration...one topic guaranteed to bring on much debate, mostly by those who've not studied the issues to any great depth but rely mostly on anecdotal or first hand experience to make a decision.

[miko]

"The wages today do not pay for the standard of living that people enjoyed in the past."

This is the standard of living that was paid for by debt. Liar loans if you will. The money has run out, and we are going back to the 1960s, if we're lucky. In my parents day, if you were lucky enough to buy a house, it took years of hard work and saving to furnish it. Now people expect to walk into show house standards of living from the start. Please refer to the many threads about the unrealistic expectations set by Eastenders, Emerdale et al.

I started my career on a rubbish job that modern graduates wouldn't touch, and I've earned my way to what I have now. The implicit point in my previous post is that the immigrants that work, are working and are turning their hands to jobs the locals won't do. That is why immigrants are getting 2 out of 3 jobs. Where the locals see cr@p jobs they won't touch, the new arrivals see an opportunity to get started. The key lesson, is the immigrants will move on to better jobs in time, the locals will stay on benefits.

Every time there has been an influx of inward migration to a city (New York in the 1860s), the migrants start at the bottom of the pole doing the worst jobs. It's when they start working their way up that pole into more desirable positions, that's when the tensions begin. And when the economy turns South..................

Wrong again

Read back to your post 155 and my reply 156 you spoke of immigrants earning £6/7 ph. In the East London food manufacturing , I said I earn't that in the same industry 25 years ago. I bought a home a new car and had holidays on that money . The mortgage was just under 3x salary when I first took it out there were no liar loans back then.

I had second hand furniture to start with but was able to quickly replace it for new. Today the contents of the house have got cheaper and cheaper one example 25 years ago I paid £300 for a new fridge last year a similar fridge cost just £160. The down side is the home itself has increased in price and the running costs have increased in price , council tax and energy costs while the wages have decreased.

Do not blame young people for being unrealistic about their expectations . Anyone working where you do and earning that money could not afford the interest on the mortgage for the flat I had even if they sat on carboard boxes , did not eat and had the electricity turned off . The wages of the average have not kept up with the costs.

Yes immigrants often took the bottom jobs and then worked up while the population already there had the better jobs . However what we have now is the immigrants taking the bottom jobs which pay so little pricing out the population already there. The population already there have to join in the ever decreasing circles of low wages or opt out of the system onto benefits. I don't blame them , when I worked in the food industry I worked nights and overtime to enjoy my standard of living would I work nights and overtime to live in a bedsit ? answer NO.

Said it to you once and will say it again when I signed on there were more immigrants than British signing on with me they are not all working away merrilly for shi- pay.

Edited January 23, 2011 by miko

[miko]

Really ? So why do so many who are angry about not having work - continually bring it up ?

Why do so many like you constantly tell us they are so good ?

[ccc]

Why do so many like you constantly tell us they are so good ?

I am not telling you they are all so good. Just that many are. And many are better than the UK equivalent. So therefore they get work ahead of the 'local'.

This makes sense. It would be mental if it were not true. However some just cannot seem to accept it for some reason ? Any other reason will do - however don't tell me I am simply not as good as that pesky Pole going for the same job !!

Now whether so many should be here, what mass short term immigration has done etc... That is a related, but different subject.

The fact is whether we like it or not many Poles etc.. ARE HERE. Not much you can do about it just now. So accepting that many of them are just very hard working and better in a lot of roles than many 'locals' ?

I don't see the big deal. I don't know why so many are so desparate never to accept this.

Edited January 23, 2011 by ccc

[miko]

I am not telling you they are all so good. Just that many are. And many are better than the UK equivalent. So therefore they get work ahead of the 'local'.

This makes sense. It would be mental if it were not true. However some just cannot seem to accept it for some reason ? Any other reason will do - however don't tell me I am simply not as good as that pesky Pole going for the same job !!

Now whether so many should be here, what mass short term immigration has done etc... That is a related, but different subject.

The fact is whether we like it or not many Poles etc.. ARE HERE. Not much you can do about it just now. So accepting that many of them are just very hard working and better in a lot of roles than many 'locals' ?

I don't see the big deal. I don't know why so many are so desparate never to accept this.

[/quot.

An ironic statment form someone like you who has a mental block in accepting that there are more people than jobs and so therefore there will be x amount of unemployed people including some from the Polish community.

To coin one of your own phrashes

" IT'S QUITE SIMPLE REALLY "

but you are desparate never to accept that maybe if you looked at yourself and thought about the reasons that you won't accept that situation you might have a better understanding of why others don't accept things that you do.

Edited January 23, 2011 by miko

[ccc]

An ironic statment form someone like you who has a mental block in accepting that there are more people than jobs and so therefore there will be x amount of unemployed people including some from the Polish community.

To coin one of your own phrashes

" IT'S QUITE SIMPLE REALLY "

but you are desparate never to accept that maybe if you looked at yourself and thought about the reasons that you won't accept that situation you might have a better understanding of why others don't accept things that you do.

Do you not listen ? I am not talking about whether there are more people than jobs. We have gone through this umpteen times before. In fact - this example actually goes hand in hand with what you are saying. Too many people going for the same job = only one can get it. I am saying when a number of people go for one job - quite often- a Polish person will get it ahead of a local. Why ? Because they are simply better at it.

You just cannot accept that can you ? Just say it once. Try.

'Sometimes Polish people get jobs because they are better'

I don't think you will actually be able to type that without having some sort of fit.

[miko]

Do you not listen ? I am not talking about whether there are more people than jobs. We have gone through this umpteen times before. In fact - this example actually goes hand in hand with what you are saying. Too many people going for the same job = only one can get it. I am saying when a number of people go for one job - quite often- a Polish person will get it ahead of a local. Why ? Because they are simply better at it.

You just cannot accept that can you ? Just say it once. Try.

'Sometimes Polish people get jobs because they are better'

I don't think you will actually be able to type that without having some sort of fit.

NO NO you were the one that missed the point

You constantly fail to see that there are more people than jobs yet berate others because they could not see a concept that you believed in i.e. Poles were better than British .

What I am trying to get across to you is this:-

One group not accepting something that you beleived was true is the same as you not accepting something that others beleived to be true . We don't need to be talking about unemployment , Poles , Deep sea anchorage , the lottery numbers or the size of David Camerons Boggys we are talking about points, beliefs and peoples understandings . You constantly fail to see others points however bereate people that do not see yours ! that is the point that I am making .

Quite simple really if you think about it.

[ccc]

NO NO you were the one that missed the point

You constantly fail to see that there are more people than jobs yet berate others because they could not see a concept that you believed in i.e. Poles were better than British .

What I am trying to get across to you is this:-

One group not accepting something that you beleived was true is the same as you not accepting something that others beleived to be true . We don't need to be talking about unemployment , Poles , Deep sea anchorage , the lottery numbers or the size of David Camerons Boggys we are talking about points, beliefs and peoples understandings . You constantly fail to see others points however bereate people that do not see yours ! that is the point that I am making .

Quite simple really if you think about it.

So you can't bring yourself to say it - can you ?

[miko]

So you can't bring yourself to say it - can you ?

Has the message got home ?

Did you find it simple ? if you think about it it is quite simple really isn't it !!!

[ccc]

Has the message got home ?

Did you find it simple ? if you think about it it is quite simple really isn't it !!!

So you still cant bring yourself to say it - can you ? I think that says a lot.

So ask yourself - just WHY do 2 out of 3 jobs go to 'emigrants' ?

Now there are numerous reasons here. Benefits being one. However do you accept that in some cases the 'foreigners' get the jobs for one simple reason - they are better than the locals going for the same job.

Can you admit that - and if not - why not ?

[justthisbloke]

Presumably, on average, Poles in Britain will be better candidates than Brits in Britain.

The Poles in Britain are a self-selected sample that is more motivated to work than their fellow Poles. Ie the ones here are the ones with the initiative and drive to travel from one end of the EU to the other.

For the average Brit in Britain, there's no such self-selection.

If you add in the fact that the Brit doesn't actually have to work if he doesn't choose to, it becomes even more obvious that one should expect the average immigrant to be more employable than the average native.

The final straw is, of course, qualifications. For customer facing work, the second language is often something that's hard to find in Brits.

[ccc]

Presumably, on average, Poles in Britain will be better candidates than Brits in Britain.

The Poles in Britain are a self-selected sample that is more motivated to work than their fellow Poles. Ie the ones here are the ones with the initiative and drive to travel from one end of the EU to the other.

For the average Brit in Britain, there's no such self-selection.

If you add in the fact that the Brit doesn't actually have to work if he doesn't choose to, it becomes even more obvious that one should expect the average immigrant to be more employable than the average native.

The final straw is, of course, qualifications. For customer facing work, the second language is often something that's hard to find in Brits.

Yep very true. As I have said before - similar to the situation of gap year workers in the likes of Oz or NZ. The employers over there probably think this lot are amazingly hard working as well.

So whether people think the situation is right. Or there are too many immigrants here. Or there are not enough jobs. Or globalisation has a lot to answer for. Or people here dont get the education or skills they need. Or anything else people would like to debate.

The fact remains that many Poles over here get the jobs because they are better candidates. Some just cannot accept this. I find it rather strange.

[Harry Monk]

Do you not listen ? I am not talking about whether there are more people than jobs. We have gone through this umpteen times before. In fact - this example actually goes hand in hand with what you are saying. Too many people going for the same job = only one can get it. I am saying when a number of people go for one job - quite often- a Polish person will get it ahead of a local. Why ? Because they are simply better at it.

You just cannot accept that can you ? Just say it once. Try.

'Sometimes Polish people get jobs because they are better'

No, Polish people are not "better".

They do not have have six arms, God did not give them superior spatial co-ordination skills or anything like that, they are simply cheaper to employ, same as Chinese people make Scalextric track nowadays because they do it for a tenth of the cost and not because they have some racial superiority in slot-car track assembling abilities.

I mention Scalextric simply because Hornby-Rovex, used to manufacture it at a very busy factory local to me, this was the largest local employer by far, but now all of the workers, and the children who would have replaced them, are on benefits. Their jobs are in China.

So instead of spending their wages locally, keeping local business alive, and paying tax, they are draining from the tax pool.

Not their fault though. They didn't become "lazy" or "inferior" on the day Hornby-Rovex wrote to them to tell them they were being laid off.

[ccc]

No, Polish people are not "better".

They do not have have six arms, God did not give them superior spatial co-ordination skills or anything like that, they are simply cheaper to employ, same as Chinese people make Scalextric track nowadays because they do it for a tenth of the cost and not because they have some racial superiority in slot-car track assembling abilities.

I mention Scalextric simply because Hornby-Rovex, used to manufacture it at a very busy factory local to me, this was the largest local employer by far, but now all of the workers, and the children who would have replaced them, are on benefits. Their jobs are in China.

So instead of spending their wages locally, keeping local business alive, and paying tax, they are draining from the tax pool.

Not their fault though. They didn't become "lazy" or "inferior" on the day Hornby-Rovex wrote to them to tell them they were being laid off.

When did I say they are better !? ****** sake so many people just make stuff up when it comes to this subject. I said when they go for jobs they are 'Quite Often' better than the local counterpart. Does this not make perfect sense ? Would it not be mental to think anything else ?! The reason for this is probably more complex, however it doe snot change the fact.

Some Polish people are better that British people when it comes to work. The opposite is of course also true. GET OVER IT !!

Because they're cheaper than their UK counterparts and because they're more desperate for work, having traveled 1000+ miles to get here, with no family or existing network to rely on. But mostly because they're more likely, for all of the aforementioned reasons, to "touch the folock" to the boss, and boy oh boy do the bosses love having their arses kissed.

Right - how many times are people going to wheel out this ridiculous nonsense ? So that Polish bod working in your local KFC is cheaper than Dave who he works alongside. Is he really ? How exactly does htat work.

Oh sorry I forgot. All Polish work in dodgy factories for cash in hand 1.50 per hour and live 10 to a dorm.

[miko]

Presumably, on average, Poles in Britain will be better candidates than Brits in Britain.

The Poles in Britain are a self-selected sample that is more motivated to work than their fellow Poles. Ie the ones here are the ones with the initiative and drive to travel from one end of the EU to the other.

For the average Brit in Britain, there's no such self-selection.

If you add in the fact that the Brit doesn't actually have to work if he doesn't choose to, it becomes even more obvious that one should expect the average immigrant to be more employable than the average native.

The final straw is, of course, qualifications. For customer facing work, the second language is often something that's hard to find in Brits.

No I will not agree with that . Cheaper does not always mean better .

If you think about it there are many reasons why they are getting these jobs but you just have a closed mind don't you .

It's all quite simple really if you think about it but as I said this is the part where you have a mental block a closed mind . I do understand that it is NOT quite simple for you to understand these simple concepts and will not trouble you again .

[Harry Monk]

When did I say they are better !?

Post 188, when you said

Sometimes Polish people get jobs because they are better

HTH

[ccc]

It works like this: you get what you negotiate (aka as little as your employer can get away with), not what you deserve. I've worked in many companies where employees in the same role or higher earned less that their colleagues. Immigrants have less negotiating power than their UK counterparts.

Really ? In KFC and my local sandwich shop !!

You do realise just how ridiculous that is ?

Post 188, when you said

HTH

I don't want to sound patronising here - but ****** it - I think this is a situation that merits it.

You do understand what SOMETIMES means - don't you ? You know it means not always ? You know it means that the opposite of the statement in question is also SOMETIMES true.

My word - when it comes to this subject people really do go off the ******ing rails in levels of mentalness.

[ccc]

We agree, it is ridiculous to pay a different wage to people essentially doing the same job!

Do you honestly think most Polish in this country are earning less than their UK counterpart ? Do you think this happens in sandwich shops, cleaning companies and the likes of KFC.

You don't honestly believe this do you....

[Britney's Piers]

ill bet a lot of these jobs are manual jobs - service industry, manufacturing, labour , and unfortuantely the east europeans, the poles in particular are far better workers with better work ethic, arrive on time, work hard, rarely take time off.

if you ran your own company lets say a manufacturer offering line work or a run a hotel that needs catering staff and it was your house on the line - who would you employ?

jobs arent given out on a plate, these people are picked out from a choice of maybe 50 applicants per job.

to say its just becuase they accept low pay is nonsense. a job is advertised with the pay stated in advance.

a large proportion of british workers will be appling for these jobs too but too many just do not cut the grade in terms of work ethic.

The reason they work harder is because they are paid more after currency is taken into account.

There are Polish teachers who jacked in their job to work as factory packers. I wonder what the Polish rate payer feels about their work ethic, after paying for their education and training.