Outsourcing To India Draws Western Lawyers

[interestrateripoff]

Mhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html?_r=1&ref=business

As an assistant attorney general for New York State, Christopher Wheeler used to spend most of his time arguing in courtrooms in New York City.

Today, he works in a sprawling, unfinished planned suburb of New Delhi, where office buildings are sprouting from empty lots and dirt roads are fringed with fresh juice stalls and construction rubble. At Pangea3, a legal outsourcing firm, Mr. Wheeler manages a team of 110 Indian lawyers who do the grunt work traditionally assigned to young lawyers in the United States — at a fraction of the cost.

India’s legal outsourcing industry has grown in recent years from an experimental endeavor to a small but mainstream part of the global business of law. Cash-conscious Wall Street banks, mining giants, insurance firms and industrial conglomerates are hiring lawyers in India for document review, due diligence, contract management and more.

Now, to win new clients and take on more sophisticated work, legal outsourcing firms in India are actively recruiting experienced lawyers from the West. And American and British lawyers — who might once have turned up their noses at the idea of moving to India, or harbored an outright hostility to outsourcing legal work in principle — are re-evaluating the sector.

The number of legal outsourcing companies in India has mushroomed to more than 140 at the end of 2009, from 40 in 2005, according to Valuenotes, a consulting firm in Pune, India. Revenue at India’s legal outsourcing firms is expected to grow to $440 million this year, up 38 percent from 2008, and should surpass $1 billion by 2014, Valuenotes estimates.

“This is not a blip, this is a big historical movement,” said David B. Wilkins, director of Harvard Law School’s program on the legal profession. “There is an increasing pressure by clients to reduce costs and increase efficiency,” he added, and with companies already familiar with outsourcing tasks like information technology work to India, legal services is a natural next step.

So far, the number of Western lawyers moving to outsourcing companies could be called more of a trickle than a flood. But that may change, as more business flows out of traditional law firms and into India. Compensation for top managers at legal outsourcing firms is competitive with salaries at midsize law firms outside of major metropolitan areas of the United States, executives in the industry say. Living costs are much lower in India, and often, there is the added allure of stock in the outsourcing company.

Japanese are outsourcing themselves thread

A few weeks ago there was this story about Japanese outsourcing themselves to find work and now it appears it's started in the West as well?

Coming to more sectors soon?

[ken_ichikawa]

Mhttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html?_r=1&ref=business

Japanese are outsourcing themselves thread

A few weeks ago there was this story about Japanese outsourcing themselves to find work and now it appears it's started in the West as well?

Coming to more sectors soon?

It already happened though, Heena the outsourcer who destroyed my job, used to work in London, she was born in London but could speak Urdu and went out there to open the outsourcing company.

Apollo private medicine was founded by NHS trained doctors in India, this is not new news.

Anything which can be outsourced will be.

Anything which can be mechanised will be.

Thus I think we are looking at 70-90% structural unemployment.... as long as the lights stay on.

[TwoWolves]

... as long as the lights stay on.

But they aren't are they? How long can an animal live by eating its non-essential body parts?

[needsleep]

Everything is up for grabs. Massive chunks of IT and telecomms have already gone. Call centres have gone. Accounting. HR. Law etc... etc... And they want it both ways. They want to be able to bring as many people as they want in on ICT visas so what little of the domestic employment market remains will be flooded by foreign workers. You have to ask what on earth is our government thinking?

[fluffy666]

Everything is up for grabs. Massive chunks of IT and telecomms have already gone. Call centres have gone. Accounting. HR. Law etc... etc... And they want it both ways. They want to be able to bring as many people as they want in on ICT visas so what little of the domestic employment market remains will be flooded by foreign workers. You have to ask what on earth is our government thinking?

This would be the government bought and paid for by the Banking, Accountancy and Consultancy forms?

[DabHand]

This would be the government bought and paid for by the Banking, Accountancy and Consultancy forms?

Aye

[Gone baby gone]

Can't help feeling people like Mr. Wheeler have been swept up in the offshoring craze. With unemployment running at 10% (20% in some areas) in the US, and huge amounts of empty property, he could have replicated this model closer to home - by setting up shop outside of Detroit for example.

[Gone baby gone]

Everything is up for grabs. Massive chunks of IT and telecomms have already gone. Call centres have gone. Accounting. HR. Law etc... etc... And they want it both ways. They want to be able to bring as many people as they want in on ICT visas so what little of the domestic employment market remains will be flooded by foreign workers. You have to ask what on earth is our government thinking?

Want to hear something funny?

The government are still (as of last month) issuing work visas for non-EU IT workers. I know of one guy from India who didn't have a job lined up in the UK (i.e. no sponsor), applied for a visa and was granted it. He turned up and started touting himself around various companies in the South East.

I can't see the unemployment figures dropping much while this continues.

[torridon18]

Outsourcing jobs to other countries is a long slow suicide for the UK. When will these companies realise that in the long term they are killing the UK and not doing themselves any favours? We need to keed as many jobs as possible in the UK to feed the circle.

[stuckmojo]

Outsourcing jobs to other countries is a long slow suicide for the UK. When will these companies realise that in the long term they are killing the UK and not doing themselves any favours? We need to keed as many jobs as possible in the UK to feed the circle.

pure capitalism: capital flows globally and jobs go the same way. It's like water, going the path of least resistance.

Only when the UK (and the rest of the west) will be poor enough to compete with the Chinese and Indian minimum wage workers will we get some jobs back.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that we'll have to wait until the Chindians become wealthy enough to export unwanted jobs. It's a downward spiral

[Gone baby gone]

pure capitalism: capital flows globally and jobs go the same way. It's like water, going the path of least resistance.

Only when the UK (and the rest of the west) will be poor enough to compete with the Chinese and Indian minimum wage workers will we get some jobs back.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that we'll have to wait until the Chindians become wealthy enough to export unwanted jobs. It's a downward spiral

<cough> Tarrifs <cough> Transaction tax <cough>

[pl1]

It already happened though, Heena the outsourcer who destroyed my job, used to work in London, she was born in London but could speak Urdu and went out there to open the outsourcing company.

Apollo private medicine was founded by NHS trained doctors in India, this is not new news.

Anything which can be outsourced will be.

Anything which can be mechanised will be.

Thus I think we are looking at 70-90% structural unemployment.... as long as the lights stay on.

Good points. I think this is true and unavoidable. What we should be concentrating on the rest of this thread is: How can we make money from this?

[Dorkins]

Only when the UK (and the rest of the west) will be poor enough to compete with the Chinese and Indian minimum wage workers will we get some jobs back.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that we'll have to wait until the Chindians become wealthy enough to export unwanted jobs. It's a downward spiral

That's fine by me, I can live with deflation. It's the interest-only mortgage muppets who have placed six figure bets on inflation (also, the banks who lent to them) who are screwed in that scenario. Ordinary people shouldn't be gambling ten years of their gross salary on monetary policy anyway.

[skomer]

Want to hear something funny?

The government are still (as of last month) issuing work visas for non-EU IT workers. I know of one guy from India who didn't have a job lined up in the UK (i.e. no sponsor), applied for a visa and was granted it. He turned up and started touting himself around various companies in the South East.

I can't see the unemployment figures dropping much while this continues.

He could be one of the lucky 24,000 though i doubt there is a skills shortage in IT work at the moment? Of course ICT Visa's are not covered by this

I did spot Patricia Hewitt on the news last week in the background when Dave Cameron was over in India The vested interests to undermine the Koalishon non-EU workers cap is immense

[concerned_money]

It already happened though, Heena the outsourcer who destroyed my job, used to work in London, she was born in London but could speak Urdu and went out there to open the outsourcing company.

Apollo private medicine was founded by NHS trained doctors in India, this is not new news.

Anything which can be outsourced will be.

Anything which can be mechanised will be.

Thus I think we are looking at 70-90% structural unemployment.... as long as the lights stay on.

What you say seems correct.

Engineering, IT, Law, Accounting, Building services, Call centres.......etc

So unemployment = povety for the middle classes in addition to falling tax revenue & povety for the working classes (outsourced to china).

Falling taxes = printing money or reduced state benefits = further poverty for the unemployed.

Whens the revolution ?

Edited August 5, 2010 by concerned_money

[stuckmojo]

That's fine by me, I can live with deflation. It's the interest-only mortgage muppets who have placed six figure bets on inflation (also, the banks who lent to them) who are screwed in that scenario. Ordinary people shouldn't be gambling ten years of their gross salary on monetary policy anyway.

Oh I am not complaining. I look forward to growing my own food and enjoying the de-globalisation as it inevitably happens (it's the resources, you know)

If the over-leveraged get screwed in the process well, screw them.

[ralphmalph]

Can't help feeling people like Mr. Wheeler have been swept up in the offshoring craze. With unemployment running at 10% (20% in some areas) in the US, and huge amounts of empty property, he could have replicated this model closer to home - by setting up shop outside of Detroit for example.

But then he would have had to pay for Obamacare for all the workers. In India no Obamacare, much lower costs.

[DeepLurker]

That's fine by me, I can live with deflation. It's the interest-only mortgage muppets who have placed six figure bets on inflation (also, the banks who lent to them) who are screwed in that scenario. Ordinary people shouldn't be gambling ten years of their gross salary on monetary policy anyway.

Surely inflation is the logical outcome? Merv prints like mad, the Chindians don't want any of these dodgy £s so it tanks - all the imported stuff goes sky high and we get inflation.

[heresjohnny]

My missus works for a bank and can speak Punjabi - they're always asking her to go over to India to work with the call centre operation over there. Her feeling (and that of her colleagues) is that some of this stuff is ultimately going to be onshored back because of poor customer service but the cost benefit to businesses in the UK is massively tempting.

[miko]

My missus works for a bank and can speak Punjabi - they're always asking her to go over to India to work with the call centre operation over there. Her feeling (and that of her colleagues) is that some of this stuff is ultimately going to be onshored back because of poor customer service but the cost benefit to businesses in the UK is massively tempting.

Yes some companies are coming back to uk call centres , and about time as well, the service from India is worse than useless.

[Guest absolutezero]

It already happened though, Heena the outsourcer who destroyed my job, used to work in London, she was born in London but could speak Urdu and went out there to open the outsourcing company.

Apollo private medicine was founded by NHS trained doctors in India, this is not new news.

Anything which can be outsourced will be.

Anything which can be mechanised will be.

Thus I think we are looking at 70-90% structural unemployment.... as long as the lights stay on.

And yet the nutters on here who believe they are indispensable don't see the writing on the wall.

[pl1]

Yes some companies are coming back to uk call centres , and about time as well, the service from India is worse than useless.

I called a broadband call centre in India and I thought the service was pretty good. The English was understandable but I did chuckle when he said (do Indian accent before saying this): "Sir, you can even chuck the device in a bucket of water and it will still work afterwards".

[Soul Reaver]

Yes some companies are coming back to uk call centres , and about time as well, the service from India is worse than useless.

I have been outsourced now 3 times and now here in Switzerland we are seeing Indians on the floor. I'm fast running out of places to run to! I'ts fast to. At 02 in Munich the whole department was gone in less than a year to Wipro and Techmahindra! They will take ALL our jobs and they are very good at doing it to.

They start off with a few testers and then once they have their foot in it's invites over to India and oh look we can do the whole thing for you from management down, all you need is the CEO and the shareholders!

Edited August 5, 2010 by Soul Reaver

[Guest absolutezero]

What you say seems correct.

Engineering, IT, Law, Accounting, Building services, Call centres.......etc

So unemployment = povety for the middle classes in addition to falling tax revenue & povety for the working classes (outsourced to china).

Falling taxes = printing money or reduced state benefits = further poverty for the unemployed.

Whens the revolution ?

When it becomes too late to actually get anything done.

It's all to do with the freaks on here who believe they can't be outsourced. "I'm alright, Jack". Until they're not.

But what's it matter? It's only call centres, accountants and lawyers?

Edited August 5, 2010 by absolutezero

[miko]

I have been outsourced now 3 times and now here in Switzerland we are seeing Indians on the floor. I'm fast running out of places to run to! I'ts fast to. At 02 in Munich the whole department was gone in less than a year to Wipro and Techmahindra! They will take ALL our jobs and they are very good at doing it to.

They start off with a few testers and then once they have their foot in it's invites over to India and oh look we can do the whole thing for you from management down, all you need is the CEO and the shareholders!

They also need customers, all very well taking the jobs form the west out to the cheaper places but in time no one in the west are going to be able to buy all the wonderful goods and services that these greedy companies produce.