Outsourcing To India Draws Western Lawyers

[TwoWolves]

... as long as I can compete fairly in the new set-up.

Well this is the rub - you can't.

Developing countries like India have the edge because they have lower costs of living, this is based on less income redistribution and social care as well as lower health and safety at work and a fair bit of copyright infringement.

There's nothing fair about it at all, we've been done.

[rentslave]

You can't compete with an Indian on $2 a day so you won't be happy for the to get rid of you.

What a strange person you are. you look forward to your livelihood being taken away from you. No wonder we are in such a mess.

I doubt whether an Indian on $2 a day can really manage the internal information systems of a large UK corporation. To buy that kind of expertise (even in India) would cost about half of what they pay me, but to be honest I would do it for half if I could relocate to the Mediterranean

Also my job is not my livelihood. My skills are my livelihood and I'll only give them away for a price.

I think you have a very simple-minded view of what employment means, but to be fair you're not alone.

You're not a business.

You are a person.

You are there to be used by your employer. And when they're finished with you you'll be tossed aside as the rubbish they think you to be.

I am indeed a person, but I also need to earn a living.

If my bosses want to toss me aside I am more than happy to sell my expertise to one of their many competitors.

I notice you still haven't outlined your alternative, but perhaps you're just one of those posters who likes to pour invective on others without actually having any ideas of your own??

[rentslave]

Well this is the rub - you can't.

Developing countries like India have the edge because they have lower costs of living, this is based on less income redistribution and social care as well as lower health and safety at work and a fair bit of copyright infringement.

There's nothing fair about it at all, we've been done.

Your point only holds is competition is all about price.

I would play for Chelsea for 1% of what they pay Frank Lampard, but I suspect they won't be tempted by my offer

[Guest absolutezero]

I doubt whether an Indian on $2 a day can really manage the internal information systems of a large UK corporation.

They can. They will.

To buy that kind of expertise (even in India) would cost about half of what they pay me, but to be honest I would do it for half if I could relocate to the Mediterranean

You can't. They'll cut the cost by 50% and cut your wage by 100%.

Also my job is not my livelihood. My skills are my livelihood and I'll only give them away for a price.

And 1 billion people can undercut you.

I think you have a very simple-minded view of what employment means, but to be fair you're not alone.

No. It means being used.

I am indeed a person, but I also need to earn a living.

If my bosses want to toss me aside I am more than happy to sell my expertise to one of their many competitors.

Who are also tossing their people like you aside.

I notice you still haven't outlined your alternative, but perhaps you're just one of those posters who likes to pour invective on others without actually having any ideas of your own??

Get a job that HAS to be done at the point of use.

[TwoWolves]

Your point only holds is competition is all about price.

I would play for Chelsea for 1% of what they pay Frank Lampard, but I suspect they won't be tempted by my offer

A premiership level footballer has a highly specialised and rare skill level; you do not. You are deluding yourself because you don't want to face the truth - that we have all been conned by the globalists.

http://lifehacker.com/5603746/get-smarter-by-realizing-youre-not-that-great

[Guest absolutezero]

And that'll be done at a fraction of your cost by indians/eastern europeans living 20 to a rented flat in the UK. Poles are much more hard working than brits don't you know

Indeed. We are all f*cked - just some less than others.

[interestrateripoff]

They also need customers, all very well taking the jobs form the west out to the cheaper places but in time no one in the west are going to be able to buy all the wonderful goods and services that these greedy companies produce.

You see the greedy companies are relying on new jobs being created by someone else, so people in the West can continue to buy all of these goods and services.

[erranta]

Well this is the rub - you can't.

Developing countries like India have the edge because they have lower costs of living, this is based on less income redistribution and social care as well as lower health and safety at work and a fair bit of copyright infringement.

There's nothing fair about it at all, we've been done.

We are more often shown India in a bullshite Western TV view - whereas in reality, they operate at the levels of medieval feudalism, with a majority forced to live as wandering bands of starving migrant/itinerant slave workers!

[rentslave]

They can. They will.

Er, no they can't. I've already said the nearest fit (not a great fit in my opinion) would still cost around half. Highly skilled Indians are not working for $2 per day. If they are, maybe you could try hiring one?

You can't. They'll cut the cost by 50% and cut your wage by 100%.

Why can't I? If I can provide a better solution (in better English) at the same price, why would they say no? They can cut the cost of me by 50% without the bother of offshoring.

Who are also tossing their people like you aside.

Your language is very emotive, suggesting your opinion is more emotion than thought-based.

My company's competitors might be 'tossing people aside' but they still need the skills required to deliver their services, and for that they must pay the going rate (which I've already said I'm prepared to match/better if I have the flexibility to change my circumstances).

Get a job that HAS to be done at the point of use.

Is that not one of the options I outlined in my original post?

However, you must accept that this is not open to everyone. All IT and professional service workers (for example) do work that does not have to be done at the point of use. Are you suggesting they all just give up their professions now?

[rentslave]

A premiership level footballer has a highly specialised and rare skill level; you do not. You are deluding yourself because you don't want to face the truth - that we have all been conned by the globalists.

http://lifehacker.com/5603746/get-smarter-by-realizing-youre-not-that-great

My joke shows that I realize I don't have the specialized skills of a premiership footballer

I do, however, have some skills, and they are marketable. As I said before, some companies have brought services back 'onshore' because they just didn't get the skills they needed in India/elsewhere.

The end game of this is that we will be poorer as a nation unless we can find higher quality products/services to sell to others and give ourselves the skills to compete on more than just price.

I'm not saying everything in the global garden is rosy (i agree that labour laws in some of these countries needs to be improved as a pre-requisite to entering the global trading community), but to suggest it means poverty for us all is just emotive juvenile nonsense.

[Guest absolutezero]

Er, no they can't.

Er, yes they can. And yes they will.

I've already said the nearest fit (not a great fit in my opinion) would still cost around half. Highly skilled Indians are not working for $2 per day. If they are, maybe you could try hiring one?

Why would I hire anyone to do anything?

Interesting that you've priced up what Indians cost...

Why can't I? If I can provide a better solution (in better English) at the same price, why would they say no? They can cut the cost of me by 50% without the bother of offshoring.

Because sooner or later you'll become and inconvenience or you'll try and raise your price or not agree to their new, worse offer. Cut the crap and get rid of you now. Easier for them.

Your language is very emotive, suggesting your opinion is more emotion than thought-based.

"Tossed aside" was your term. Not mine. So you're applying the same logic to your own argument? Just to be clear.

My company's competitors might be 'tossing people aside' but they still need the skills required to deliver their services, and for that they must pay the going rate (which I've already said I'm prepared to match/better if I have the flexibility to change my circumstances).

It is not possible for you to compete with Indian standards of living. Good luck deluding yourself into trying.

Is that not one of the options I outlined in my original post?

Probably. Long time since I read it now.

However, you must accept that this is not open to everyone. All IT and professional service workers (for example) do work that does not have to be done at the point of use. Are you suggesting they all just give up their professions now?

It's called attempting to futureproof themselves. If they can see the writing on the wall they'd be foolish not to prepare.

[ZeroSumGame]

I did spot Patricia Hewitt on the news last week in the background when Dave Cameron was over in India The vested interests to undermine the Koalishon non-EU workers cap is immense

Always nice to see Mother Patricia of Calcutta doing her bit for British Indian jobs.

[stuckmojo]

The end game of this is that we will be poorer as a nation unless we can find higher quality products/services to sell to others and give ourselves the skills to compete on more than just price.

I'm not saying everything in the global garden is rosy (i agree that labour laws in some of these countries needs to be improved as a pre-requisite to entering the global trading community), but to suggest it means poverty for us all is just emotive juvenile nonsense.

I agree with you on the principle that you feel you'll be ok. The key element is the impoverishment of the rest of the country. That will happen no matter how good you are at keeping your skills marketable.

And that will affect your lifestyle as well, unless you happen to be one of the mega-rich.

We'll get back to dual-class societies, with the few very wealthy and the rest in misery. Just like the East is now.

[efdemin]

My joke shows that I realize I don't have the specialized skills of a premiership footballer

I do, however, have some skills, and they are marketable. As I said before, some companies have brought services back 'onshore' because they just didn't get the skills they needed in India/elsewhere.

The end game of this is that we will be poorer as a nation unless we can find higher quality products/services to sell to others and give ourselves the skills to compete on more than just price.

I'm not saying everything in the global garden is rosy (i agree that labour laws in some of these countries needs to be improved as a pre-requisite to entering the global trading community), but to suggest it means poverty for us all is just emotive juvenile nonsense.

Ok, can I guess that you're under 30 then?

You seem quite sure of your skills and I don't doubt you can do a better job than an outsourced engineer. So can I, at the moment.

The problem is IT keeps moving and you need to keep your skills up to date which becomes more difficult when you also have a full-time job to do. You can also become a specialist in one technology (or a few) and then some big game changer happens which means you have to re-learn most things and you're not a specialist any more (think of the effect the iPhone has had). Then the outsourced workers will be competing on a more even field, skills-wise.

From what you've written so far I don't think you've come across this yet hence why I'm guessing you're under 30.

I am probably wrong though

[miko]

Without revealing too much, I manage online information for a large company. My role is eminently outsource-able, but I'm pretty relaxed about it. I've even considered offering to outsource it to myself. I'll go and live in a cheaper country with broadband and take a pay cut.

I'm not quite sure my company is quite at that stage yet where it would accept the offer. Maybe I'll wait another year or two

I also have tried to add a bit of extra value, so I do a fair few things that are not in my job description, but are useful to my bosses. Nobody else could be bothered to do them - and I suspect they will be the people that whine the most if/when they get outsourced.

This must be the funiest post i have ever read on HPC , he has got to be making it up.

[rentslave]

Er, yes they can. And yes they will.

Why would I hire anyone to do anything?

Interesting that you've priced up what Indians cost...

Justify your assertion. You can hire IT-literate Indian graduates with excellent English and a knowledge of western business processes for $2 a day can you? Back up your assertion with evidence please.

I have indeed priced up the Indian alternative to me. If I have to compete with them, I think I should understand what they're offering?

Because sooner or later you'll become and inconvenience or you'll try and raise your price or not agree to their new, worse offer. Cut the crap and get rid of you now. Easier for them.

This is no different from being in direct employment. The world always turns my friend and this negotiation always goes on.

"Tossed aside" was your term. Not mine. So you're applying the same logic to your own argument? Just to be clear.

You introduced the term:

"You are there to be used by your employer. And when they're finished with you you'll be tossed aside as the rubbish they think you to be."

It is not possible for you to compete with Indian standards of living. Good luck deluding yourself into trying.

I'm not. We are not racing them to the bottom, they are racing us to the top. Their wage inflation continues apace (for skilled workers at least).

I have to accept that all businesses will try to reduce costs and if I am a cost to them I must think of innovative ways to get what I want, but still give them what they want (at the right price). Or become a revenue - i.e. help them win new business.

This is what improved productivity is about and all successful businesses must try to achieve it or see their business move to a competitor.

I don't think there's anything contentious about that is there?

[rentslave]

This must be the funiest post i have ever read on HPC , he has got to be making it up.

What's so funny?

People are being outsourced all the time, sometimes under their own steam.

It's easy to be sneering without putting up any intelligent argument.

[Guest absolutezero]

Justify your assertion. You can hire IT-literate Indian graduates with excellent English and a knowledge of western business processes for $2 a day can you? Back up your assertion with evidence please.

No. Maybe $2 is on the low side. All I know is they can do it cheaper than you - without the cumbersome employment rights and added costs that you have.

I have indeed priced up the Indian alternative to me. If I have to compete with them, I think I should understand what they're offering?

When will you be re-training then?

This is no different from being in direct employment. The world always turns my friend and this negotiation always goes on.

You introduced the term:

"You are there to be used by your employer. And when they're finished with you you'll be tossed aside as the rubbish they think you to be."

Perhaps. You seem unable to understand that someone who uses emotive words can be using a reasoned argument. You're very strange.

I'm not. We are not racing them to the bottom, they are racing us to the top. Their wage inflation continues apace (for skilled workers at least).

And our wage deflation continues apace. Can't you see it?

I have to accept that all businesses will try to reduce costs and if I am a cost to them I must think of innovative ways to get what I want, but still give them what they want (at the right price). Or become a revenue - i.e. help them win new business.

This is what improved productivity is about and all successful businesses must try to achieve it or see their business move to a competitor.

I don't think there's anything contentious about that is there?

Except your P45, no. Nothing.

[Guest absolutezero]

What's so funny?

People are being outsourced all the time, sometimes under their own steam.

It's easy to be sneering without putting up any intelligent argument.

We're still waiting for yours....

[rentslave]

That's because objectivity and 'thought-based' analysis goes down the pan when you, your family, friends or people you empathise with are losing their jobs. There's not much room for empathy in your thought-based world is there?

I suspect that Bush & Blair's decision to invade iraq was 'thought-based' since neither Ewan, Jenna nor Barbara would be on the front line.

Mass violence is rarely "thought based".

I have complete empathy with people who are losing their jobs (and have several friends facing it at the moment), but I'm going to help them by simply venting.

The use of overseas businesses to provide services and products for UK businesses will continue long into the future, so we must try and find new ways to earn our living.

As an economy we are too expensive and underskilled, but don't shoot the messenger

[Guest absolutezero]

As an economy we are too expensive and underskilled, but don't shoot the messenger

And with that clause you have signed your own professional death warrant. You agree with what I'm saying. Why argue?

[rentslave]

We're still waiting for yours....

Another sneering post without substance to back it up I see.

I think I've put up a fair few reasoned arguments. Am happy to be challenged if you have something substantive to add.

We're still waiting for your examples of skilled workers for $2 per day??

[Pindar]

The answer lies in government and over regulation. A business is a business. If it can't make a profit in one jurisdiction, it finds another one where it can. Governments have succeeded admirably in choking the life out of their hosts at gun point over the years. When the tax revenue finally bankrupts them, that's when things will start to change and a return to some semblance of sanity is seen.

[cybernoid]

Yeah sh1t happens, bummer huh.

But it has always been happening, how many of us are able to do the same work as our fathers or our grandfathers and make a living? In most cases technology has moved on, it wasn't that many generations ago that the fields were full of farm workers and that was how a lot of people put bread on the table. Mechanisation came along and things changed. Globalisation has come along and things are changing. Things change. The trick is to be in a place where you can make your way. That place changes from generation to generation and more recently from decade to decade.

It's change. Do something else. There isn't nothing to do, change itself requires people. If 'everything' is going off shore work in a company that's moving everything off shore. If 'robots' are going to be doing all our 'jobs' soon (that one was amusing) be a robot designer.

Roll with the changes, change what you do to what is required. Something is always required.

A difference this time in my view is that change is occurring more rapidly. We will have more than one career now. And what's wrong with that? Who want's to do the same thing all their life? Change can be positive.

[Guest absolutezero]

We're still waiting for your examples of skilled workers for $2 per day??

Been there. Done that.